Thank you Marsha, and John I am feeling better, but wow, you guys are hard to keep up with. The purpose of this thread is to show just how much the God/creator pattern has worked for you and is working now, whether you are aware of it or not.
I know nothing about you though, so I'm speaking about those who live in the Western world, and particularly, in America. But wherever you live, in whatever culture in whatever society, you live under the influence of ideas about God. You live somewhere governed by law .Even in using the internet, or google, their are restrictions if you live in China or Iraq, for example. You can't avoid it. Legal norms, ethical norms, political institutions are based in philosophical ideas that are based in theological ideas. One example, when Martin Luther King Jr., writing from a Birmingham jail, said, and this is a paraphrase from memory, "When those young people in the South sat down in the restaurants they were standing up for the best in....... in what, what were they standing up for. This part I remember for sure. Did he say they were standing up for the best in the tradition of Zen Buddhism, No. Did he say they were standing up for the best in R Prisig's MOQ, No. Did he say they were standing up for the best in secular humanism? No. Did he say they were standing up for the best in the Native American tradition, the Zuni, Zoroastrian, Islamic, or secular humanist, tradition, or for the tradition of static and Dynamic patterns, or the Tao, or Neoplatonism or of Pragmatism? No!!! No, he said they were standing up for the best in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, and our Declaration of Independence. And he was right! So in addition to Joseph Campbell, we have MLK saying the same thing. And what about the early black abolitionist David Walker, and Mariaha Stewart. Before the civil war they made they said exactly the same and connected likewise, with our Declaration of Independence. And John, I haven't time now but we will get to Needham in due course and find see that he too gives supporting evidence to this argument. So maybe we could back up and look at different world views and then trace their effects on the culture. Freedom didn't arise out of thin air, nor from the head of Zeus or the mind of the Greeks. Tyranny has been the default condition for most of human history. When it was finally overcome it was the result of a very specific belief system. And Marsha everyone Deifies something. Prisig clearly deifies quality, and gives it the power of creation and even says its synonymous with Perfection, and one time the Tao. And yes John, this is a varied group, but many do seem to have a cult like mentality regarding moq. That's ok, we still have freedom of speech and choice in many places in the West, for now. But it is rapidly slipping away, already abridged many places in the West as the West has become de-Christianized, and adopted an Eastern world view, which is at the root of the moq. Thanks, Jon On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:12 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > I hope you're feeling better. > > I've watched a couple of the Joseph Campbell PBS series, and > found them very interesting, but I do not consider Campbell an > expert. I think he has collected some wonderful information, but I > would not rely on his opinion as the definitive authority. He does > offer some interesting possibilities, but maybe his opinions say > more about Mr. Campbell than the cultures he describes. > > And sorry the god/creator pattern doesn't work for me either. > > > Marsha > > > > On Apr 20, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > > > Hi Again Marsha, et. al.. > > > > Sorry to be so long getting back, haven't been feeling so good. > > > > Anyway, I thought I would start a separate thread for this topic. I want > to > > discuss where such ideas about static/dyn quality lead to politically. > And I > > will show, that they have in the past, and inevitably always will lead to > > tyrannical regimes once they become the world view of the whole culture. > > The issues of political freedom, the respect for human rights, including > > women's rights and civil rights did not emerge from such a world view as > the > > moq, and it is indeed alien to the recognition of such rights. > > > > I'm sure many on the list are ffamiliar with the work of Joseph Campbell. > > his work is very supportive of Eastern thought, and Prisig's views. > Surely > > you will admit he is knowledgeable of the cultures and myths of the > world, > > and is an expert in comparative mythology. > > > > Consider this quote from his book Myths to Live By. This is how the > chapter > > "The Separation of East and West" > > > > "It is not easy for Westerners to realize that the ideas recently > developed > > in the West of the individual, his selfhood, his rights, and his freedom, > > have no meaning whatsoever in the Orient. They had no meaning for > primitive > > man. They would have meant nothing to the peoples of the early > Mesopotamian, > > Egyptian, Chinese, or Indian civilizations. They are, in fact, repugnant > to > > the ideals, the aims and orders of life, of most of the peoples of this > > earth. And yet, and here is my second point,they are the truly great "new > > thing" that we do indeed represent to the world and that constitutes our > > Occidental revelation of a properly human spiritual ideal, true to the > > highest potentiality of our species." > > > > You have freedom, even the freedom to read these words, not because you > were > > envisioned as a static pattern continually being transformed by a dynamic > > pattern. This includes the freedom not to be arrested at will, dragged > from > > your house and imprisoned or tortured for your thoughts and speech-and > all > > the other freedoms and rights you enjoy and take for granted. These > rights > > did not arise and were not acknowledged in the East where moq ideas were > > prevalent. > > > > You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in the very > image > > of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these rights because > your > > life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a dynamic pattern, > but > > a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, personal and > > political. > > > > Thanks, > > Jon > > > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 4:18 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> Greetings Jon, > >> > >> > >> On Apr 17, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >> > >>> MarshaV, > >>> Again Marshsa, how do you determine reality. > >> > >> The word 'determine' suggest how I think about reality, and I do think > >> about reality, but reality is experience: unpatterned experiences > >> and patterned experiences. I am not elevating a gut feeling, but > >> reporting actual experiences as best I can without exaggeration. > >> > >> > >>> What is your epistemology. > >> > >> Knowledge is unpatterned and direct, and conceptually based on the > >> patterns of the past. > >> > >> > >>> Did you arrive at the definition of reality given below through the > >>> use of your reason, your senses, or did you have a revelation > >>> from "quality". > >> > >> All of the above and some insight gained through meditation. > >> > >> > >>> Or did you get this definition from the revealed truth of another, who > >> wrote > >>> it in a book. > >> > >> Certainly I have gained wisdom from exploring the words of others, RMP's > >> most explicitly, but I have read some very, very profound Buddhist > texts > >> too, > >> and there is meditation, and mindfulness. BUT, I have had some simple > >> unpatterned experiences that demonstrate, first hand, the truth of the > >> wisdom. > >> > >> > >> > >>>> From a political standpoint, let me say unequivocally, absolutely, as > an > >>> objective truth, fact or whatever you choose to call it, that the > rights > >> of > >>> man, individual liberty, including their protection in law, and > political > >>> institutions that protect them, did not and could not ever have arisen > >> from > >>> such a definition of reality as you have just given. > >> > >> What you list are static patterns of value, relative truths. But I do > not > >> accept > >> that 'relative' implies 'equal'. The spovs you mention have proved to > have > >> high > >> value because of their usefulness, and they tend to promote individual > >> freedom. > >> The MoQ has a hierarchical structure of levels which assigns patterns > >> within > >> each level more value then patterns within the levels below. > >> > >> > >>> To the contrary, you have defined reality in a way that invites, and > has > >>> historically resulted, in tyranny. Ideas have consequences. > >> > >> Patterns (ideas) do have consequences, and I believe the most important > >> understanding is the nature of all patterns. While a pattern may belong > to > >> a > >> discrete level, it is not independent, autonomous phenomenon or > >> concept, but an ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent occurrence. > >> > >> My stress in defining reality is always on the nature of patterns, > because > >> it seems to be that it is by mistaking patterns to be independent "real" > >> entities great harm and confusion is created. It's SOM, subject/object > >> thinking, versus the > >> MoQ, and I'm stressing the nature of patterns as quality. I'm trying > to, > >> anyway. > >> > >> To understand the nature of patterns is to gain wisdom and freedom, not > >> tyranny. > >> > >> > >> Marsha > >> > >> > >>> Reality is Quality(Dynamic Quality(unpatterned experience)/static > >>> quality(patterned experience(inorganic,biological,social&intellectual > >>> patterns))) > >>> > >>> So what do you have in mind for Truth with a capital T? Or are you > >> talking > >>> about politics with a small t? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Marsha > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 17, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi MarshaV, > >>>>> > >>>>> I am interested in Truth with a capital T, as Francis Shcaeffer would > >>>> say. > >>>>> Much to be said on this, but for starters, its not truth as I or as > you > >>>> or > >>>>> as anybody wishes it. It's Truth that IS regardless of what you think > >>>> about > >>>>> it, or if you even understand or perceive it. > >>>>> > >>>>> The first thing that strikes me about our current crisis of truth, is > >>>> that > >>>>> we should even ask what it means. Would you ask what a lie means, > what > >>>>> deceit, falsehood, or error means. But we are in such a crisis and > that > >>>> is > >>>>> what P's books address. > >>>>> > >>>>> Political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, the > >>>>> understanding of human rights and the laws that protect these did not > >>>> arise > >>>>> out of a vacuum, out of a nothingness. They arose out of a very > >> specific > >>>>> understanding of Truth, with a capital T. And the elimination, the > >> denial > >>>> of > >>>>> those freedoms and rights, arise out of a specific "understanding" , > >>>> truly a > >>>>> misunderstanding of truth, as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Even the understanding of an individual, whether an individual human > >>>> being, > >>>>> or individual human rights, or individual laws that protect and > >> preserve > >>>>> them, or the idea of an individual thing or entity, are based in > >>>>> philosophical and ultimately theological assumptions. > >>>>> > >>>>> The very reason I am free to write and you are free to read these > >> words, > >>>> is > >>>>> based on just such philosophical and theological assumptions that > were > >>>>> extended to moral, legal, and political institutions. > >>>>> > >>>>> And where different assumptions prevail we would not be able to speak > >> so > >>>>> freely. All cultures, religions, and philosophies do not lead to the > >> same > >>>>> understanding and protections of human rights and individual > liberties. > >>>>> > >>>>> That is why we should seek a genuine, a True understanding of history > >> and > >>>>> the ideas behind it. And why we should work out our paradigms with > >> "fear > >>>> and > >>>>> trembling". > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Jon > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:43 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hello Jon, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 16, 2010, at 11:57 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> But beyond this-what makes something good anyway? What makes > >> something > >>>>>> just. > >>>>>>> You must start by telling me your epistemology. You must have a > valid > >>>> way > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>> knowing truth, or you are playing a wishing game. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What type of truth are you wishing for? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And without such a reliable foundation, someone will impose their > >> truth > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>> you, and take away your liberty. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And in the light of truth as you wish it, how is this statement > true? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marsha > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _ > >> > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
