John said to Horse:
...I'm also claiming that the Giant runs SOM as it's life's blood. That is,
there's a direct connection with viewing subjects and objects as independently
real, and the pragmatic evolution of all Giants. I'm speaking metaphorically
here but I welcome closer analysis of that idea.
dmb says:
It seems pretty clear to me that your claim about the Giant is based on a
misunderstanding of a philosopher that is not Pirsig. Your claim about SOM
running the Giant confuses and conflates Pirsig's distinctions between the
social and intellectual levels. And, considering your repeated evasions and
deflections of my criticism, your claim to "welcome closer analysis of that
idea" seems to be as genuine as a three-dollar bill.
SOM refers to "our present construction of systematic thought itself,
rationality itself," and these "modes of rationality are not moving society
forward into a better world" because "the need for food, clothing and shelter
..no longer overwhelms everything else". "It [SOM] begins to be seen for what
it really is...emotionally hollow, esthetically meaningless and spiritually
empty." Social level values like fame and fortune are unrelated to our forms of
rationality. These are discrete and sometimes conflicting levels of values.
This distinction is on full display in the history of the 20th century, as
Pirsig explains in some detail. Fascism and fundamentalism are essentially
reactionary, anti-intellectual movements. Likewise, the intellectual level
values have been opposed to such social level authority since the days of
Plato. I mean, this distinction is hardly unique to Pirsig and so defying it
for no apparent reason (theist motives, maybe?) strikes me as bizarre and super
confusing.
"But to tear down a factory or to revolt against a government or to avoid
repair of a motorcycle because it is a system is to attack effects rather than
causes; and as long as the attack is upon effects only, no change is possible.
The true system, the real system, is our present construction of systematic
thought itself, rationality itself, and if a factory is torn down but the
rationality which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will
simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a systematic
government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that
government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the
succeeding government. There's so much talk about the system. And so little
understanding."
"Our current modes of rationality are not moving society forward into a better
world. They are taking it further and further from that better world. Since the
Renaissance these modes have worked. As long as the need for food, clothing and
shelter is dominant they will continue to work. But now that for huge masses of
people these needs no longer overwhelm everything else, the whole structure of
reason, handed down to us from ancient times, is no longer adequate. It begins
to be seen for what it really is...emotionally hollow, esthetically meaningless
and spiritually empty."
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