dmb, an all, Someone teach me how to do the quoting thing in a reply. What's the secret.
Let's back up and try to define our terms a bit more, and look more carefully at world views, and the ideas behind them, so we can trace their influence. The Enlightenment is actually a very sticky-wicket to define. And there were different phases in different countries. In the early stages the Enlightenment was based on Christian theism, and later became quite atheistic, of course, in France and elswhere. But there were at least 2 Enlightenments,a French-German and a Anglo-American. Furthermore, the Enlightenment was not as influential in America's formative years. So I'd like to see you present some evidence dmb, for your and Pirsig's claim (and Campbell would agree with you) that human rights, democracy, were grounded in Enlightenment thought. One source I would reccomend to you is Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind". There's a chapter in there called "Two Revolutions Two States of Nature", describing the philosophical and political differences between the French and American revolutions. The American revolution was more strongly influenced by the thought of Montesquei, and Burke and the Bible, specifically, the book of Deutoronomy. The American revolution and political institutions were strongly influenced by both the first and second great awakenings and their grounding in and return to the ideas of the Protestant Reformation. Even if you claim the Deism of the Enlightenment as an influence on these rights, and freedom this is still a far cry away from what Pirsig is proposing with his Moq, which you, yourself claim as anti-theistic Even for the Deist like Jefferson the unalienable rights of man, his freedom, was endowed by a Creator, not by static or dynamic patterns of quality. Also, Pirsig talks out of both sides of his mouth. Or more to the point has such a lose philosophy that he can stretch and distort it to meet his fancy or fantasy, or whim as the case may be. That's why I think it is flaky and deceitful. Even from and eastern perspective there is a saying Lao Tzu walks in the woods, Confucius in society. Moq is closer to Taoism, not the moral structure of Confucius. Pirsig, and his philosophy, like all philosophies that deny the Creator-creation distinction, try to have their cake, and not eat it too! This is the fate of all philosophies that focus only on the creation. They all have two oscillating principles that forever switch back and forth. I'd like to also point out and develop in another post how moq and all other such systems that are based on two fundamental principles, really favor only one of these principles-not both! This is where and how they deceive. For these principles say static and dynamic quality are not just ways the world is believed to be, they are ways of VIEWING the world. And there is no one view that truly incorportates both views. On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:00 PM, david buchanan <[email protected]>wrote: > > Jon said: > The issues of political freedom, the respect for human rights, including > women's rights and civil rights did not emerge from such a world view as the > moq, and it is indeed alien to the recognition of such rights. > > dmb says: > > Well, the ideas about human rights and political freedom emerged from > Enlightenment philosophers. The MOQ supports these ideas quite vigorously > and explicitly, although for different reasons than the original thinkers > might have. "Freedom of speech; freedom of assembly, of travel; trial by > jury; habeas corpus; government by consent - these 'human rights' are all > intellectual-vs-society issues. According to the Metaphysics of Quality > these 'human rights' have not just a sentimental basis, but a rational, > metaphysical basis. They are essential to the evolution of a higher level of > life from a lower level of life. They are for real." (Lila 307) > Jon said: > I'm sure many on the list are familiar with the work of Joseph Campbell. > his work is very supportive of Eastern thought, and Prisig's views. Surely > you will admit he is knowledgeable of the cultures and myths of the world, > and is an expert in comparative mythology. > > > dmb says: > > Yea, I'm a big fan. In Lila, Pirsig recommend's Joseph Campbell's "Masks of > God". He says if you really want to understand what the social level is all > about, that's the book to read. Notice how Campbell echoes what Pirsig just > said about rights and freedom where he says, "they are the truly great "new > thing" that we do indeed represent to the world and that constitutes our > Occidental revelation of a properly human spiritual ideal, true to the > highest potentiality of our species". > > > > Jon said: > > You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in the very image > of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these rights because your > life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a dynamic pattern, but > a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, personal and > political. > > > > dmb says: > > > Definitely disagree with you there. As you just saw, Pirsig thinks that our > rights and freedoms have a rational, evolutionary basis. The MOQ is not > theistic generally and in some ways it is even anti-theistic. Based on your > apparent commitments to such beliefs, I suspect you won't find much comfort > in the MOQ. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with > Hotmail. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
