> On May 27, 2014, at 4:57 PM, david <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ron said to John: > > The problem space is where American culture lives, but I would not say that > is where the contributors here at the MD live meaning the mental space deemed > the "problem". So attacking them as part of the problem does not support your > contention. > > > John replied: > My contention is what I make it. I hadn't really thought of attacking the > problem of anti-intellectualism here in MD because everybody who contributes > here seems pretty intellectual. Maybe too much so, but I gotta add that > intellect needs balancing sometimes, not suppression. I think being in our > heads is good, we just need to be in our hearts also. Attacking the > heartspace, because its not the headspace, is the wrong move. imho. > > > > dmb says: > John, you totally missed Ron's point. The "problem space" is SOM, the problem > addressed by the MOQ, not anti-intellectualism. Even further, the criticism > is that your anti-intellectualism is connected to your failure to get out of > the problem space. That is to say, you keep attacking intellect here in the > MOQ discussion group as if it were SOM, as if it were still the problem. > > Ron replies : Thanks for pointing that out, I was struggling with where I went wrong in that statement and how to clarify without driving John off. It was getting kinda wordy.... > > Ron said: > What good is freedom when you are too stupid to make good quality > intellectual decisions? Is being a slave to biological patterns truly leading > a life that's free? > > John replied: > I'd settle for good social decisions. Quality intellect is rare. > > > > dmb says: > Is somebody making a case for the freedom in biological values? I hope not. > That would be lame. I wonder what a good social decision looks like without > intellect doing the deciding. Isn't that what it means to have a society > that's guided intellect rather than tradition?
Ron: I was trying to tease out where John really stands when he uses the term "Freedom" he seems to have a bone to pick with intellect and authority leaving only two places to go. DMB: > > One point really worth stressing, I think, is that we can never discern the > difference between good ideas and bad ideas without intellect. > > One of the objections sometimes raised (against an intellectually guided > society) is that some ideas are bad ideas. Intellectual static patterns of > low quality should be trumped by social patterns, they might add. But, again, > we can never discern the difference between good ideas and bad ideas without > intellect. That's what we mean by intellectual values. It's not that we're > supposed to love every idea just because it's an idea. It's the quality of > the idea that matters, of course, and that's why we're supposed to care about > things like clarity, coherence, consistency with the evidence, honesty, > precision is the use of words and the relations between concepts. These > aren't arbitrary demands or oppressive rules used to squelch dissent or > anything like that. They are just some of the most common marks of > intellectual quality. Ideally, you want to raise this to an art form and > those will be some of the likely ingredients. The art of rationality requires > intellectual quality an d > then some. You gotta, gotta have it - even if it's not enough all by itself. > It's time to re-integrate the passions, the "affective domain of man's > consciousness," Pirsig says. Likewise, James says our best ideas will be > produced by thinkers who use ALL of their faculties. That's intellect in the > solution space, which is not to be confused with SOM (or with that mean and > cruel community college teacher who didn't like you). > > > Ron: Thanks for clarifying Dave, that is where I was headed with it. The ear marks of intellectual quality. Social quality is lost when no one knows what you are talking about. Or worse misunderstood . > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
