Wow John, how cool! Yes, that book and the making of a counter culture have influenced me too, but in a different direction I imagine.
We must get into Where the Wasteland Ends, I was going to get to it eventually. He, too, like Pirsig, like Husserl defines and describes the problem, the crisis of the West, very well. I just think they point to the wrong solution. Thanks for the link and your comments. I hope you registered, or soon will for the blog. Make a comment or a post when the spirit strikes. http://www.thelovingorganization.com/crisis/ Pick it up tomorrow sometime, Sleep well, Jon ** On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 1:13 AM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, Thanks for that link to the summer of love, I got to meet Theodore > Roszak who's Where the Wasteland Ends, was a big influence in my life. > > > I stumbled across a link I thought you'd find interesting and since one > good > turn deserves another... > > > from http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_4_oh_to_be.html > > "The thinness of the new atheism is evident in its approach to our > civilization, which until recently was religious to its core. To regret > religion is, in fact, to regret our civilization and its monuments, its > achievements, and its legacy. And in my own view, the absence of religious > faith, provided that such faith is not murderously intolerant, can have a > deleterious effect upon human character and personality. If you empty the > world of purpose, make it one of brute fact alone, you empty it (for many > people, at any rate) of reasons for gratitude, and a sense of gratitude is > necessary for both happiness and decency. For what can soon, and all too > easily, replace gratitude is a sense of entitlement. Without gratitude, it > is hard to appreciate, or be satisfied with, what you have: and life will > become an existential shopping spree that no product satisfies. > > > The obligation of gratitude is sufficient to drive the self-obsessed mad." > > > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Jon Bennett <[email protected]> wrote: > > > dmb and all, > > > > I accidentally sent the last message before I was finished. I was saying > > that these principles are ways the world is, and ways of viewing the > world > > and that no one view really can fully incorporate both views, as Pirsig > > claims. Pirsig favors dynamic quality, just as the I Ching with its two > > fundamental principles, favors yin, or the change principles. > > > > Both these systems, moq and the I Ching, are essentially the same thing. > > Both favor the changing, dynamic, becoming principle. > > They both incorporate a weaker version of the other principle, but not as > > it > > would exist in a truly static, or yang system of thought. It's called > after > > all the book of changes, not the book of the changeless, or static, for a > > reason. > > > > This division is the same basic division you see in all eastern thought, > > and > > neoplatonism. It is the Apollo and Dionysius split of the Greeks. We see > > the > > Greek religious ground motive of the flowing river of dynamic change > > and becoming of the cthonic, earth lydeities pitted against the Olympian > > deities of form-justice, beauty, etc., the changless element of the sky. > > > > In my older writings I used to refer to this same split as solar vs lunar > > mythic traditions. Moq is a lunar mythic-religious and philosophical > > system. > > It tries to incorporate the solar qualities, but does it only in a > reduced > > form. That is the lunar or (dq) way of seeing the world SEES the solar > (sq) > > reality differently than the solar (sq) sees itself and the lunar (dq). > > That > > is both views see and treat their two primary components differently. > > That's > > where the deceit its. Moq favors the dynamic reality over the static. And > > this sabotages its rational element even though it is often unseen. > > > > > > > > .On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Jon Bennett <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > dmb, an all, > > > > > > Someone teach me how to do the quoting thing in a reply. What's the > > secret. > > > > > > Let's back up and try to define our terms a bit more, and look more > > > carefully at world views, and the ideas behind them, so we can trace > > their > > > influence. The Enlightenment is actually a very sticky-wicket to > define. > > > And there were different phases in different countries. In the early > > stages > > > the Enlightenment was based on Christian theism, and later became quite > > > atheistic, of course, in France and elswhere. > > > > > > But there were at least 2 Enlightenments,a French-German and a > > > Anglo-American. Furthermore, the Enlightenment was not as influential > in > > > America's formative years. So I'd like to see you present some evidence > > dmb, > > > for your and Pirsig's claim (and Campbell would agree with you) that > > human > > > rights, democracy, were grounded in Enlightenment thought. > > > > > > One source I would reccomend to you is Alan Bloom's "The Closing of the > > > American Mind". There's a chapter in there called "Two Revolutions > > > Two States of Nature", describing the philosophical and political > > > differences between the French and American revolutions. > > > > > > The American revolution was more strongly influenced by the thought of > > > Montesquei, and Burke and the Bible, specifically, the book of > > Deutoronomy. > > > The American revolution and political institutions were strongly > > influenced > > > by both the first and second great awakenings and their grounding in > and > > > return to the ideas of the Protestant Reformation. > > > > > > Even if you claim the Deism of the Enlightenment as an influence on > these > > > rights, and freedom this is still a far cry away from what Pirsig is > > > proposing with his Moq, which you, yourself claim as anti-theistic > > > > > > Even for the Deist like Jefferson the unalienable rights of man, his > > > freedom, was endowed by a Creator, not by static or dynamic patterns of > > > quality. > > > > > > Also, Pirsig talks out of both sides of his mouth. Or more to the point > > has > > > such a lose philosophy that he can stretch and distort it to meet his > > fancy > > > or fantasy, or whim as the case may be. That's why I think it is flaky > > and > > > deceitful. > > > > > > Even from and eastern perspective there is a saying Lao Tzu walks in > the > > > woods, Confucius in society. Moq is closer to Taoism, not the moral > > > structure of Confucius. > > > > > > Pirsig, and his philosophy, like all philosophies that deny the > > > Creator-creation distinction, try to have their cake, and not eat it > too! > > > This is the fate of all philosophies that focus only on the creation. > > They > > > all have two oscillating principles that forever switch back and forth. > > > > > > I'd like to also point out and develop in another post how moq and all > > > other such systems that are based on two fundamental principles, really > > > favor only one of these principles-not both! This is where and how they > > > deceive. For these principles say static and dynamic quality are not > just > > > ways the world is believed to be, they are ways of VIEWING the world. > And > > > there is no one view that truly incorportates both views. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:00 PM, david buchanan < > [email protected] > > >wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Jon said: > > >> The issues of political freedom, the respect for human rights, > including > > >> women's rights and civil rights did not emerge from such a world view > as > > the > > >> moq, and it is indeed alien to the recognition of such rights. > > >> > > >> dmb says: > > >> > > >> Well, the ideas about human rights and political freedom emerged from > > >> Enlightenment philosophers. The MOQ supports these ideas quite > > vigorously > > >> and explicitly, although for different reasons than the original > > thinkers > > >> might have. "Freedom of speech; freedom of assembly, of travel; trial > by > > >> jury; habeas corpus; government by consent - these 'human rights' are > > all > > >> intellectual-vs-society issues. According to the Metaphysics of > Quality > > >> these 'human rights' have not just a sentimental basis, but a > rational, > > >> metaphysical basis. They are essential to the evolution of a higher > > level of > > >> life from a lower level of life. They are for real." (Lila 307) > > >> Jon said: > > >> I'm sure many on the list are familiar with the work of Joseph > Campbell. > > >> his work is very supportive of Eastern thought, and Prisig's views. > > Surely > > >> you will admit he is knowledgeable of the cultures and myths of the > > world, > > >> and is an expert in comparative mythology. > > >> > > >> > > >> dmb says: > > >> > > >> Yea, I'm a big fan. In Lila, Pirsig recommend's Joseph Campbell's > "Masks > > >> of God". He says if you really want to understand what the social > level > > is > > >> all about, that's the book to read. Notice how Campbell echoes what > > Pirsig > > >> just said about rights and freedom where he says, "they are the truly > > great > > >> "new thing" that we do indeed represent to the world and that > > constitutes > > >> our Occidental revelation of a properly human spiritual ideal, true to > > the > > >> highest potentiality of our species". > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Jon said: > > >> > > >> You have these freedoms because you were seen as created in the very > > image > > >> of God. And you were endowed by your Creator with these rights because > > your > > >> life was seen as sacred. Not a static, certainly not a dynamic > pattern, > > but > > >> a child of the living God. That is the source of freedom, personal and > > >> political. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> dmb says: > > >> > > >> > > >> Definitely disagree with you there. As you just saw, Pirsig thinks > that > > >> our rights and freedoms have a rational, evolutionary basis. The MOQ > is > > not > > >> theistic generally and in some ways it is even anti-theistic. Based on > > your > > >> apparent commitments to such beliefs, I suspect you won't find much > > comfort > > >> in the MOQ. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________________________________ > > >> The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars > > with > > >> Hotmail. > > >> > > >> > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 > > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > >> Archives: > > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > >> > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
