On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:19 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > >> Marsha, dmb, >> >> Common sense at both ends of that mail, so let's focus on that. >> (The trading of accusatory rhetoric and dictionary definitions in >> between I'll try to ignore.) >> >> At the beginning - We are using the terms free-will and determinism. >> >> And at the end - the Pirsig quote (again) >> "To the extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of >> quality it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows >> Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is free." >> >> Well it's quite clear so far as it goes - but Pirsig himself is not >> above qualifying himself with the odd weasel word is he ? >> "To the extent that ..." he says about both halves of the story. >> >> He is NOT saying we ARE controlled "deterministically" by static >> patterns - if anything he is warning us to beware that we might be, if >> we don't look out for them. >> He is NOT saying we simply follow DQ - on some path determined by DQ - >> he is still saying we have the freedom to choose what opportunities DQ >> offers. >> >> What Pirsig says is perfectly consistent with talking about free-will >> and determinism in common sense established ways. >> Again (almost) all I see in this thread is rhetorical disagreement for >> the sake of wanting to have an argument. >> Ian >> > > Ian, > > Stay with common sense, it that's what suits you. I think the more > important issue, as Steve has suggested, is how to loosen the grip > of static quality to move in a more dynamic direction. > > > Marsha
Ian, By common sense, I mean common, conventional, static.... Stay with this point-of-view if you think it has worked, is working. Marsha > >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:18 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>>> Marsha asked: >>>> Have you dropped the words 'free-will' and 'determinism'? >>>> >>>> dmb answered: >>>> No, I haven't dropped the terms. >>> >>> Marsha: >>> Okay. >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
