Hi Horse, and Khoo, Inserted below:
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote: > Khoo, before you go (and it's my sincere wish that you don't) could you > explain to me how one comes to a mystic understanding through intellect? > Neither myself, DMB, Ron, Arlo etc. etc. wish to denigrate DQ or subsume > it within Intellect. > [IG] Clearly no-one wishes to denigrate DQ, but wishing and acting are different things. > The problem here is that some do not appear to understand the nature of a > philosophical discussion group. I have, I believe, experienced DQ through > both music and Iaido and I certainly have no wish to dismiss DQ as > irrelevant or otherwise. It was also DMB who managed to get it through my > thick skull that DQ is central to Quality so I know damn well that he > understands the DQ/Quality relationship. > However, using something called a 'DQ perspective' or claiming to be a > mystic in order to trash intellect is also immoral within an intellectual > environment. > [IG] This is where I ring the "straw man" bell. You are implying in your impersonal statement, that certain persons ARE trashing intellect. Guessing who you're talking about, I have to say, I haven't seen it. > > So if you haven't already unsubscribed please explain to me where I am > being unreasonable. > [IG] Ah, therein lies the rub. Unreasonable depends on your definition of reason. Pirsig and MoQ attempts to widen GOF-Intellect beyond the simple, classical concepts. > Are you so sure that like many others you aren't confusing the MoQ (static > quality) with DQ just as some in the past have confused the MoQ with > reality!!! > Yes, DQ is central to Quality but the MoQ is not a synonym for Quality - > or do you believe otherwise? > [IG] I can't imagine anyone less confused about that than Khoo. I think the real problem is those confusing MoQ-Informed Intellect with GOF-SOMist Intellect. Allowing their love of intellect to kill Quality - as ever the truer path is the one of balance. [IG] (BTW Those paragraphs about Pirsig describing a rationality based on the indefinable as "none-sense" have been addressed many times previously - this is him stating the problem, not the solution.) > > Cheers > > Horse > > > > On 07/06/2013 12:31, [email protected] wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Looks like this eureka moment is too much for some to handle. >> >> >From the point of view of Eastern Philosophy, there is no denial of >> intellect, but merely placing it in its proper place. >> >> But from the point of view of Western intellect, there seems to be a >> great fear of mysticism derived from self introspection. This is its great >> limitation. >> >> RMP has endeavoured to provide a place for it in the expansion of >> intellect by including Quality or Dynamic Quality in the centre of the MOQ. >> >> However, recent discussion has been anti-mysticism and by extension >> anti-Quality, anti DQ. >> >> One needs to rise above intellect to experience DQ. >> I have been waiting years for signs of this realisation by the discussion >> group. >> >> Alas. the moment there is a glimmer of this happening, the moderator >> wishes to stamp it out. >> >> I post occassionally from the Eastern perspective in what is practically >> a Western Forum. >> >> But there is no place for my views here, moderate as they are, so I will >> leave. >> >> Thank you all for a decade and more of your exchanges. >> >> All the best. >> >> Goodbye. >> Khoo Hock Aun >> >> Unsubscribe. >> Sent by DiGi from my BlackBerry® Smartphone >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Horse <[email protected]> >> Sender: moq_discuss-bounces@lists.**moqtalk.orgDate: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 >> 11:57:39 >> To: <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> Subject: [MD] DQ vs. Intellect? >> >> Greetings MD-ers >> >> ##############################**##################### >> *MOQ_DISCUSS - Charter and Rules* >> >> The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list exists to provide a general and >> free-ranging forum for the discussion of Robert M. Pirsig's *Metaphysics >> of Quality*. >> >> ##############################**##################### >> >> I think much of the problem here is that MD is (and always has been) set >> up to discuss Pirsig's MoQ and not set up as Mystics 'R' Us!! >> The foundation of the MoQ is an intellect centred text which requires an >> intellectual approach - to simply state that intellectual values are >> unwelcome, evil or redundant in an intellectual environment is ridiculous! >> >> The problem, as I see it, is that approaching an intellectually centred >> discussion group from a 'mystic perspective' produces a great number of >> problems - not least of which is the apparent mystical desire to >> circumvent rationality and ignore trivialities such as definitions! What >> this produces is an 'anything goes' environment in which intellect and >> rationality are flushed down the toilet. >> >> MD is a philosophy discussion group and as such needs to apply the rules >> of philosophy to any discussion. This requires a rational and >> intellectual approach. It also requires the use of rational definitions >> - not self-contradictory statements which support a non-intellectual >> point of view. >> >> What I've been seeing here recently is an attempt to undermine the >> intellectual aspect of the MoQ by the inappropriate use of a 'mystical >> perspective' - and, according to the MoQ and it's author, this is just >> plain bullshit. A 'mystical perspective' (i.e. a DQ centred approach >> within an intellect centred environment) is, literally, non sense! How >> the hell do you have a discussion about that which cannot be defined? >> There is no definition of DQ - it's a logical and rational impossibility >> - and without a definition there can be no discussion! >> >> DMB, Ron, Arlo, et alia, are doing exactly the right thing by calling >> out certain people as anti-intellectual, when they are using a >> non-existent (by definition) 'perspective' to undermine the principles >> of the environment within which they are situated. This is not a >> strawman argument, it is to prevent a self-serving attempt to undermine >> and destroy a valid approach to a philosophical system of thought. >> You do not do DQ justice by destroying Intellectual patterns any more >> than you do justice to Intellectual patterns by destroying Social >> patterns where there is no threat to intellect. DQ is not being >> threatened, relegated or ignored by Intellect on MD so to use this as an >> excuse to do so is, at best, specious. >> >> >> So, for those 'mystics' who wish to remain within the MD I will make >> this, initially, polite request. >> Please refrain from specious arguments using a non-existent viewpoint to >> support an intent to destroy a forum which exists to discuss a >> philosophical proposition which requires an intellectual and rational >> approach. If you are unable to do so then please leave and find >> somewhere that will fit your requirements better. >> >> Cheers >> >> Horse >> >> > -- > > "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production > deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." > — Frank Zappa > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/**listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-**moqtalk.org<http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org> > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/**pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.**org/<http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/> > http://moq.org/md/archives.**html <http://moq.org/md/archives.html> > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
