Hi John
I'm still not sure where you appear to have gotten the idea that the
Giant is the entirety of the social level - as that is how it appears
from what you say.
Pirsig references 'The Giant' during his visit to New York City and I'm
fairly sure that this was mainly to do with an instance of 'A' Giant and
not 'THE' Giant - i.e. NYC - although he does talk about other aspects
of 'The Giant'.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.
Are you saying that 'The Giant' is all social patterns, in all
societies, at all times and that SOM is the organising principle of this
'Giant'?
I'm OK with the idea that Intellectual patterns influence Social
patterns (regarding the organisation of Social patterns) in the same way
that Social patterns influence Biological patterns and Biological
patterns influence Inorganic patterns. But what I don't see is that
"...the Giant perpetuates itself over the generations and grows - via
intellectual SOM patterns. " I think it's a lot more complex than that.
Even if the Giant is the social level then, as SOM is not the dominant
intellectual pattern at all times and in all societies, this doesn't
make sense as this would mean that SOM would always have been present
and would precede Social patterns!
SOM will certainly have a significant effect on particular instances of
the Giant (societies, groups etc.) as a means of controlling or guiding
it - but this is limited to a particular instance or instances.
I also agree with you that the interplay of Social and Intellectual
patterns within a culture is complex - but this is more than the
interplay of SOM and societies which is the case you appear to be making.
Perhaps you could expand more on what you consider 'The Giant' to be and
how exactly SOM underlies it.
Cheers
Horse
On 02/02/2014 19:29, John Carl wrote:
Greetings Horse,
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:14 AM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote:
Hiya John
I'm not sure why you keep getting hung up on this idea that the 'Giant'
and 'SOM' are inextricably linked - I've got an idea as to why but I think
you're coming at it from the wrong direction and failing to see the wood
for the trees!
J: The MoQ postulates levels of evolution. Imagining something different
than what has actually evolved is like dmb says, outside of experience and
mere speculation. The Giant evolved according to social and intellectual
patterns so that's the wood. What trees do you think are blocking my view?
H:
SOM is a distinct set of patterns, intellectual patterns, as is MoQ,
subjectivism, objectivism, pragmatism and all the other -isms's that you
care to mention. These are the pre-dominant ways of describing reality in
our neck of the woods (i.e. the 'western' world). Add into the mix the
other occidental, oriental, aboriginal etc. ways of describing reality and
you end up with a huge selection of instances from which you can select
your world view.
'The Giant' is not the social level. It is an instance abstracted from
social patterns of value and is different within different contexts. The
New York 'Giant' is not the same 'Giant' as the Bangalore 'Giant' or the
London 'Giant' or the USA 'Giant' or the British 'Giant' or the European
'Giant' or the Chinese 'Giant' etc.. From what you're saying in your posts,
to say that SOM is the essence of the 'Giant' is to say that Intellectual
patterns of value precede Social patterns of value which, as far as I'm
aware, is the reverse of what Pirsig is saying.
J: Well I do think that intellectual patterns creatively influence social
patterns as well as grow out of social patterns. For one thing, people die
and new ones are born into societies and a lot of their behavioral patterns
emerge from long lasting intellectual patterns carried in books and
education. It is thusly that the Giant perpetuates itself over the
generations and grows - via intellectual SOM patterns.
H:
That intellectual patterns propagate by way of the Social level is, I
think, a given in MoQ terms. But that propagation is also dependent upon
Biological and Inorganic patterns of value also. Think in terms of
communications and protocol stacks (tcp/ip, OSI, I2C etc.) and you'll have
a good idea of how Intellectual patterns propagate. This shouldn't cause
you to confuse the means of propagation with the values of the levels and
what they represent - which I think you seem to be doing at the moment.
Anyway, that's how I look at it and I could be mistaken - but it makes
sense to me! :)
I see an interplay between social and intellectual patterns that is not so
one-way and simple.
Evolving intellectual insights have a huge influence upon future social
patterns or we'd all be stuck in a Middle Ages Theocracy.
Cheers backatcha Mate!
J
On 02/02/2014 01:11, John Carl wrote:
J: I'm not gonna whip out any sort of direct Lila quote on ya Andre cuz
the file a MD homie shipped me is gone and lost on a past laptop dead.
But
you're wrong. The essence of the Giant is SOM and if you can't see that
then I don't even know what you're doing here. The truth of the
projective
judgement being a mirror holds true once again. It's YOU who doesn't
understand the MoQ. Not one whit.
--
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production
deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
-- Frank Zappa
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