Hi Horse,
On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Horse <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi John > > I'm still not sure where you appear to have gotten the idea that the Giant > is the entirety of the social level - as that is how it appears from what > you say. > John: Sorry Horse, I bounce around a lot and it can get confusing. > Pirsig references 'The Giant' during his visit to New York City and I'm > fairly sure that this was mainly to do with an instance of 'A' Giant and > not 'THE' Giant - i.e. NYC - although he does talk about other aspects of > 'The Giant'. > Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. > Are you saying that 'The Giant' is all social patterns, in all societies, > at all times and that SOM is the organising principle of this 'Giant'? > J: I don't have my lila file anymore, it's lost on a dead hard drive but Pirsig describes the Giant as an archetype of something of which New York is typical. It is a social pattern but there's a lot of the intellectual that is mixed in as well. The New York Library and MOMA for instance. I'm also claiming that the Giant runs SOM as it's life's blood. That is, there's a direct connection with viewing subjects and objects as independently real, and the pragmatic evolution of all Giants. I'm speaking metaphorically here but I welcome closer analysis of that idea. That Royce quote I sent to Ant yesterday for one, explains in some detail the connection between the "party of good order" and Realism (which I deem as synonomous with SOM) Horse: > I'm OK with the idea that Intellectual patterns influence Social patterns > (regarding the organisation of Social patterns) in the same way that Social > patterns influence Biological patterns and Biological patterns influence > Inorganic patterns. But what I don't see is that "...the Giant perpetuates > itself over the generations and grows - via intellectual SOM patterns. " I > think it's a lot more complex than that. > > John: Well for sure a lot more can be said. And I'd been better to have said that the Giant grows and evolves according to social influences that have a SOM pedigree or backing. Horse: > Even if the Giant is the social level then, as SOM is not the dominant > intellectual pattern at all times and in all societies, this doesn't make > sense as this would mean that SOM would always have been present and would > precede Social patterns! > > John: Let me say it this way then: SOM as an agreed-upon metaphysical ground, perpectuates and legitimizes certain kinds of social patterns but not others - We learn what are the right rules for society in school and through objective science which operate according to SOM assumptions. As far as precedence, I think society comes first and SOM arises as the reification of social assumptions or hardening of social patterns of self and other into absolute status. That flow just seems right to me. It seems like a common sense observation of the way things are. I could be wrong; I'd like to know wherein I am. (that is, on this particular proposal - not in general ;) Horse: > SOM will certainly have a significant effect on particular instances of > the Giant (societies, groups etc.) as a means of controlling or guiding it > - but this is limited to a particular instance or instances. > > John: I think it's more general than instantial. SOM is Modernity's mythos. It's ubiquitous. Horse: > I also agree with you that the interplay of Social and Intellectual > patterns within a culture is complex - but this is more than the interplay > of SOM and societies which is the case you appear to be making. > > Perhaps you could expand more on what you consider 'The Giant' to be and > how exactly SOM underlies it. > > Most willingly Horse, I have done so and will do more. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
