John 25 Apr. :
Ron originally: > > > Most Primarily, the intellectual level values the social level. Bo to Ron: > > Where have you read about the MOQ? John asks: > When a scientist studies hard to land an academic position so he can > support a family, is this not putting his intellectual values in the > service of social (and biological) patterns? Bo now: Some people's understanding of the Q-levels is odd, at least when it comes to the 3rd. and 4th. levels, like here where John's "social" is about making a living and "intellect" the ability to do so. The levels are about an dynamic flight away from "stability" which have resulted in a new higher - yet static - level. until the final meta-level where the Quality context is revealed. Pirsig said that the levels are known from SOM and the inorganic and organic can hardly be misinterpreted, but when it comes to the 3rd. it has no connection with scientific "sociology" and with the 4th. all the ties to SOM are broken. John makes it sound like intelligence and this has been the stumbling stone from day one of this discussion. > But in MoQdom, it's an immorality to put social level patterns as > "primary". First, intellect values knowledge in itself, apart from > its social consequences, and then these other things do come in. What's the point here? The inorganic level is first if that means "primary" . "Intellect values knowledge .."? Intellect IS the value of objective knowledge (aka truth) over subjective belief, but NB!! both S and O are indigenous to intellect, when the social level was "leading edge" it did not - er - know that its god-run reality was "subjective" or "superstition". > "Seek ye first the kingdom of good, and its righteousness, and all > these (social) things shall be added unto you." - bible - KJV (King > John Version) Right, in the cultures and circles still social-value-centered the God- explanation prevails. And the social is a "safer latch" than intellect and tellingly Phaedrus of ZAMM regarded the era when social value ruled as QUALITY itself. Once society looked back on the innocent biological era with envy, before the FALL (discovery of good and evil). Ron: > > > That objectivism does not (value the social level) highlights > > > the problem of Bo's SOL. > John: > Hmmm. Am I correct in assuming an equation of "objectivism" and > "intellectualism"? Because I've been doing that for some time, > largely based upon your (Ron) equating SOM with Objectivism in > writings past. If so, I don't get where you're coming from now, Ron. Nobody knows where Ron comes from or where he is headed, but that intellect is the "objective over subjective" value is not Ron's discovery. Bo to Ron: > > It's difficult to take you seriously with this MOQ "knowledge". Back > > to kindergarten you go ;-) John to Ron: > c'mon in Ron. The crayons are waiting and it's almost > story-time. Then we get to take a nap! God I love kindergarten. The > expectations are so much lower. The Q-kindergarten is starting to fill up now - Andre will be joining soon - but John is ready to move up a notch. Uncle Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
