John, And this is why I call my understanding of Quality, unpatterned experience and patterned experience, and not Dynamic Quality and static quality, although I can very easily equate patterned experience with static patterns of value. I have only been talking about how I (conventional i) relate to some, what i find to be interesting, experiences.
There's a very religious snake tattooed on my wrist that will bite you if you get too close. Marsha On Jan 27, 2010, at 1:26 AM, John Carl wrote: > I like patterns too, Marsha. Realizing a pattern that you've never noticed > before, or like when Pirsig noticed patterns that nobody noticed before, > that's the biggest thrill there is. Better than a roller coaster ride. > > "Realization" describes it. What a fascinating thing, real-izing. Before > realization, an amorphous, undifferentiated bunch of nonsense suddenly > "makes sense" - becomes real. The Conceptualization of the Elephant by the > Blind, is a realization. > > Perhaps your realization of unpatterned value was important and valuable to > you because it gave you part of "the big picture" that was previously > missing. That would make sense to me. Positing such as the basis of > being, as some are wont to do, does not. If I seem overly critical of > "unpatterned awareness" that you are talking about, it is not as > experience, but the basis of experience that I have problems with it. > > And you gotta admit, the analogy of Snake-handlin' religious frenzy was kind > of amusing, All things considered. > > Oblivion. A nice place to visit but I wouldn't wanna be FROM there. > > > John > > > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:38 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Hi John, >> >> I said my train of thoughts went straight to oblivion, not my awareness. >> It was interesting. >> >> I like patterns, John, especially Bach and Haydn on my iPod. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 26, 2010, at 7:57 PM, John Carl wrote: >> >>> And back to the issue, How is oblivious experience at all preferable or >>> reccomendable over awareness? >>> >>> Pragmatic John >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:21 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How about this? I pulled a switch and instead of going through >> awareness, >>>> the train of thoughts went straight to oblivion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:04 AM, MarshaV wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> I'm not a religious person and have no idea what a religious experience >>>> would be. >>>>> >>>>> For weeks it felt like something was going to happen, like my mind was >>>> squinting, or something, and then it happened. It was visual. I was >> seeing >>>> but their were no thoughts in my head, but I was aware. It was seeing, >> but >>>> not seeing anything. It lasted about 5 minutes, no less, but I don't >> know >>>> for sure. I was flabbergasted because it was so obvious. OMG, >> unpatterned >>>> experience!!! Or, OMG I was totally aware without thinking. And then I >>>> began not to believe my own experience, so I did on my own. Naturally, >> I >>>> was excited. The next day I did it again of my own volition. I was >>>> overjoyed, of course. It was wonderful. It was amazing. I tried it >> again >>>> about a week later, and made it happen, but I haven't tried it since, >> which >>>> is sad. Life interfered, or more probably I'm lazy and ungrateful. But >> it >>>> was "real". Yet it's no big deal; it's what naturally happens. I >> guess. >>>> Oh, I don't know; I don't know anything. >>>>> >>>>> I do not often enough sit in meditation, but do try to keep a >> mindfulness >>>> throughout my day. I think there is a relationship, but I'm guessing. >> I >>>> had a very formal meditation practice for a few years and was able to >> watch >>>> my thoughts. I have no trouble saying that's watching patterns flicker >>>> through mind, and that is why I go on about Quality (unpatterned >> experience >>>> and patterned experience); both have been experienced. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe you'll think I have just described indigestion. Maybe if I >> hadn't >>>> had such experiences I'd think the same thing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> unMarsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 7:58 PM, John Carl wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> sounds almost like a religious experience Marsha. Did it feel that >> way? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:26 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was teasing. It never happened while I was formally >>>>>>> meditating. I don't know why or how it happened, but >>>>>>> it did. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:21 PM, MarshaV wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, the 'idea' would be a pattern, but an experience >>>>>>>> need not be patterned. Instead of tenderness, try a >>>>>>>> little meditation. Or, you once offered to hit me on the >>>>>>>> back of the head with a 2x4, may I offer to do the same >>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:03 PM, John Carl wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you mean I'd find unpatterned experience in Jane Austen? I've >>>> read a >>>>>>>>> couple of hers, and I have no idea what would qualify. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In fact, the very idea that anything could qualify as unpatterned, >> is >>>> a >>>>>>>>> pattern. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm just too metaphysically picky. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:16 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2010, at 12:04 PM, John Carl wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There's no such thing as >>>>>>>>>>> "un-patterned experience" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are such experiences, but not for you. And I'm sure it >>>>>>>>>> is being studied as a attribute of meditation.. I bet you might >>>>>>>>>> find something in books by James Austin. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the >>>> stars... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the >> stars... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>>> Archives: >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
