Thomas, Since, in that domain (terminologies, classification, ontologies...), it is not that easy to understand someone else's explanation without a sketching tool available, do you think I betray your thoughts if I sum it up as "Snomed should not be licensed as a "one size fits all" package but should be mainly usable as a set of tools and services in support of localized adaptations by national organizations"?
It is certainly a good thing to be discussed in order to have Meriterm fill the gap. Besides, as you probably remember, the main reason I don't like Snomed is because it is structured like a coding system and not a "narration ontology". As an example, I would say that a narration ontology should contain atomic concepts, like "fracture", "location", "right ankle", but should let "fracture of the right ankle" be built as a description structure (say a small tree that express that the fracture is located at the right ankle). Snomed inherited the incorporation of meta-concepts from its history as a coding system (the kind of component that is to be used in systems where information are stored in simple value-pair slots that don't allow for elaborated description structures), as would be the vocabulary of a massively agglutinating language... Since our languages are not massively agglutinating ones (we built sentences), each group has to invest a very long time selecting the subset that fits their "local language" (for example the subset for GPs). I have always seen Snomed as a system that could be fit to "fill slots in forms" but not as a proper vocabulary to tell a patient's health story... in my own terms, it means that it is not the proper component for modern applications. Philippe Le 13/03/2018 à 15:21, Thomas Beale a écrit : > > > The killer move would be to do something I advocated for years > unsuccessfully: *separate SNOMED technology from content *and allow > them to be independently licensable and used. Here, technology means > representation (RF2 for example), open source programming libraries > for working with ref-sets, specs and implems for e..g the constraint > language, URIs and so on. > > It should be possible for a country (the one I am most familiar with > w.r.t. to terminology today is Brazil) to create an empty 'SNOMED > container' of its own, and put its existing terminologies in there - > typically procedure lists, drug codes, lab codes, devices & prosthesis > codes, packages (chargeable coarse-grained packages like childbirth > that you get on a health plan) and so on. There are usually < 20k or > even 10k such codes for most countries (UK and US would an exception), > not counting lab analyte codes (but even there, 2000 or so codes would > take care of most results). But the common situation is that nearly > every country has its own version of these things, and they are far > smaller than SNOMED. Now, SNOMED's version of things is usually better > for /some /of that content, but in some cases, /it is missing concepts/. > > The ability to easily create an empty SNOMED repo, fill it with > national vocabularies, have it automatically generate non-clashing > (i.e. with other countries, or the core) concept codes and mappings, > and then serve it from a standard CTS2 (or other decent standard) > terminology service would have revolutionised things in my view. This > pathway has not been obviously available however, and has been a real > blockage. The error was not understanding that the starting point for > most countries isn't the international core, it's their own vocabularies. > > The second killer feature would have been to *make creating and > managing ref-sets for data/form fields much easier*, based on a > subsetting language that can be applied to the core, and tools that > implement that. Ways are needed to make the local / legacy > vocabularies that have been imported, to look like a regular ref-set. > > The third killer feature would have been to *make translation tools > work *on the basis of legacy vocabulary and new ref-sets, not on the > basis of the huge (but mostly unused) international core. > > I think IHTSDO's / SNOMED International's emphasis has historically > been on curating the core content, and making/buying tools to do that > (the IHTSDO workbench, a tool that comes with its own PhD course), > rather than promulgating SNOMED technology and tooling to enable the > mess of real world content in each country to be rehoused in a > standard way, and incrementally joined up by mapping or other means to > the core. I think the latter would have been more helpful. > > There is additionally an elephant in the room: *IHTSDO (now SNOMED > International) has been tied to a single terminology - SNOMED CT*, but > it would have been better to have had a terminology standards org that > was independent of any particular terminology, and worked to create a > truly terminology-independent technology ecosystem, along with > technical means of connecting terminologies to each other, without > particularly favouring any one of them. It's just a fact that the > world has LOINC, ICDx, ICPC, ICF and hundreds of other terminologies > that are not going anywhere. What would be useful would be to: > > * classify them according to meta-model type - e.g. multi-hierarchy > (Snomed); single hierarchy (ICDx, ICPC, ... ); multi-axial > (LOINC); units (UCUM, ...), etc > * build / integrate technology for each major category - I would > guess < 10 > * help the owning orgs slowly migrate their terminologies to the > appropriate representation and tools > * embark on an exercise to graft in appropriate upper level > ontology/ies, i.e. BFO2, RO, and related ontologies (this is where > the <10 comes from by the way) > * specify standards for URIs, querying, ref-sets that /work across > all terminologies/, not just SNOMED CT > > A further program would look at integrating units (but not by the > current method of importing to SNOMED, which is a complete error > because of the different meta-models), drugs and substances (same > story), lab result normal and other range data, and so on. None of > this can be done without properly studying and developing the > underlying ontologies, which are generally small, but subtle. > > I'll stop there for now. I suspect I have kicked the hornet's nest, > but since Grahame kicked it first, and I can run faster than him, I > feel oddly safe. Probably an illusion. > > - thomas > > On 13/03/2018 12:12, Grahame Grieve wrote: >> >> >> >> I am get the impression that SNOMED CT is hard to implement, and >> therefore wondered if we are at some kind of tipping point, like >> where HL7v3 was a few years ago, and some bright spark came >> along, and now we have FHIR that is gaining great traction in the >> health community due to the ease at which it can be implemented. >> >> >> this is very true, and I wish that someone would stick their neck out >> and do this at scale with >> a community behind them. Many of the parameters for how it could be >> done are obvious around >> free and crowd-support etc. But the big problem is that there is no >> capacity for it to happen as a >> palace revolution; it must be a full civil war first. >> >> Grahame >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> openEHR-technical mailing list >> openEHRemail@example.com >> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > -- > Thomas Beale > Principal, Ars Semantica <http://www.arssemantica.com> > Consultant, ABD Team, Intermountain Healthcare > <https://intermountainhealthcare.org/> > Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation > <http://www.openehr.org> > Chartered IT Professional Fellow, BCS, British Computer Society > <http://www.bcs.org/category/6044> > Health IT blog <http://wolandscat.net/> | Culture blog > <http://wolandsothercat.net/> > > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing list > openEHRfirstname.lastname@example.org > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
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