Ron, And I am trying to clear up the misunderstanding too.
Thanks, Marsha On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:54 AM, X Acto wrote: > Just trying to clear up some misunderstandings > > Why all the vanity? > > really nobody cares what you do. > > What we would like is a closer following with the charter rules > of philosophic discussion as a member of the discuss. > > if it's not too difficult. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 10:40:13 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Words and concepts > > > Ron, > > It might be that some of you are trying to turn me into a static > person with just one MoQ idea; I am not that. I consider myself > to be a flow of ever-changing, overlapping, interconnected > inorganic, biological, social and intellectual static patterns > within a field of Dynamic Quality. > > > Marsha > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, MarshaV wrote: > >> >> Ron, >> >> I have no idea what you are talking about. >> >> I recently had a houseguest, and of course I talked a little about the MoQ. >> When asked "what is a static pattern?", I found my definition quite useful >> as a starting point of explanation. I am not trying to subject any >> definition > >> concerning the Intellectual Level on anyone. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> On Jun 12, 2011, at 9:58 AM, X Acto wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> Your stance appears to be a reactionary response to objectivism. Like a >>> slave > >>> who >>> after having been freed still battles with the chains of bondage. >>> >>> What is being argued is that it is already agreed apon that Quality is >> Dynamic. >>> It's what unites us as a group that rejects objectivism. >>> >>> But in order to understand, to function, to act moraly, it must >>> be inteligible. To be moral is to be inteligible, to have limit, order >>> and meaning . To make prefferences as everchanging patterns >>> of value. It's what it means to be a collection of choices. >>> >>> Intellect is the most moral level, the highest form of good. >>> >>> This is a crucial conflict point for the SOM as intellect camp. >>> >>> .......Ron >>> >>> >>> ........... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 8:49:54 AM >>> Subject: Re: [MD] Words and concepts >>> >>> >>> Hi Horse, >>> >>> I think a great place to look for "ever-changing" as I present it is in the >>> MoQ >>> >>> Textbook 5.8.4 THE MOQ, DUKKHA AND AVIDAYA (IGNORANCE) >>> >>> >>> "... As Hagen (1997, p.30) notes, one of the most fundamental truths noted >>> by >> >>> the Buddha is that all aspects of our experience are in constant flux and >>> change. According to the Buddha, when a person ignores this truth they >>> subject themselves to dukkha." >>> >>> >>> ... >>> >>> "... Following Taoism, Hagen sees that the fundamental nature of reality >>> is >>> change and reality can be handled more effectively if this is realised. >>> This is >>> >>> because though irritation and discomfort will tend to arise, they will also >>> eventually tend to subside. Dukkha occurs primarily because we wish things >>> were >>> >>> different i.e. had a permanent, static nature." >>> >>> "In order to understand what is being said here, one should try and >>> imagine >>> all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is experiencing, >>> as >> >>> just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something ‘out >>> there.’ >>> >>> We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data, and so on. We >>> also > >>> don’t know that we ourselves are anything than a further series of >>> experiences. >>> >>> Taken together, there is only an ever-changing flow of perceptions >>> (vijnaptimatra). (Williams, 1989, p.83)" >>> >>> ... >>> >>> "This is supported by Herbert Guenther (1957, p.144) who adds: >>> >>> "Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation >>> and >> >>> deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and all >>> repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it follows >>> that a >>> >>> thing or material substance can only be said to be a series of events >>> interpreted as a thing, having no more substantiality than any other series >>> of >> >>> events we may arbitrarily single out."" >>> >>> "After some thought, I think Guenther’s comment is valid as I can’t think >>> of > >>> any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of ‘self’, >>> there’s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts and >>> another > >>> stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally indeterminate, >>> imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful." >>> >>> >>> >>> I have meant what is very similar to what is quoted here. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:47 AM, MarshaV wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Horse, >>>> >>>> I have only a static 'understanding' of the MoQ. I am not trying, one way >>>> or >> >>>> another, to make anybody else accept it. I am still exploring different >>>> aspects. Patterns happens to be one area that I found interesting right >>>> from >> >>>> the beginning. My mention of Arlo was just kidding. I meant no harm. I >>>> think >>>> >>>> Arlo's project is great. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:18 AM, Horse wrote: >>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> While I'm sure Arlo will be flattered, the reason that Dave spends so >>>>> much time >>>>> >>>>> on what you say is because, over the years, you have managed, >>>>> consistently, to >>>> >>>>> misunderstand Pirsigs MoQ. >>>>> You seem to have a very good grasp of Bo's MoQ, Marsha's MoQ, etc., etc. >>>>> However neither of the aforementioned (or the etc.'s) appear to have much >>>>> in >> >>>>> common with the MoQ as described by Robert M. Pirsig and this, I believe, >>>>> is >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> point that DMB is trying to convey. >>>>> He (and others) also needs to spend that amount of time because (as with >>>>> Bo > >>>>> previously) you are spending more than a reasonable amount of time >>>>> promoting a >>>> >>>>> misinterpretation of Pirsigs MoQ on a forum that is here to discuss >>>>> Pirsig's >> >>>>> MoQ. >>>>> >>>>> Still, as Dave says in another post, it has given him (and a few others) >>>>> the >> >>>>> chance to defend the MoQ against the sort of misinterpretations that >>>>> could (and >>>>> >>>>> does in at least on case) cause confusion. >>>>> >>>>> Horse >>>>> >>>>> On 11/06/2011 20:51, MarshaV wrote: >>>>>> dmb, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm so flattered that you need so much of my attention. Nine out of ten >>>>>> of >> >>>>>> your posts are directed towards what I have said. While I think you are >>>>>> cute, >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>> still cannot vote for you to become prom queen. I am going to vote for >>> Arlo. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
