Andre to Ron: The inorganic level is patterned according to the laws of physics, the organic level is patterned according to the laws of nature etc etc. this seems to me to be a participatory process of DQ/SQ not intellect 'on its own' (otherwise you'd get into an idealist frame n'est pas?).
John, muttering and grumbling] I don't see what's so wrong with an idealistic framework... Andre: John,the last thing I want you to do is mutter and grumble. What is wrong with the idealist framework? Nothing really, but the MoQ has, supposedly, done away with the 'it all springs from the mind/ it all springs from matter dichotomy. In Annotation 102 Pirsig appears to be favouring the idealist stance which says that objects grow out of ideas. This seems to contradict everything he has so painstakingly tried to get, and stay away from. This 'reduces' the ineffable Quality to JUST an idea and all the evidences gathered, the reductio ad absurdum, the link with arete (as the social 'expression' of Quality), prior to the emergence of the intellectual level, his 'battle' with Aristotles as somewhat artificial. The entire power of ZMM annihilated! Imho, this turn towards idealism as a way of integrating the MoQ with science significantly weakens the MoQ as it becomes a SOM flavoured soup with an indirect reference to Quality (as in: 'Oh, by the way, can we use this idea of quality somewhere or will we leave it for now and wait 'till it's more convenient?') It becomes JUST one intellectual PoV amongst many. Yes, the picture in the gallery metaphor, side by side. BUT they are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SIDE BY SIDE, they are SUPPOSED TO BE INTEGRATED! SOM is supposed to be ABSORBED by the MoQ. To be consistent (and understandable and clear and powerful and harmonious) the MoQ should apply to all. To wit: all levels (at both inter and intra level). Whether one is talking about or meddling in the inorganic level, organic level, social level or intellectual level. To reduce the MoQ to a static,idealist PoV paralizes it and we are back to square one (i.e SOM). But, as Platt often says: I could be wrong. Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
