Greetings Horse,
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:14 AM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote: > Hiya John > > I'm not sure why you keep getting hung up on this idea that the 'Giant' > and 'SOM' are inextricably linked - I've got an idea as to why but I think > you're coming at it from the wrong direction and failing to see the wood > for the trees! > J: The MoQ postulates levels of evolution. Imagining something different than what has actually evolved is like dmb says, outside of experience and mere speculation. The Giant evolved according to social and intellectual patterns so that's the wood. What trees do you think are blocking my view? H: > > SOM is a distinct set of patterns, intellectual patterns, as is MoQ, > subjectivism, objectivism, pragmatism and all the other -isms's that you > care to mention. These are the pre-dominant ways of describing reality in > our neck of the woods (i.e. the 'western' world). Add into the mix the > other occidental, oriental, aboriginal etc. ways of describing reality and > you end up with a huge selection of instances from which you can select > your world view. > 'The Giant' is not the social level. It is an instance abstracted from > social patterns of value and is different within different contexts. The > New York 'Giant' is not the same 'Giant' as the Bangalore 'Giant' or the > London 'Giant' or the USA 'Giant' or the British 'Giant' or the European > 'Giant' or the Chinese 'Giant' etc.. From what you're saying in your posts, > to say that SOM is the essence of the 'Giant' is to say that Intellectual > patterns of value precede Social patterns of value which, as far as I'm > aware, is the reverse of what Pirsig is saying. > > J: Well I do think that intellectual patterns creatively influence social patterns as well as grow out of social patterns. For one thing, people die and new ones are born into societies and a lot of their behavioral patterns emerge from long lasting intellectual patterns carried in books and education. It is thusly that the Giant perpetuates itself over the generations and grows - via intellectual SOM patterns. H: > That intellectual patterns propagate by way of the Social level is, I > think, a given in MoQ terms. But that propagation is also dependent upon > Biological and Inorganic patterns of value also. Think in terms of > communications and protocol stacks (tcp/ip, OSI, I2C etc.) and you'll have > a good idea of how Intellectual patterns propagate. This shouldn't cause > you to confuse the means of propagation with the values of the levels and > what they represent - which I think you seem to be doing at the moment. > > Anyway, that's how I look at it and I could be mistaken - but it makes > sense to me! :) > I see an interplay between social and intellectual patterns that is not so one-way and simple. Evolving intellectual insights have a huge influence upon future social patterns or we'd all be stuck in a Middle Ages Theocracy. Cheers backatcha Mate! J > > > On 02/02/2014 01:11, John Carl wrote: > >> J: I'm not gonna whip out any sort of direct Lila quote on ya Andre cuz >> the file a MD homie shipped me is gone and lost on a past laptop dead. >> But >> you're wrong. The essence of the Giant is SOM and if you can't see that >> then I don't even know what you're doing here. The truth of the >> projective >> judgement being a mirror holds true once again. It's YOU who doesn't >> understand the MoQ. Not one whit. >> > > -- > > "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production > deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." > -- Frank Zappa > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
