[Ron] What drives evolution is "not this, not that". [Arlo] Marsha's "neti neti" is another way of saying "undefined". No one disputes this. No one has said Dynamic Quality is definable. In this sense, even "Dynamic Quality" (as a name) is problematic. Consider, what value the modifier "Dynamic" could add to a undefined term. "Quality" also certainly imparts some meaning. It is a metaphysics that speculates about this undefined, and part of that speculation is a meaningful semiotic (redundant, I know), which includes the totality of the words used 'around' that undefined (labels, definitions, pointers, stories, music, pictures, icons, references, metaphors, typographies, etc.).
So once we've left the meditative trance on the mountaintop, once we're immersed in a metaphysical dialogue, meaning is important. Once we call that undefined 'neti neti' by the term "Quality" or "Dynamic Quality" or "Value" or "Experience", we are pointing to something salient and meaningful. Seeing this primary undefined as Quality/value is the root of all Pirsig's subsequent writings. It 'points to' meaning, even if 'definition' is impossible. As with you, Ron, I'm not sure what sense it makes to suggest that 'not this, not that' is the evolutionary force. All this does is say "we can't define the evolutionary force". Hell, even the attribute "evolutionary" points to meaning, as does "force". To be genuine, Marsha would have to object to Pirsig referring to the undefined as "Quality" as even this violates the 'neti, neti' by assigning specific meaning to an undefinable. But, to your point, when Pirsig saw this 'undefined' as 'Quality', right there is the point where meaning begins. By referring to the undefined as "Quality" we are making a metaphysical assumption, and this is that that undefined is 'value', it is the 'betterness' we sense but can never capture. It is from this one semiotic point that all the other things we talk about here make sense. If the undefined was say "Undefined", we'd be left with a Metaphysics of Undefined, and defined patterns of undefinability. Since it'd make no sense to say "Dynamic Undefined", that'd be dropped, and we'd have only waves of defined undefinedness emanating from the Undefined. Instead, we have "value" (betterness, Quality) as the "creative force" (LILA), the "ongoing free force of life" (LILA), "the great central generating force" (ZMM), all of which are analogies, of course, but analogies point to meaning, and it is this meaning which is the foundation of the metaphysics we are here to discuss (for some, ostensibly). Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
