hey ian, ian, previously: > > So ... you say social change / political change (for > the better) is impossible. > I'd say it's very difficult - but not impossible - > requiring a lot of > hearts and minds changing on many levels, cultural > views of values > etc. ... it's the giant that needs changing in my > approach.
as hundreds of sages through the ages have said in different words, only you can free yourself. politics is not the answer (do i have to point this out!!!). the giant needs to be slain man. again this is not just me but hundreds of righteous dudes east and west saying this. for instance nietzsce calls the giant the dragon but his fate has to be the same: death. until the giant/dragon (st george and the dragon is EXACTLY about this) is slain there can be no psychological evolution, and we remain in the same old reality, forever fighting ourselves. > > Anyway, accepting that task as impossible you seem > to say ... (let me > put words in your mouth) ... "to hell with the rest > of the existing > world" ... it's already on its way out anyway. i am the existing world. the world is but a relationship between my self and i - the transcendent i - consciousness itself. this relationship is currently mediated by social factors that can never be fully transcended until everyone gets enlightened. hence the bodhisattva tradition, christ etc. we in it together like it or not. we can achieve some measure of liberation individually, detached from society, but i don't want to spend my life in a monastery. I > (Gav) personally will > retreat into my own ego-transcendant world where I > can interact with > the natural world on its own terms ... true to my > own belief ... end > of story ? no. i cannot do this because i am interdependent with society, as i said above. my freedom and the freedom of everyone are inextricably linked. 'no man is an island' - this is what john donne was saying and this is why hemingway used this poem at the start of his best book about the spanish civil war (nice segue) - the same territory that started this thread. if we wish freedom for ourselves - we wish it for all. BUT it is not something that can be imposed - this is clear - so how do we cultivate freedom. well by honest discussion for one. by engaging with the world with integrity, and sometimes you even have to fight for it. and though you will almost certainly lose if you do, freedom is still served...because it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. > > I have to ask ... do you have loved ones in that > world ... people who > are perhaps unwittingly part of that giant ? Or do > you see "us" (you > and the entities you care about) as quite distinct > from "them" (those > that comprise the giant) ? we and the giant are inseparable. individually we can achieve some measure of liberation but we cannot achieve full liberation alone; we must help each other untie the knots that bind, and keep untying them cos the giant will keep trying to tie you up. i guess a critical balance point will be reached (hopefully in my lifetime) where the giant's power is lessened relative to the liberating efforts of many. > > I guess what I can't quite believe is that in a > world where all of us > (all the enlightened survivors anyway) have > transcended our egos and > relinquished any social control - that there is or > will be no society > at all ? We've not just done away with the > prevailing model of society > - we actually have no society ? no the locus of control will shift - from social to individual. we will have no need of 'explicit society', if you like. no need for laws, prisons, any absolute restrictions of freedom. instead the harmony of nature will be enough, as it is for the rest of the planet. this is why i am harping on about the nature of this shift. we are talking about moving from one reality to a totally different one. this is a huge evolutionary leap. > > Society can never fix society ... as you put it ... > so individuals > must detroy it ? > These are purely practical questions for me. destroying the giant - explicit controlling society - is a job for every individual. it is done not through violence (for that is the giant's tool) but through love, patience, kindness, awareness, steadfastness. cheers gav > > Ian > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo!7 Mail has just got even bigger and better with unlimited storage on all webmail accounts. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
