Hey Jon, I promised to get back to you, but I'm easily distracted.
The one charge you made that's been ringing in my ears, is that the MoQ is a cult. Hopefully you're past that impression by now, as anybody who spends more than a week with this list would surely surmise. There's way too much chaotic diversity of opinion to be a cult. Thank goodness. On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Jon Bennett <[email protected]> wrote: > I want to > discuss where such ideas about static/dyn quality lead to politically. Now that's a good idea. > And I > will show, that they have in the past, and inevitably always will lead to > tyrannical regimes once they become the world view of the whole culture. > Huh? You accord "such ideas about static/dyn quality" much more significance or instantiation than is reasonable. We're talking the MoQ, right? A propositional metaphysics derived from the writings of Robert Pirsig? It hasn't even formed properly, much less become the world view of any partial or whole cultures. yet. > The issues of political freedom, the respect for human rights, including > women's rights and civil rights did not emerge from such a world view as > the > moq, and it is indeed alien to the recognition of such rights. > > It is true those events did not occur from the vantage of the MoQ, Rather, the MoQ is an intellectual tool of understanding those events from a certain enlightened viewpoint, right? And according to the principles of the MoQ, those movements happened as a response to DQ, a movement toward freedom that shows the evolutionary pulling power toward better Quality patterns. > I'm sure many on the list are ffamiliar with the work of Joseph Campbell. > I've got one of his books on my shelf that I've cracked open. I can't say I'm all that crazy about him and the whole intellectualization of the mythos that he does. I mean, I know we all do it, but somehow to my mind he reminds me of the bon-bon lip smacker of ZAMM fame who has killed that which he murders to dissect. I like Jacob Needleman a lot better. Same insights, more poetry. his work is very supportive of Eastern thought, and Prisig's views. Surely > you will admit he is knowledgeable of the cultures and myths of the world, > and is an expert in comparative mythology. > > Yeah, in a superficial academic way. > Consider this quote from his book Myths to Live By. This is how the chapter > "The Separation of East and West" > > "It is not easy for Westerners to realize that the ideas recently developed > in the West of the individual, his selfhood, his rights, and his freedom, > have no meaning whatsoever in the Orient. They had no meaning for primitive > man. They would have meant nothing to the peoples of the early > Mesopotamian, > Egyptian, Chinese, or Indian civilizations. They are, in fact, repugnant to > the ideals, the aims and orders of life, of most of the peoples of this > earth. And yet, and here is my second point,they are the truly great "new > thing" that we do indeed represent to the world and that constitutes our > Occidental revelation of a properly human spiritual ideal, true to the > highest potentiality of our species." > > Thanks for the quote. It's a good illustration of why I don't care for him. This idea of "the west" is important, but therefore we should look into it more deeply. What is meant by "the west"? America is west of europe, but the native peoples of America are west of New York. Many of the ideas of the individual and freedom that you proclaim here, did not come solely from the great white fathers over the sea to the benighted savages of America. This is a classic misunderstanding and one of the things Pirsig plainly spells out in Lila ( you really oughta read it) But this unique synthesis of the rights of the individual from the native tribes of America, combined with the european intellectual ideas of individual rights, came together in a mixing crucible in the new world and it is this mixture and synthesis which produced a new thing in the world and influenced movements which became what Campbell is refering to as "the west". You have freedom, even the freedom to read these words, not because you were > envisioned as a static pattern continually being transformed by a dynamic > pattern. I have this freedom, because those who went before me valued freedom enough to work and sacrifice for it. DQ is just another term for freedom. Freedom is an analogic term for DQ in the social and intellectual levels. > This includes the freedom not to be arrested at will, dragged from > your house and imprisoned or tortured for your thoughts and speech-and all > the other freedoms and rights you enjoy and take for granted. These rights > did not arise and were not acknowledged in the East where moq ideas were > prevalent. > > The earth is round, ya know. Which "east" are you talking about? The London-sent military? The native tribes that were here, that evolved social patterns recognizing individual rights and the rights of women came originally from what europeans call "the east", even tho to us, Asia is west of here. > You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in the very image > of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these rights because your > life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a dynamic pattern, but > a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, personal and > political. > > Well, it sounds like you got all your certainties defined and in your pocket, Jon. Ready to whip out and inflict upon the heathen at a moment's notice. Whether they ask for conversion or not. Now I myself have plenty of experience with religion and religious discussion. It don't bother me none, but another of my intellectual heros, Josiah Royce, points out that there is a vital distinction between religion and philosophy in that philosophy has to be free of dogmatism in order to be vital and alive. Can you comprehend that vital distinction and discuss ideas open-mindedly? Cuz if not, I don't think you're going to be very happy here. But hey, good luck with it. I hope you stick around. We could use a real die-hard theist or two, just for some more "Varities of Religious Experience" to choose from. ya know? John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
