HI Marsha, No, not criticisms, just inquiries into values. Your pondering is as good as mine. I learn from it.
Mark On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 12:00 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:41 PM, 118 wrote: > > > Hi Marsha, > > > > OK. Sometimes I get confused when I hear an equation like Quality equals > > Emptiness. > > I believe I stated that RMP used the word 'synonym' not 'equals.' . - I > didn't > say that he said they were equal. I might think that both concepts are > analogies pointing in the same direction. > > > > Perhaps it is my scientific training. Since neither are physical things > per > > say, such equality is of course metaphysical. However, having said that, > > may I ask the following: > > Is Quality a branch of Emptiness, or the other way around, or neither? > > The word 'branch' makes no sense to me, so maybe you need to think > this out for yourself. > > > > If we are looking for metaphysical structure, this may be important. I > am > > not quite sure how people are using the word Reality these days, so I''ll > > skip over the reality part. > > > > Now, if Value is not assigned to anything, then that is a new one for me. > > > > > If I seem arrogant or to straightforward with my replies, please forgive > me. > > I am a reactive human given to writing before thinking, otherwise I > forget > > what I was thinking. So my questions are simply to further educate > myself. > > I do yoga as well, mainly to make my body feel better. I have found it > > hard to get into any meditative discipline because I am too critical. I > can > > only assume that my experiences are one big unfolding meditation, that > way I > > do not have to put in much effort. > > > > Cheers, > > Mark > > I think different people have different ways of pondering, and insights > don't > seem to have an absolute procedure for arriving. > > What happens if when meditating you just note the criticisms and let them > drop away? I may use watching my breath to help me when letting go is > difficult. But you probably know this, but even so, there are stressful > times > when this is difficult. There was a time when my mind was so active during > meditation that it seemed even my eyelids conspired against me. Quiet > and peace are good even if is for a few moments. > > I'm sorry. You did not ask me about my meditation. It's just that it is > the > BEST thing I ever did for my peace of mind and I'm not a hard-core > meditator. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:06 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> Hi Mark, > >> > >> There is to deepen one's understanding of both Quality and Emptiness, > >> both rationally and through experience. I am not a Buddhist. I am an > >> MoQ'ist. Yet the MoQ has given me insights into Buddhism, and > >> Buddhism has given me insights into the MoQ. Many paths, remember? > >> I had a history with yoga and Vedic texts, especially one by Patanjali. > >> There are also areas in quantum physics that seem to add a new and > >> important dimension. My quest complete? Heavens no!!! But be it > >> the MoQ or Buddhism, I do fall back on the fact that the MoQ is Reality > >> equals Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned experience,) and these > >> discussions are patterns of value, and ultimately represent not this, > not > >> that. > >> > >> > >> Marsha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:37 PM, 118 wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Marsha, > >>> > >>> Hard to understand from this distance, I don't even know if you are > >> real... > >>> > >>> By saying that Quality and Emptiness are synonymous, what else is there > >> to > >>> say? There is plenty of literature, ritual, and lifestyle based on > >>> Emptiness. So, I don't think you can get away with an RMP statement > that > >>> easily. If we are talking Buddhism, then you have finished your quest. > >> Me, > >>> I will continue building some strange structure. > >>> > >>> IMHO > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 8:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Mark, > >>>> > >>>> I expected that it would be understood to be a response to our posted > >>>> exchange. You, if I remember correctly brought up the subject of > >>>> "many paths." (Btw, in Ant's PhD, he(Anthony) mentions that RMP > >>>> claims that Quality and Emptiness are synonyms.) I really didn't see > >>>> that there was a more appropriate response to be made. And yes, > >>>> it was meant "all in good fun." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Marsha > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:30 AM, 118 wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Marsha, > >>>>> What did you expect? We have some pretty rigorous definitionists > >>>> patrolling > >>>>> the posts. For what it's worth, I liked it. All in good fun. > >>>>> Mark > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mark, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I thought it just a sweet haiku indicating that each individual has > >>>>>> their own path. Sorry it became something else. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marsha > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Oct 6, 2010, at 1:25 AM, 118 wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yea, I agree DMB, relativity is a pretty useless concept. Now > >>>>>>> relationalism, that is a whole 'nother story. And I'm not talking > >>>> about > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>> opposite of absolutism, I'm talkin' Quality. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't have any relatives that are dwarfs, so I can't comment on > >>>>>> Marsha's > >>>>>>> giant. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mark > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 1:11 PM, david buchanan < > >> [email protected] > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marsha said: > >>>>>>>> RELATIVITY: > >>>>>>>> the tallest dwarf > >>>>>>>> meeting the smallest giant > >>>>>>>> - same size > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> dmb says: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> No, that's not what relativity means. Relativity means there is no > >>>>>> standard > >>>>>>>> by which to measure things like truth and moral values. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What you have above is merely three sets of relations. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The dwarf is tallest in relation to other dwarves. > >>>>>>>> The giant is the smallest when compared to other giants. > >>>>>>>> In relation to each other, the dwarf and the giant are the same > >> size. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As a practical matter, these relations do not depend on one's > >>>>>> perspective > >>>>>>>> or worldview. It just depends on whether or not you can get all > the > >>>>>> dwarfs > >>>>>>>> and giants to stand next to a measuring tape. That's how you know > >>>> you've > >>>>>> got > >>>>>>>> the tallest dwarf in the first place. That's how you know all > other > >>>>>> giants > >>>>>>>> are bigger. These are quantifiable facts and all three sets of > >>>> relations > >>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> true at the same time without contradiction. The term "relative" > can > >>>> be > >>>>>> used > >>>>>>>> to mean "in relation to" or "by comparison with" but that doesn't > >> have > >>>>>>>> anything to do with the objectionable philosophical stance known > as > >>>>>>>> relativism. If we say the dwarf is relatively tall, we don't mean > >> his > >>>>>> height > >>>>>>>> cannot be determined or that his height depends on one's > >> understanding > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> the term "tall". > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Words and concepts are relational in a similar way. As I like to > >> point > >>>>>> out, > >>>>>>>> the meaning of the terms "static" and "dynamic" is relational in > the > >>>>>> sense > >>>>>>>> that "static" means the opposite of dynamic and "Dynamic" means > the > >>>>>> opposite > >>>>>>>> of static. The meaning of each term is depends on not being the > >> other, > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> same way hot and cold or short and tall define each other by > >>>> opposition. > >>>>>>>> Words also derive their meaning by virtue of their relation to > >> context > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>>> which the term is being used. "Tall" can mean "highly exaggerated" > >>>> when > >>>>>>>> we're talking about tales, it can refer to the shape of a cocktail > >>>> glass > >>>>>>>> when talking to a bartender, it can mean "difficult" when we're > >>>> talking > >>>>>>>> about tall orders and tall obstacles. It can refer to a proud > >> posture > >>>> or > >>>>>>>> walking style as well as actual height. Many words are very > flexible > >>>> and > >>>>>>>> have many different meanings depending on the context but again > this > >>>> is > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> say that meaning is relational, not relative to the user. Words > mean > >>>>>> what > >>>>>>>> they mean in relation to oth > >>>>>>>> er words and in relation to the context in which it's being used. > In > >>>>>> other > >>>>>>>> words, we can't isolate the meaning of a term because it derives > >> it's > >>>>>>>> meaning from the whole language system. This is the net of jewels > >> idea > >>>>>>>> applied to words. Similarly, some philosophers talk about our > "web" > >> of > >>>>>>>> beliefs. This image get across the idea that some concepts are > more > >>>>>> central > >>>>>>>> than others, which is probably true. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Compared to the top of Mount Everest and the tallest short guy, > the > >>>>>> Empire > >>>>>>>> State Building is shorter and taller at the same time. These are > not > >>>>>>>> relative truths or opposed claims or two different views. It's > >> merely > >>>>>> two > >>>>>>>> different comparisons, two different facts. The building is never > >>>> going > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> be taller than the mountain and it'll never be shorter than any > >>>> person, > >>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> even the tallest giant. I don't mean to be some kind of yard-stick > >>>>>>>> fundamentalist. I'm just saying that relations are just as real as > >>>>>> anything > >>>>>>>> else and it's a part of what it means for something to be true and > >>>>>> right. > >>>>>>>> This could be called relationalism or relationism or wholism or > >>>>>>>> contextualism or situationalism. But relativity or relativism is > >>>>>> something > >>>>>>>> else entirely. It's the philosophical equivalent of combining > >>>> halitosis > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> leprosy. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ___ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>>> Archives: > >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>>>> > >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>>> Archives: > >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ___ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>>> Archives: > >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>>> > >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>> Archives: > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
