can't - that was
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Ian Glendinning <[email protected]> wrote: > That's how I read you Marsha ... agreed - the established conventions > can only give us more of the established problems. > > What was it Einstein said ... you can solve current problem with > current thinking .... or words to that effect. > Ian > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:25 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:19 AM, MarshaV wrote: >> >>> >>> On Aug 3, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha, dmb, >>>> >>>> Common sense at both ends of that mail, so let's focus on that. >>>> (The trading of accusatory rhetoric and dictionary definitions in >>>> between I'll try to ignore.) >>>> >>>> At the beginning - We are using the terms free-will and determinism. >>>> >>>> And at the end - the Pirsig quote (again) >>>> "To the extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of >>>> quality it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows >>>> Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is free." >>>> >>>> Well it's quite clear so far as it goes - but Pirsig himself is not >>>> above qualifying himself with the odd weasel word is he ? >>>> "To the extent that ..." he says about both halves of the story. >>>> >>>> He is NOT saying we ARE controlled "deterministically" by static >>>> patterns - if anything he is warning us to beware that we might be, if >>>> we don't look out for them. >>>> He is NOT saying we simply follow DQ - on some path determined by DQ - >>>> he is still saying we have the freedom to choose what opportunities DQ >>>> offers. >>>> >>>> What Pirsig says is perfectly consistent with talking about free-will >>>> and determinism in common sense established ways. >>>> Again (almost) all I see in this thread is rhetorical disagreement for >>>> the sake of wanting to have an argument. >>>> Ian >>>> >>> >>> Ian, >>> >>> Stay with common sense, it that's what suits you. I think the more >>> important issue, as Steve has suggested, is how to loosen the grip >>> of static quality to move in a more dynamic direction. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >> >> Ian, >> >> By common sense, I mean common, conventional, static.... Stay with >> this point-of-view if you think it has worked, is working. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:18 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Marsha asked: >>>>>> Have you dropped the words 'free-will' and 'determinism'? >>>>>> >>>>>> dmb answered: >>>>>> No, I haven't dropped the terms. >>>>> >>>>> Marsha: >>>>> Okay. >>>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
