Marsha, Are the static patterns and whatever else you are throwing into the salad True? Or are they just relative to the passage, in turn? If it is the second then you are describing the interaction of DQ and sq in my opinion. Well done grasshopper!
Mark On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:48 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > I point to no passage as True, only true relative to an individual's static > pattern history and the dynamics of the particular event. > > > Marsha > > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:08 AM, 118 wrote: > >> Hi Marsha, >> The experience that Pisig's went through, and the meaning it gave his life >> as presented in ZMM is the foundation for MoQ. One must first understand >> that or one can get lost in the details of MoQ, in my opinion. If I get >> lost, I return to ZMM to remember what it is all about. The way Pisig >> subsequently presents MoQ can be done in a thousand ways. I think that to >> point to a passage as True misses the whole point. >> >> Mark >> >> On Oct 23, 2011, at 1:19 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Dmb, >>> >>> I might remind you that the quote you provided from Chapter 29 of ZAMM was >>> written before long before LILA and the MoQ. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 23, 2011, at 3:31 PM, david buchanan wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Marhsa said: We have been through this before in the 'Humanism' thread >>>> November 2010. I do not mean an "anything goes" absolute, ethical >>>> relativism. Conventional (static) truth is relative; relative to an >>>> individual's static pattern history and the dynamics of the particular >>>> event. Truths may be judged within the MoQ based on their placement >>>> within the evolutionary, four-level, hierarchical structure. >>>> >>>> >>>> dmb says: >>>> Yea, I know. You still don't see any reason to give up relativism. No >>>> worries. I was talking to Mark. Maybe he'll see the reason. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 23, 2011, at 2:31 PM, david buchanan wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha said to Mark: >>>>>> >>>>>> I am quite comfortable with conventional (static) truth being relative. >>>>>> It is a word comfortably used within Buddhism and I see no reason to >>>>>> reject. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Pirsig gives us lots of reasons to believe that truth is more than >>>>>> merely relative, Quality is track that guides the formation of both >>>>>> facts and moral truths: >>>>>> >>>>>> What guarantees the objectivity of the world in which we live is that >>>>>> this world is common to us with other thinking beings. Through the >>>>>> communications that we have with other men we receive from them >>>>>> ready-made harmonious reasonings. ..And as these reasonings appear to >>>>>> fit the world of our sensations, we think we may infer that these >>>>>> reasonable beings have seen the same thing as we; thus it is that we >>>>>> know we haven't been dreaming. It is this harmony, this quality if you >>>>>> will, that is the sole basis for the only reality we can ever know. >>>>>> >>>>>> Poincaré's contemporaries .. presumed that "preselected facts" meant >>>>>> that truth is "whatever you like" and called his ideas conventionalism. >>>>>> ..What he neglected to say was that the selection of facts before you >>>>>> "observe" them is "whatever you like" only in a dualistic, >>>>>> subject-object metaphysical system! When Quality enters the picture as a >>>>>> third metaphysical entity, the preselection of facts is no longer >>>>>> arbitrary. The preselection of facts is not based on subjective, >>>>>> capricious "whatever you like" but on Quality, which is reality itself. >>>>>> ..To leave the impression in the scientific world that the source of all >>>>>> scientific reality is merely a subjective, capricious harmony is to >>>>>> solve problems of epistemology while leaving an unfinished edge at the >>>>>> border of metaphysics that makes the epistemology unacceptable. ..But we >>>>>> know from Phædrus' metaphysics that the harmony Poincaré talked about is >>>>>> not subjective. It is the source of subjects and objects and exists in >>>>>> an anterior relationship to them. It is not capricious, it is the force >>>>>> that opposes capriciousness; the ordering principle of all scientific >>>>>> and mathematical thought which destroys capriciousness, and without >>>>>> which no scientific thought can proceed. >>>>>> >>>>>> From chapter 29 of ZAMM: >>>>>> Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealists would >>>>>> say. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective >>>>>> idealists and materialists would say. The Quality which creates the >>>>>> world emerges as a relationship between man and his experience. He is a >>>>>> participant in the creation of all things. The measure of all things... >>>>>> >>>>>> How are you going to teach virtue if you teach the relativity of all >>>>>> ethical ideas? Virtue, if it implies anything at all, implies an ethical >>>>>> absolute. A person whose idea of what is proper varies from day to day >>>>>> can be admired for his broadmindedness, but not for his virtue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lightning hits!Quality! Virtue! Dharma! That is what the Sophists were >>>>>> teaching! Not ethical relativism. Not pristine "virtue." But areté. >>>>>> Excellence. Dharma! Before the Church of Reason. Before substance. >>>>>> Before form. Before mind and matter. Before dialectic itself. Quality >>>>>> had been absolute. Those first teachers of the Western world were >>>>>> teaching Quality, and the medium they had chosen was that of rhetoric. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ...we advanced organisms respond to our environment with an invention of >>>>>> many marvelous analogues. We invent earth and heavens, trees, stones and >>>>>> oceans, gods, music, arts, language, philosophy, engineering, >>>>>> civilization and science. We call these analogues reality. And they are >>>>>> reality. We mesmerize our children in the name of truth into knowing >>>>>> that they are reality. We throw anyone who does not accept these >>>>>> analogues into an insane asylum. But that which causes us to invent the >>>>>> analogues is Quality. Quality is the continuing stimulus which our >>>>>> environment puts upon us to create the world in which we live. All of >>>>>> it. Every last bit of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Men invent responses to Quality, and among these responses is an >>>>>> understanding of what they themselves are. You know something and then >>>>>> the Quality stimulus hits and then you try to define the Quality >>>>>> stimulus, but to define it all you've got to work with is what you know. >>>>>> So your definition is made up of what you know. It's an analogue to what >>>>>> you already know. It has to be. It can't be anything else. And the >>>>>> mythos grows this way. By analogies to what is known before. The mythos >>>>>> is a building of analogues upon analogues upon analogues. These fill the >>>>>> collective consciousness of all communicating mankind. Every last bit of >>>>>> it. The Quality is the track that directs the train. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ___ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
