Steve, Matt said: While it is certainly true that better and worse are two sides of the same coin, I find it difficult to think one is using a single, unified sense of the term denoted by "DQ" if one wants to say both 1) "DQ is reality and therefore both betterness and worseness" and 2) "DQ is the best." To say that all Pirsig was saying about evolution was that the best survive and the worst die, it seems to me, is to fall into the same meaninglessness Pirsig accused Dawinianian tautologists who say survivors survive.
DMB said: Well, first of all, you might want to separate the empirical claims from the historical, evolutionary claims. The sense of better and worse is something that occurs in the moment of experience while the survivors are the "best" products of that primary sense of value. In other words, this primary sense of value works to guide evolution while the best state is the goal toward which we are guided. Steve said: I think this comment is an important key to understanding the MOQ. I've thought for a while that there are two different perspectives that have to be kept in mind and kept distinct, and I'm glad that DMB has given them useful distinguishing labels: empirical and historical. Matt: This distinction, then, might be a profitable place to spend some time exploring and articulating. For instance, 1) Are we making a distinction between an _empirical claim_ and an _historical claim_? (DMB's words) 2) Are we making a distinction between an _empirical perspective_ and an _historical perspective_? (Steve's words) 3) What's the difference between a claim and a perspective? 4) Are we talking about two different _senses_ of the concept DQ? 5) What does it mean for a single concept to have _different_ senses and yet still be a single, unified concept? 6) What's the relationship between an "empirical/historical perspective" distinction and the "Dynamic/static" distinction (also commonly referred to as "perspectives")? For my part, I'm not sure what DMB exactly meant when he distinguished between the two kinds of _claims_ (aren't empirical claims claims about what's happened in real time, as it were?), and I'm not sure what you mean by distinguishing between two kinds of _perspectives_ (wouldn't viewing the world as experiential commit one to viewing it as an historical sequence of experiences?). The two dialectical moves are opaque to me and I'm not sure what else they would commit one to, nor what else they would enable one to do. Matt _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
