Hello David,
On Aug 28, 2012, at 3:38 AM, David Harding <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Marsha, > > Here's my response to a few key points you made.. > >> And what RMP DOESN'T state is that there are two types of mystics (good and >> bad). > > No, but the MOQ is fundamentally mystic and one of it's main opponents are > mystics. The way this issue is solved is by breaking up mysticism in two. > One type it supports, the other it does not. The type it supports is that > which recognises the value of clear, fixed, metaphysical distinctions. This explanation may work for you, but it does nothing for me. >>> "The only person who doesn't pollute the mystic reality of the world with >>> fixed metaphysical meanings is a person who hasn't yet been born — and to >>> whose birth no thought has been given. The rest of us have to settle for >>> being something less pure. Getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and >>> writing metaphysics is a part of life." >> >> I agree with RMP's comment. > > That's fascinating. You agree with this comment? Notice how he said "fixed > metaphysical meanings"? Not "supposed but not necessarily real or true" or > "hypothetical" but "fixed metaphysical meanings"? Please note that RMP uses the plural form "meanings". He also wrote "Unlike subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist on a single exclusive truth." I prefer to use the word 'patterns', and prefer to consider patterns as 'hypothetical'. I think to consider patterns hypothetical is to broaden one's intellectual understanding. It also is less likely to lead to intellectual arrogance. It helps one become "unfixed", or better yet "unstuck". I do understand, though, some people, even philosophers, may be uncomfortable if they lose sight of certainty. >> "In the MOQ, nothing exists prior to the observation. The observation >> creates the intellectual patterns called “observed” and “observer.” Think >> about it. How could a subject and object exist in a world where there are >> no observations?" (LILA's Child) >> >> Value comes first; observation would represent what is experienced in the >> interaction between value and consciousness. > > Right. Values then experience. > >> And I consider observation to be of two types: seeing and knowing. > > Why break it up? Maybe sight and insight, or perception and conception. I don't really have this worked out yet. >>>> Philosophy/philosophers have not come to any consensus about truth. And >>>> you do not have the knowledge that can state what "everybody knows". Do >>>> you mean everyone in the past, and everyone in the present and everyone in >>>> the future? How could you know that? - I think you have some confusion >>>> about the intellectual static pattern named 'truth'; it's a pattern. >>> >>> I should have said everyone (intellectual) knows what truth is. A truth is >>> a high quality intellectual idea which is a pattern yes. One of many >>> patterns. >> >> Yes, the intellectual pattern labeled 'truth' is one of many intellectual >> patterns. > > Agreed. And truth is a label for the best intellectual patterns. No, the intellectual pattern labeled 'truth' is ONE of many intellectual patterns. You might want to define 'truth' as "a label for the best intellectual patterns."? So now your definition has gone from "an idea which represents experience beautifully" to "a label for the best intellectual patterns". Any more? It's wack-a-mole! No wonder you avoid offering a definition when I ask. For your particular reasoning, in this case, should we totally ignore the dictionary? >>>> I see this as a function of a relationship with consciousness. >>> >>> The MOQ doesn't start with consciousness. It starts with experience. >> >> The MoQ's fundamental principle is that the World is nothing but Value. > > Yes. Value which is experienced. Pure empiricism. What is you definition or explanation of "pure experience"? How "pure" is it? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
