Greetings Ham, I am not sure I understand what you are stating. I am calling unpatterned experience or direct experience, as I understand, maybe mistakenly, Ant's quote to suggest, experience without patterns of interpretation. The MoQ has the experience (value) coming before the projection of the observer and the object, and I find that one need not necessarily project them at all.
I choose 'unpatterned experience' as not to embellish the experience in any way. And best wishes to you too for this upcoming year. Marsha On Dec 28, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Ham Priday wrote: > > On Dec 28, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Marsha V. wrote: > >> Greetings Ham, >> >> Can there be experience _without_ picking up the thread of >> mental chatter or an analytical thread? Yes! Ant's statement >> is perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. It seems more a matter >> of awareness of such experiences. >> >> "Immediate experience is experience where there is no distinction >> between what is experienced and the act of experiencing itself." >> -- [Anthony McWatt: Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality] > > What you redundantly praise as "perfect" is the fact that Ant's statement > applies to ALL experience. The "immediate" act of experience and the > awareness of something are one and the same phenomenon. Likewise, being > aware is contingent upon a cognizant observer and a referent object. > Experiential reality is a dualism of value-sensibility (subjective awareness) > and objectivized being (otherness). > > You'll note that Pirsig and I agree that the ground of_existence_is Value > (Quality). But value-sensibility is_our_essence, not the Essence of Reality. > We do not "experience" Value directly. Value must be realized (made > sensible) by an independent agent in order to exist (to be experienced as > finite phenomena). And, since Existence is differentiated from Value in the > "act" or process of experience, Existence and Essence are not synomous. > > Pirsig's "metaphysics" never transcended existence. His Quality hierarchy is > based entirely on the experiential (phenomenal) realm Euphemizing physical > existence as experienced patterns of Dynamic Quality does not eliminate > subject/object duality. > > Thanks, Marsha. And best wishes for the new year, > Ham > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > >> Epistemologically, experience is clearly both an "act" (which is itself >> differentiated) and the cognizant awareness of "distinctions" or patterns. >> I call experience the process of "objectivizing", and I distinguish it from >> value-sensibility which is primary to experience and esthetic or >> emotional (rather than "intellectual") in nature. Unfortunately, MoQ's >> author failed to make this distinction. >> >> But more important to philosophy, I think, is the concept that existence >> is a differentiated reality in which All is perceived as "each and every" >> by a subject in relation to its object(s). Every moment, every experience, >> every thought, every idea is differentiated from every other. And the >> substantive ground of this reality is the Value from which we are each >> estranged at birth. We can experience and know only what we construct >> from this Value -- good, bad, or indifferent. >> >> Yet, the fact that this pluralistic construction is not chaotic but has an >> order >> (or "intelligence", if you will) that is universally apprehended and >> appreciated >> strongly implies a creative source that transcends all difference and >> otherness. >> Although Mr. Pirsig would like us to think of this source as DQ, I cannot >> accept Quality as an absolute. Quality for me is only the valuistic >> "realization" >> of otherness, and it requires a sensible agent. We are all "One in Essence". >> The source I propose is uncreated, unconditional, and beyond experience. >> It is the essential "not-other" from which the appearance of otherness is >> derived. >> >> Essentially yours, >> Ham > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
