Ron, It might be that some of you are trying to turn me into a static person with just one MoQ idea; I am not that. I consider myself to be a flow of ever-changing, overlapping, interconnected inorganic, biological, social and intellectual static patterns within a field of Dynamic Quality.
Marsha On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > Ron, > > I have no idea what you are talking about. > > I recently had a houseguest, and of course I talked a little about the MoQ. > When asked "what is a static pattern?", I found my definition quite useful > as a starting point of explanation. I am not trying to subject any > definition > concerning the Intellectual Level on anyone. > > > Marsha > > > > On Jun 12, 2011, at 9:58 AM, X Acto wrote: > >> Marsha, >> Your stance appears to be a reactionary response to objectivism. Like a >> slave >> who >> after having been freed still battles with the chains of bondage. >> >> What is being argued is that it is already agreed apon that Quality is >> Dynamic. >> It's what unites us as a group that rejects objectivism. >> >> But in order to understand, to function, to act moraly, it must >> be inteligible. To be moral is to be inteligible, to have limit, order >> and meaning . To make prefferences as everchanging patterns >> of value. It's what it means to be a collection of choices. >> >> Intellect is the most moral level, the highest form of good. >> >> This is a crucial conflict point for the SOM as intellect camp. >> >> .......Ron >> >> >> ........... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 8:49:54 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Words and concepts >> >> >> Hi Horse, >> >> I think a great place to look for "ever-changing" as I present it is in the >> MoQ >> Textbook 5.8.4 THE MOQ, DUKKHA AND AVIDAYA (IGNORANCE) >> >> >> "... As Hagen (1997, p.30) notes, one of the most fundamental truths noted >> by >> the Buddha is that all aspects of our experience are in constant flux and >> change. According to the Buddha, when a person ignores this truth they >> subject themselves to dukkha." >> >> >> ... >> >> "... Following Taoism, Hagen sees that the fundamental nature of reality is >> change and reality can be handled more effectively if this is realised. This >> is >> because though irritation and discomfort will tend to arise, they will also >> eventually tend to subside. Dukkha occurs primarily because we wish things >> were >> different i.e. had a permanent, static nature." >> >> "In order to understand what is being said here, one should try and imagine >> all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is experiencing, >> as >> just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something ‘out >> there.’ >> We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data, and so on. We >> also >> don’t know that we ourselves are anything than a further series of >> experiences. >> Taken together, there is only an ever-changing flow of perceptions >> (vijnaptimatra). (Williams, 1989, p.83)" >> >> ... >> >> "This is supported by Herbert Guenther (1957, p.144) who adds: >> >> "Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation >> and >> deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and all >> repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it follows >> that a >> thing or material substance can only be said to be a series of events >> interpreted as a thing, having no more substantiality than any other series >> of >> events we may arbitrarily single out."" >> >> "After some thought, I think Guenther’s comment is valid as I can’t think >> of >> any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of ‘self’, >> there’s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts and >> another >> stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally indeterminate, >> imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful." >> >> >> >> I have meant what is very similar to what is quoted here. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:47 AM, MarshaV wrote: >> >>> >>> Horse, >>> >>> I have only a static 'understanding' of the MoQ. I am not trying, one way >>> or >>> another, to make anybody else accept it. I am still exploring different >>> aspects. Patterns happens to be one area that I found interesting right >>> from >>> the beginning. My mention of Arlo was just kidding. I meant no harm. I >>> think >>> Arlo's project is great. >>> >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:18 AM, Horse wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> While I'm sure Arlo will be flattered, the reason that Dave spends so much >>>> time >>>> on what you say is because, over the years, you have managed, >>>> consistently, to >>>> misunderstand Pirsigs MoQ. >>>> You seem to have a very good grasp of Bo's MoQ, Marsha's MoQ, etc., etc. >>>> However neither of the aforementioned (or the etc.'s) appear to have much >>>> in >>>> common with the MoQ as described by Robert M. Pirsig and this, I believe, >>>> is the >>>> point that DMB is trying to convey. >>>> He (and others) also needs to spend that amount of time because (as with >>>> Bo >>>> previously) you are spending more than a reasonable amount of time >>>> promoting a >>>> misinterpretation of Pirsigs MoQ on a forum that is here to discuss >>>> Pirsig's >>>> MoQ. >>>> >>>> Still, as Dave says in another post, it has given him (and a few others) >>>> the >>>> chance to defend the MoQ against the sort of misinterpretations that could >>>> (and >>>> does in at least on case) cause confusion. >>>> >>>> Horse >>>> >>>> On 11/06/2011 20:51, MarshaV wrote: >>>>> dmb, >>>>> >>>>> I'm so flattered that you need so much of my attention. Nine out of ten >>>>> of >>>>> your posts are directed towards what I have said. While I think you are >>>>> cute, I >>>>> still cannot vote for you to become prom queen. I am going to vote for >>>>> Arlo. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> -- >>> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
