I think you're missing my point here... though I may not be clear enough. My point is one of support value, rather than support cost. Is HP cheaper than Cisco when it comes to support? ... yes, hands down. Does HP provide the same level of support from a value perspective as Cisco? ... I would have to say no. Again, you get what you pay for. You're not paying for high value support... thus, HP will gladly throw new equipment your way and let you talk to a low-end tech all day long if it'll make you happy. It's worth it to them. Cisco, on the other hand, takes a different approach... you pay for support, but have access to a large pool of technical resources when things go awry... even access to the developers themselves. Keep in mind also that Cisco offers one of the best online documentation systems of any manufacturer in the world... becoming familiar with Cisco products is not hard... and it's free.
As to the price difference... we could argue features all day long... but how do you define "comparable" switches? Yes, both are Ethernet switches and both operate at 10/100/1000Gb... and if that's all you're after, then you shouldn't be looking at Cisco. Cisco offers some of the most granular and technologically advanced features in their product lineup... "comparing" these two switches requires a baseline for comparison. To some, Cisco's "cheap" in terms of what you get for the cost. To others they're ungodly expensive, but those "others" typically aren't concerned with the added features that you get with Cisco... thus HP makes the most sense, or any other vendor for that matter. HP is probably lower in overall device failures... but they have less than 20% of the switching market share. Compared to Cisco's 70%, that would make sense. I'm not arguing the "quality" of HP/Cisco switches here. You're right, both are rock solid! Aaron T. Rohyans Senior Network Engineer CCIE #21945 DPSciences Corporation 7400 N. Shadeland Ave., Suite 245 Indianapolis, IN 46250 Office: (317) 348-0099 Fax: (317) 849-7134 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://www.dpsciences.com/ "I want an Anti-Virus system that sends Arnold back in time to kill the hacker as a small child before he invents the virus..." "There are 10 kinds of people in this world... those who can read binary, and those who can't" From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 4:04 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Switch opinions >>It's a lame attempt to acquire market share by offering free support on the >>product line. ... >>That's not a selling point IMO. Free support? Perhaps in your view, Mr. MoneyBags, but getting a comparable product for with better priced support is of value to many people. And HP can afford to offer free support because they don't appear to incur a great deal of expense dealing with the hardware they're selling. That's their choice -- it's not a gimmick. I have worked in more places sporting Cisco gear than HP networking gear (probably 4-1), but my experiences with both have been very good. HP is ahead (lower) when it comes to the percentage of device failures, but that's not as telling as it might seem, because the Cisco gear was older. The point, though, is that there is no discernible difference for me in the quality of the Cisco switches vs the HP ProCurve switches. None. Both are solid, quality devices backed by strong technology companies. Given that point, why should I pay more for stuff that JUST WORKS, when I don't have to? My technology budget needs to cover lots and lots of things, not just switches and routers, so I need to be prudent with those dollars. If you look at the TCO for networking equipment, HP comes out ahead in many ways for many size organizations over Cisco. If it weren't for the fact that ripping and replacing an entire network is fraught with peril (and simply not a good use of time/money if things are working), then I would very often ditch Cisco switches for HP ProCurve on the 5-year TCO alone. And I'm sure I'm not alone on that point. This doesn't mean that I think that Cisco is bad. But it does mean that I think that the price differential of their equipment over HP buys you no material advantage. ASB (My XeeSM Profile)<http://XeeSM.com/AndrewBaker> Exploiting Technology for Business Advantage... On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rohyans, Aaron <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: "...Well, if I have to replace a $2000 switch because a $1 fan failed, quite a bit." In 15 years of working with this stuff, I can count on one hand how many fan failures I've had in Cisco gear... and even HP for that matter. Most gear is designed to be resilient enough that the most you're going to have to worry about is a pesky log message that a fan is running sub-optimally or has failed completely. My point is that HP knows this... as does Cisco... the odds of their gear failing like this are slim unless due to a defect in production... which you will most likely come across while the product is still under warranty. "...In my experience, in many organizations, network equipment has a much longer lifecycle than computers. A great many places *still* don't need anything more than 100 megabit to the desktop. So a 10-15 year usable lifetime isn't unrealistic. Obviously some shops need to upgrade more often than that, but many don't. I like that with ProCurve, I get to decide when my equipment is obsolete; HP doesn't do it for me." How is Cisco forcing you to change out your gear just because a product goes EoL? I understand that companies want to keep products under warranty, but even after EoL you have several years to phase your equipment out - if you choose. Part of the decision to purchase new infrastructure is the diligence to stay with tried and true product lines, such as ProCurve or Catalyst. From Cisco's perspective, most of their Catalyst switches have a 6-8 year lifespan until EoLed with 5 years beyond that... so 13 years of warranty, best case. As an extreme example, the Catalyst 6500 series switches have been around since the late 90's and still haven't been EoLed... they're on track to have a 20 year lifespan. HP is simply tailoring to companies who want to penny-pinch and squeeze every last ounce of use out of their gear... fair enough... but again, you have bigger problems than warranties by holding to this methodology from a Technology lifecycle standpoint. "...What does that have to do with what switch I should buy?" It's a lame attempt to acquire market share by offering free support on the product line. They don't have such offerings in their other product lines. Yet, this is how they "differentiate" themselves from Cisco... because they offer free support on one line of switches? Wow... stop the presses. That's not a selling point IMO. Free support? That sounds cheap to me... like consumer grade (NOTE that I am *not* calling HP ProCurve consumer grade). If I don't have to pay for it, what kind of "brainchild" individuals are manning the TAC? Why not offer free lifetime support/replacement on PCs/Servers/Monitors/etc? Again, you get what you pay for... err, not pay for. "...By that logic: Cisco owns LinkSys, LinkSys's stuff is cheap consumer crap, therefore, all of Cisco's stuff must be cheap consumer crap." Yep... that's the exact logic I was trying get across. A subordinate company sells junk, so that makes the parent company product junk. Where in my statement did you draw that conclusion? Seriously? "... I believe HP has been making switches longer than Cisco has." HP's definitely been around longer than Cisco, yes... but making switches longer, no. Unless you count the "old" days where HP marketed their "Ethertwist" line... but even then it was geared around networked devices... not networking devices. "...They certainly got a huge installed base, and have extensive layer two experience and knowledge. If you're talking routers, yes, Cisco has a definite edge. But we're talking switches." What do you consider "huge"? Cisco owns 72.3% of the Ethernet Switching market share... that leaves 27.7% for HP, Juniper, Alcatel, Dell, etc. And what is "extensive" layer 2 knowledge? Helping you setup LACP and 802.1q? I'm not knocking on HP here, but I doubt they have the knowledge "at the ready" to tackle complex switching problems. For the average everyday Joe... you're probably good to go, but for many Enterprises (who demand that knowledge), you might want to think twice. "...They do indeed promise immediate shipment via next day carrier. Strictly speaking, "delivery" is up to the carrier, I presume..." Interesting... so theoretically, it could take say, up to 10 days to get your replacement product? Again, HP is simply taking worst-case verbiage from Cisco and turning it around to show you how much better they are... err, aren't. "...In my experience, if HP doesn't have your part they'll ship you something better." Example? Somehow I doubt they're going to ship you "something better" on a lot of their products. Can you point me to where in their warranty that this is expressed? Is this Christmas? Aaron T. Rohyans Senior Network Engineer CCIE #21945 DPSciences Corporation 7400 N. Shadeland Ave., Suite 245 Indianapolis, IN 46250 Office: (317) 348-0099 Fax: (317) 849-7134 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://www.dpsciences.com/ "I want an Anti-Virus system that sends Arnold back in time to kill the hacker as a small child before he invents the virus..." "There are 10 kinds of people in this world... those who can read binary, and those who can't" From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:31 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: Switch opinions Or even divisions of HP... On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ben Scott <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Rohyans, Aaron <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Cisco doesn't offer power supply or fan replacements in their > warranty... All HP is doing here is offering free brakes/tires with every car > purchased... big deal. How many are we anticipating on replacing? And in the > grand scheme of things, how much is this really going to cost you (or not > cost you)? Well, if I have to replace a $2000 switch because a $1 fan failed, quite a bit. > Cisco only supports their product 5 years after EoL... Well, there's > a reason the product went EoL... and more than likely, it's had an already > extensive career in the network. In my experience, in many organizations, network equipment has a much longer lifecycle than computers. A great many places *still* don't need anything more than 100 megabit to the desktop. So a 10-15 year usable lifetime isn't unrealistic. Obviously some shops need to upgrade more often than that, but many don't. I like that with ProCurve, I get to decide when my equipment is obsolete; HP doesn't do it for me. > Cisco doesn't offer free TAC support. OK, but does HP offer free > support on all their products, or just ProCurve? What does that have to do with what switch I should buy? By that logic: Cisco owns LinkSys, LinkSys's stuff is cheap consumer crap, therefore, all of Cisco's stuff must be cheap consumer crap. > I can almost guarantee they don't see the types of issues Cisco > sees, let alone do they have the technical depth that Cisco does in the > TAC. You get what you pay for - or don't pay for. I believe HP has been making switches longer than Cisco has. They certainly got a huge installed base, and have extensive layer two experience and knowledge. If you're talking routers, yes, Cisco has a definite edge. But we're talking switches. > I highly doubt HP guarantees next day delivery on all RMA items... there's > fine print there somewhere (or conveniently excluded). They do indeed promise immediate shipment via next day carrier. Strictly speaking, "delivery" is up to the carrier, I presume. In my experience, if HP doesn't have your part they'll ship you something better. Until recently, the *entire* ProCurve warranty statement was (paraphrased), "HP guarantees the product against defects in materials or manufacture for the lifetime of the product." That's it. Full stop. One sentence. It's since grown come caveats for software and GBIC modules, but it's still very short and straight-forward. I wish more companies would take the lesson. -- Ben ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ --- To manage subscriptions click here: http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ or send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ --- To manage subscriptions click here: http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ or send an email to [email protected] with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin
