Hi Steve,
Dmb is full of baloney. I've for years stated my recognition of a conventional self, but denied the existence of an inherently existing, independent self. And he knows that. He's changed the vocabulary and the issues of the discussion without explanation, and thinks nobody has noticed. Marsha On Jul 21, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Steven Peterson wrote: > Hi dmb, > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:00 PM, david buchanan <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> Marsha said to dmb: >> >> Now you seem to understand why I've stated that I neither accept free-will, >> nor deny free-will. It's irrelevant within the MoQ. >> >> dmb says: >> Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm saying that the MOQ >> reformulates the issue so that freedom and constraint are just about the >> MOST relevant thing in the universe. I'm correcting the distortion which >> render it irrelevant and meaningless, such as your's and Steve's. I'm saying >> freedom and constraint go all the way down and I'm saying that AGAINST your >> vacuous nihilism. >> >> Like Steve, you don't seem to understand that asserting a dependent self - >> as opposed to an independent self - is not at all the same as saying there >> is no self at all. > > Steve: > But that's not at all what I have been saying. This debate has been > going on since April, and I've been consistent with my position since > then. Here is what I said on my original entry into the debate back in > April: > > "The MOQ literally does not posit the existence of the > reified concept of a chooser, a Cartesian self, a watcher that stands > behind the senses and all valuation, the soul. The MOQ does not posit > an extra-added ingredient above and beyond the patterns of value and > the possibility for patterns to change that are collectively referred > to as "I" about which it could possibly make any sense to ask, "do I > have free will?" This question gets dissolved in the MOQ to the extent > that it needs to be unasked. This question presupposes that there is > such a thing as "I" that has important ontological status that > transcends those patterns of value to which it refers. The MOQ makes > no such fundamental postulate. Free will is formulated as a question > that is asked in the SO context. Instead, in MOQ terns we can > reformulate the question where "I" could refer to the static patterns > (small self in Zen terms) or the "I" could refer to the capacity for > change, emptiness, the nothingness that is left when we subtract all > the static patterns that is also the generator and sustainer and > destroyer of those patterns (big Self in Zen terms). That's what > Pirsig did with the question. We can identify with our current > patterns of preferences and the extent to which we do so we are not > free. We are a slave to our preferences. Rather we ARE our > preferences. Or we can identify with the capacity to generate, > sustain, or destroy existing patterns in favor of (we hope) new and > better ones. To the extent we do we are free. Cultivating practices > such as meditation that help us be open to change, which is the death > and rebirth of small self as old patterns evolve into new patterns, is > striving to be more free from the bondage of current value patterns > that may be improved. If we succeed in improving them, we still ought > not identify with the new and improved small self but rather with > improvement itself. That is, if we want to be more free." > > dmb: > In Pirsig's formulation, the "one" who is free to some extent and the > "one" controlled to some extent is that dependent self. That is the > self for whom freedom and control is anything but irrelevant. That's > what what the whole evolutionary battle is all about. > > Steve: > That is utter nonsense. How could a "dependent self" be free > (independent)? That is a simple logical contradiction. Please refer to > my post from April to understand how "self" comes into the this issue. > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
