hating men again today?
----- Original Message ----
From: X Acto <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:36:17 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Quality is Appreciation in Value
yes certainly
and I try and overlook yours
----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:21:18 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Quality is Appreciation in Value
And of course, Ron, one is suppose to overlook your sloppy, shabby and rude
posts?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [MD] Quality is Appreciation in Value
That certainly was a real surprise, Bo I could write your responses for
you.
I read Lilas child recently and you used to be so much more
"present" you'd get all over Doug for wanting to add levels, you were
articulate
and diplomatic, now you're sloppy, shabby and rude. Hard to believe
You are one and the same.
----- Original Message ----
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:46:15 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Quality is Appreciation in Value
Andre and Ron
28 Sep.:
Andre had said::
> I am beginning to wonder to what extent the intellectual level
> dominates the play in patterning the undifferentiated? Just laterally
> drifting.
Intellect is the highest and best "patterner". However, if intellect is
"patterning the undifferentiated" ? IMO it re-patterns all lower levels'
pattern in its own subject/object matrix. I feel that many treat DQ like
junkies, the dynamic experience is a "bad trip" like the one that
Phaedrus made and came back with the Quality, not to be pursued
unduly.
Ron adds:
> Andre, I think this is one of the more difficult parts of Pirsigs MoQ
> to understand
Amen, wish you would some day ;-)
> The four levels spring from the intellectual. inorganic,organic and
> social are intellectual patterns of value, the intellectual level, is
> an intellectual pattern of value.
The four level spring from intellect!? Nonsense, SQ springs from DQ.
Yours is the pesky mind-intellect where everything exists as ideas,
SOM to the core.
The intellectual level an intellectual pattern? Have you heard about
putting the wagon before the horse. In this reasoning the (total) Quality
Metaphysics - that has the 4th. level as a subset - is contained inside a
sub-set of this subset? A little "container logic" would do wonders!
> Pirsig gives an example of how the four levels may be used in an SOM
> context, that is, objective scientific realism, ie: atoms can be
> thought of as "prefering" their bonds, and so on. How looking at
> objective reality in this manner, in terms of value, can explain alot
> more in terms of an evolutionary (SOM) context. It explains familiar
> concepts in new ways.
This way of using the MOQ is futile. "Give unto Science what
Science's is ...etc" Science is the intellectual LEVEL's foremost
pattern and better perform its splendid job without interference from
the MOQ whose purpose is infinitely greater. It's like a head of state
interfering at the army platoon level. Hitler did an luckily lost the war.
> But the main revealation the MoQ brings to the table, is that
> experience can be differentiated and interpreted in many different
> ways. The paintings in a gallery metaphor he uses, the ability of the
> "gestault shift" to see one painting two different ways. How "sanity"
> and culture are an agreement of looking at that particular painting in
> one particular way and discounting all others. Creating a blindness to
> other patterns and interpretations.
More well-meaning nonsense. Do you think inorganic and biological
and social patterns freely shifts between different "worldviews"? Again
SOM's mind-intellect that can shift between different ideas. The 4th.
Q-level is STATIC and its patterns are invariably S/O orientated.
> If one adheres to the first example, then you have an MoQ steeped in
> SOM What Bo would call SOL the "true" MoQ, which still sees reality in
> terms of one particular viewpoint and "substance" still survives in
> the form of DQ/SQ.
The MOQ is a metaphysics whose basic axiom is the DQ/SQ
constellation, that has nothing to do with "substance". Pirsig at times
calls SOM "a substance metaphysics". Don't get too smart.
> If one adheres to the second realization, one embarks on a journey of
> a radical nature. A journey of value and meaning with the abilty to
> shift from many points of view and perspectives, finding meaning and
> value from a much richer array. Overcoming "stuck-ness" and gumption
> traps...this second way accepts the first method and does not reject
> much of anything other than it's absolute-ness in thought, the belief
> that there is one and only one true way to interpret experience. The
> "Gods eye" view.
If THAT free you have to abandon the MOQ as well and I think you
have done so long ago.
Bodvar
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