Andre, Ron, All. 28 Dec.: > Andre says he is not impatient with Ron.
OK. if you say so. Ron: > A metaphysics of Quality is a value centered metaphysics not > logic centered. As Andre notes, logic has value, but logic is not > required for a value centered reality. Andre > I agree Ron, with some clarification. Logic and rationality are SOM > products. Aristotelian dialectics (I think) encompasses both? and with > Aristotle, 'our scientific understanding of reality was born'.(ZMM). > In this sense they carry loads of historical garbage same as e.g. the > Christian 'God". Formal logic in the "if A=B, then B=A " sense is truly a SOM product, but this applied before the intellectual level, and ancient (social level) people knew that through calculation, and that this works for animals too is plain as displayed by their striking intelligence. NB! "2+2=4" is no dynamic data that can be changed ... just to forestall any "Newton" counter-argument. Rationality in the "objective-over-subjective" sense however is no SOM product but IS THE SUBJECT/OBJECT METAPHYSICS itself .... as you note in the "...with Aristotle our scientific (rational) understanding was born". Garbage is definitely NOT intellect's "load", it's the highest and best static level. It's "sin" while SOM was that of postulating the S/O distinction to be existences fundament that has grave implications. BTW The momothist God isn't Christian but a Jewish entity that Jesus started the undermining of by his Intellectual foray into the (social) Semitic heartland. > SOM logic and rationality work and have worked remarkably well at the > inorganic and, to some small extent at the organic level where , at > the same time, they have wreaked havoc (destruction, extinction and > pollution to name but a few). SOM-Intellect adopted intelligence (which is logic applied) and its "objective-over-subjective" rationality became the most logical fact ever encountered, just as the "god-created-and-run-existence" was (still is the) the most logical conclusion at the social level. > The logic the MoQ refers to is the logic Pirsig uses in Lila. It is > Quality inspired and Quality/Harmony seeking. Attempting to reach a > deeper understanding of the static puzzles our environment throws up. The logic that the MOQ applies is exactly the same logic or intelligence that have soldiered on for all Q-levels up through the ages, but it works under new premises and will now reach Q-results ... the day when you folks start to apply it, but you seem deep in SOM's premises. > As far as I am concerned SOM logic and its rationality is used to > find, exploit, control and (ab)use... .Just look at the social, > intellectual and spiritual crisis we are in. > LILA uses the logic of the koan which is used to 'liberate' to free > up'' static patterns in an effort to move closer to DQ. > In this sense I am beginning to understand Pirsig's description of the > intellectual level as the 'skilled manipulation of abstract symbols > that have no corresponding particular experience and which behave > according to rules of their own' ( Letter to Paul Turner). > Given the value centeredness of the MoQ it pre-supposes an interaction > between 'manipulator' and 'manipulated'. When Quality is the sought > after outcome, let the rules be decided as part of the process as you > go along. Perhaps to be thought about and written up, after the > outcome has been achieved. > As John mentioned and as stated in Reanney, logic can/ should be used > as a tool...never as a guide. > Am not sure if I'm making much sense. No, this is the sorriest post I've seen for a long time, but you could of course not resist Ron "agreement" bait. Bodvar before: > 2 and 2 is 4 in social-steeped cultures as it is in intellect-steeped > dittos, there are even animals that can count so logic - AKA > intelligence - is used by the biological level too. Andre: > My foot it is. The only 'intelligence' used at the biological level is > the one called the laws of the jungle. OK, you are having a tantrum, be my guest. As long as none of this attacks the MOQ I'm happy. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
