That's how I read you Marsha ... agreed - the established conventions can only give us more of the established problems.
What was it Einstein said ... you can solve current problem with current thinking .... or words to that effect. Ian On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:25 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:19 AM, MarshaV wrote: > >> >> On Aug 3, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >> >>> Marsha, dmb, >>> >>> Common sense at both ends of that mail, so let's focus on that. >>> (The trading of accusatory rhetoric and dictionary definitions in >>> between I'll try to ignore.) >>> >>> At the beginning - We are using the terms free-will and determinism. >>> >>> And at the end - the Pirsig quote (again) >>> "To the extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of >>> quality it is without choice. But to the extent that one follows >>> Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is free." >>> >>> Well it's quite clear so far as it goes - but Pirsig himself is not >>> above qualifying himself with the odd weasel word is he ? >>> "To the extent that ..." he says about both halves of the story. >>> >>> He is NOT saying we ARE controlled "deterministically" by static >>> patterns - if anything he is warning us to beware that we might be, if >>> we don't look out for them. >>> He is NOT saying we simply follow DQ - on some path determined by DQ - >>> he is still saying we have the freedom to choose what opportunities DQ >>> offers. >>> >>> What Pirsig says is perfectly consistent with talking about free-will >>> and determinism in common sense established ways. >>> Again (almost) all I see in this thread is rhetorical disagreement for >>> the sake of wanting to have an argument. >>> Ian >>> >> >> Ian, >> >> Stay with common sense, it that's what suits you. I think the more >> important issue, as Steve has suggested, is how to loosen the grip >> of static quality to move in a more dynamic direction. >> >> >> Marsha > > Ian, > > By common sense, I mean common, conventional, static.... Stay with > this point-of-view if you think it has worked, is working. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > >> >>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:18 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>>> Marsha asked: >>>>> Have you dropped the words 'free-will' and 'determinism'? >>>>> >>>>> dmb answered: >>>>> No, I haven't dropped the terms. >>>> >>>> Marsha: >>>> Okay. >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
