Not my position Steve. I'm not an anarchist. As for social programs, please be more specific. Pirsig has come out explicitly against big government programs. Nor do I think we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I assume he supported Kennedy when he reduced taxes. So did I I know he supports capitalism over socialism. So do I.
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Steven Peterson <[email protected]>wrote: > Platt, can you point to where Pirsig says that there should be no > government sponsored social programs at all and no regulation of > markets whatsoever? You do realize that you and Pirsig are at opposite > ends of the political spectrum in the US? > > > http://robertpirsig.org/Observer%20Interview.htm > > > TA: Have your politics changed over the years? > > > RP: I have been a lifelong Democrat. I was born in the state of Hubert > Humphrey who was, I believe, one of the most intelligent people ever > to get into politics. My girlfriend lived across the street from him > and I would see him from time to time. Speak to him. Like all ideas, > though, the Democrat ideas need to be Dynamic. It's like Lila, it > needs to be kept current. > > > > Apparently Pirsig doesn't see the matter as completely unrestricted > free market libertarian capitalism versus totalitarian socialism if he > is a life-long Democrat. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Platt Holden <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > It certainly is refreshing to have on this site someone who is willing > > to challenge the politically correct party line. Pirsig did the same > > in preferring capitalism to socialism, a position many here still can't > > stomach. > > > > Best, > > Platt > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "118" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 1:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [MD] Tea Bagging > > > > > >> Hi dmb, > >> > >> Right wing, left wing. Hitler was considered left-wing at the time. He > >> brought is many social changes such as shorter work days. I do not > think > >> you would consider that right wing even with today's interpretation. If > >> your intent is to polarize, you are not being factual. Wiki is a very > >> biased site, and not useful for political insight, in fact it > contradicts > >> itself from one place to another. But what do you expect from a site > that > >> provides free expression of opinion disguised as fact. > >> > >> It is possible to see where a certain web site stands in politics to > >> review > >> the donations made by such individuals to the political process. Such a > >> list can be found on: > >> > >> http://www.newsmeat.com/ > >> > >> where one can do a name search. Now Jimmy Wales is not much of an > >> activist, > >> but check out the CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt. His donations to Barbara > >> Boxer and Harry Reed are telling. Google recently gave $2,000,000 to > >> Wikipedia. Money corrupts even the best of intentions. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Mark > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 9:01 AM, david buchanan > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Horse said to Platt: > >>> ...When will you stop with the propaganda and bluster? The Nazis, > >>> whatever > >>> the nickname, were right-wing, not left-wing and all your blustering > to > >>> avoid your own right-wing bias won't hide that fact. A couple of groups > >>> you > >>> conveniently left out below are the capitalists and corporatists which, > >>> as > >>> Steve pointed out via Mussolini, are the beneficiaries of the fascist > >>> legacy. > >>> > >>> dmb says: > >>> I think that's right. As Pirsig paints it, fascism is essentially a > >>> rejection of intellectual values and a glorification of social level > >>> values. > >>> And as just about any political scientist or historian will tell you, > >>> political positions just don't get any more right wing than fascism > >>> (except > >>> maybe a Monarchist) and fascists hate leftists more than anything. > >>> > >>> There are some differences between the various kinds of fascism; > Italian, > >>> German, Spanish or whatever. But, unless you are tone-deaf to cultural > >>> attitudes, the affinities and similarities are pretty darn obvious. As > I > >>> mentioned the other day, for example, the right-wing Dutch politician > >>> (Geert > >>> Wilders) joined several of our own right-wing politicians at ground > zero > >>> in > >>> Manhattan and they all made the same anti-Islamic noises for the same > >>> right-wing reasons. And there is the right-wing radio preacher from > Royal > >>> Oak, Michigan who supported and admired Hitler and Mussolini back in > the > >>> 1930's. Pat Buchanan (no relation) ran for President as a Republican a > >>> few > >>> cycles ago. He grew up in a house where Mussolini was admired and > >>> Mussolini's portrait was proudly hung on the walls. > >>> > >>> As Pirsig pointed out, fascism in America was not so intense as in > >>> Europe. > >>> They didn't have to resist full-blown communism either. In the U.S., > >>> social > >>> level anti-intellectualism manifest itself as opposition to FDR's New > >>> Deal. > >>> And when you look at today's political situation, it's quite obvious > that > >>> the Liberals want to protect and build upon the New Deal while the > >>> Republicans have been doing everything they can to dismantle it. I > mean, > >>> just look at who's afraid of Health Insurance Reform. Who thinks such > >>> programs are scary, scary, socialism? Who is running against it as we > >>> speak? > >>> In this country, right-wingers have always opposed these things. There > is > >>> an > >>> 80 year track record that makes fascist attitudes and positions pretty > >>> easy > >>> to spot. > >>> > >>> For our "low information" friends, here's a little Wiki on the European > >>> strain: > >>> > >>> Fascism is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. > >>> Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist > perspectives, > >>> values, and systems, including the political system and the economy. > >>> Fascism > >>> was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I > >>> who > >>> combined left-wing and right-wing political views, but it gravitated to > >>> the > >>> political right in the early 1920s. Scholars generally consider fascism > >>> to > >>> be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum. > >>> Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires > >>> strong > >>> leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to > >>> commit > >>> violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. They claim > that > >>> culture is created by the collective national society and its state, > that > >>> cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject > >>> individualism. Viewing the nation as an integrated collective > community, > >>> they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a > >>> totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety. > >>> They advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascists reject and > >>> resist the autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered > >>> part > >>> of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to > be > >>> assimilated. They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an > affront > >>> and a threat to the nation. Fascist governments forbid and suppress > >>> opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. They identify > >>> violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit > and > >>> vitality. > >>> Fascism rejects the concepts of egalitarianism, materialism, and > >>> rationalism in favor of action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and > will. > >>> They oppose liberalism (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a > >>> proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based > movements. > >>> Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class > >>> movement that promotes ending economic class conflict to secure > national > >>> solidarity. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>> Archives: > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
