Dan said:
>From what I understand, James takes his Pragmatism from Charles Peirce's
>writings. It isn't until James popularizes it that Peirce is acknowledged at
>all. I think I read somewhere that the seminal paper on Pragmatism by Peirce
>laid around collecting dust for twenty years before James used it as a basis
>for his theories.
Doing a bit of reading I see that Charles Peirce was more interested in using
pragmatism as a tool in scientific inquiry--a one-truth notion--whereas William
James appears to use it more along the lines of religious and psychological
inquiry, or multiple truths. This seems interesting to me in that Robert Pirsig
uses his MOQ to marry idealism and materialism.
dmb says:
They were friends but Pierce was not happy with James's version of pragmatism,
so much so that he re-named his own view "pragmaticism". He figured the name
was so ugly that nobody would be tempted to steal it. He was decidedly more
scientific in his leanings than James. Where James was happy to let multiple
truths exist at the same time, Pierce thought the whole community of inquirers
were heading toward a single truth. I mean, it seems you've put your finger on
the essential difference between them.
Dan:
What is the 'experience' that pragmatic truth agrees with?
dmb says:
Whatever is relevant to the truth being tested. To say that true ideas are ones
that agree with experience is a very broad empirical principle with zillions of
particular applications. This principle works in the sciences but it's even
broader than that. Does the idea actually work when you act on it, when you put
it to work in real life? I mean, the meaning of "experience" is not limited to
the observation of scientific experience or even the five senses. This is
important insofar as Pirsig and James do not want to exclude ANY kind of
experience. You know, they want to undo that whole business about dismissing
so-called "subjective" experience. Theirs is an expanded empiricism but the
basic idea is the same as traditional empiricism; does the theory actually work
in practice? (Pragmatism comes from the Latin word for "practice".) But for
these guys, science and philosophy are not the only legitimate "practices".
This principle is even supposed to work in your personal life,
in the arts, at the park, or whatever. You axed an important question, I
think.
> "What the Metaphysics of Quality adds to James' *pragmatism *and his *radical
> empiricism *is the idea that the primal reality from which subjects and
> objects spring is *value. *By doing so it seems to unite pragmatism and
> radical empiricism into a single fabric. Value, the pragmatic test of
> truth, is also the primary empirical experience. The Metaphysics of Quality
> says pure experience is value. Experience which is not valued is not
> experienced. The two are the same. This is where value fits. Value is not
> at the tail-end of a series of superficial scientific deductions that puts
> it somewhere in a mysterious undetermined location in the cortex of the
> brain. Value is at the very front of the empirical procession." [Lila]
Dan comments:
So if pragmatism and radical empiricism are united by value, and pure
experience is value, as Robert Pirsig surmises, what is pragmatic truth? Does
James answer that other than to say it agrees with experience? And does he
equate experience with value like Robert Pirsig?
dmb says:
James doesn't quite get there. Pirsig says the MOQ "adds" the idea of values to
James's two doctrines. I take this to mean that James's "pure experience" -
although roughly equal to Pirsig's Dynamic Quality - didn't really have that
"moral" dimension. They both put it at the front of the empirical procession,
both say it's the primary empirical reality, that it is dynamic, undefinable,
pre-intellectual, among other similarities, but I think Pirsig is quite right
to assert "value" as his own addition. Thanks for asking.
And thanks for the kind words,
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