Hello everyone On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 6:44 PM, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Ron: >> Eliminating all hypotheisis because it can not be empirically verified >> (observed) is the >> position known as positivism. > > Dan: > I don't think that's right. All hypotheses are imaginary: > > hy·poth·e·sis/hīˈpäTHəsis/ > Noun: > > 1. A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of > limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation. > 2. A proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any > assumption of its truth. > > Ron replies: > That is what is being stated. Positivism states > that Hypothisis have no value because they are not a direct observation, it > is imaginary.
Dan: Perhaps we're using different definitions of positivism... positivism (ˈpɒzɪtɪˌvɪzəm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide] — n 1. See also logical positivism a strong form of empiricism, esp as established in the philosophical system of Auguste Comte, that rejects metaphysics and theology as seeking knowledge beyond the scope of experience, and holds that experimental investigation and observation are the only sources of substantial knowledge Dan comments: It would appear (to me) that hypothesis definition #1 falls under experimental investigation and so a positivist would allow it has value. > > Dan: > > I'm not suggesting the MOQ would say that we throw out all hypotheses > or that it is aligned with positivism. > > Ron: >> Steven Weinburg, a noted Quantum Physicist said this >> about positivism: >> "Wave functions are "real" for the same reasons quarks and symmetries are - >> because >> it is useful to include them in our theories". > > Dan: > > But he is not saying to throw out all hypotheses... in fact, he is > saying they are useful. > > Ron replies: > Correct, they are useful. Dan: Then I misread your introduction to the quote above... it read as if Steve Weinburg was giving a definition of positivism. He is refuting it. Ron: > Hypothisis have value and as Pirsig would say, that which has value > is "real". New York, dog dishes and trees that are pre-supposed, like quarks > and symmetries > are "real" in the same way because they have value. Dan: For a minute I thought we were making progress but no... if I presuppose flying pigs do they have value? > >>Ron: >> Pirsig says something similar: >> "In order to ask this question you have to presuppose the existence >> of the falling tree and then ask whether this presupposed tree would >> vanish if nobody were there. Of course, it wouldn’t vanish! It has >> already been presupposed." >> >> In this light asking how to empirically verify presupposed trees is the >> problem >> it is a logical fallacy to even ask the question. > > Dan: > > Well, yes... that's been my position all along. However, the question > has evolved over the course of the discussion to include Don's dog > dish and New York City. Is New York City presupposed? And if so, can > it be empirically verified without experiencing it? How about Don's > dog dish? If Chris goes into the kitchen, sees the dog dish, and calls > out to Don that it is still there, is that a method of empirical > verification? > > Ron replies: > Again all variations of the same theme, Pirsig would say that the > presuppositions of NewYork > are "real" because it has value and value is the empirical groundstuff of > experience. Dan: By this reasoning flying pigs have value and are the empirical groundstuff of experience. I don't think that's right. Instead, I would say (and have) that presuppositions supporting the existence of New York City are grounded in overwhelming circumstantial evidence. Ron: Matt was saying > that the kind of question you asked above about the kinds of empirical > methods of verification > are the kinds of questions a Positivist point of view would wrestle with not > subscribers of a value > centered reality. Dan: But I didn't ask them... Matt did. I thought I made that clear... > Ron: > Thats why it is being said that the problem lies in the kinds of questions > that are being asked. Dan: What better questions would you suggest? Thank you, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
