I think I see what you're saying. Well, on one hand it makes sense
because to establish the point of whether we're hardwired or not would
have great influence on how this conversation would develop.
On the other hand, Frank, again, if I understand you correctly, you say
that the sexualization of the woman's body (or parts thereof) is
effectively made by conscious choice or is result of how modern society
treats women, which as you say has nothing to do with hardwiring or
whatever animal past we may have.
This may be true but just like Paul's appeal to hardwiring, it seems to
me it would require some reference. That's why I said what I said before.
Again, I meant no disrespect to either of you, none whatsoever.
As for your coming to Israel. I haven't seen such a behavior in other
countries, although I couldn't say that I visited many or spent long
enough time in those I happened to visit. Consider this example that
happened to me just yesterday in one of the places where we eat lunch at
work.
Normally this place has no waiters - you take your food along the line,
pay by the counter, sit down, eat, leave the place. Your dishes are
taken after you leave.
This specific couple, in fact, the lady of the couple probably placed
some special order and hence it was brought to their table by the guy
who usually collects the dishes from the tables. So the guy politely
approaches the lady, she smiles back, he gives her the dish, she totally
removes him from her environment, turning back to her companion.
However, previously she was given some kind of a token to indicate that
she's the one to whom the dish had to be brought. So the poor fellow
kindly asks her to give that token back to him. Without looking at him
she picks it up and extends her arm in his general direction. No eye
contact, no nothing. He does not exist as far as her body language goes,
and trust me I watched very closely. He takes the token and leaves.
In my personal way of things, that was very denigrating behavior on her
part. Further, to ever sadder state of affairs, the waiter was black (as
in Ethiopian Jew), she was white (probably Ashkenazi Jew). I sat by the
table next to them.
These things happen not like once a week, but rather lots of times every
day around me. I would very much like to have you witness some of them
in person and then I would very much like to talk with you about these
things, also in person. That's obviously beside great many other things
I would like to show you in my country and themes that I might want to
discuss with you when you come.
Boris
On 12/10/2013 7:52 AM, knarf wrote:
No I am not appealing to authority. Paul was.
Paul made the assertion that we're hard wired in a certain way basing
that claim on "studies". The authority was "studies". That's what he
was appealing to. Hence: Appeal to Authority.
The problem with it is that I can't refute it. I don't know to which
studies he refers. I don't know anything about these studies: their
methodologies, their premises, who might be funding them, who they
studied, etc.
So the statement "studies say" is meaningless and doesn't add to the
argument.
As for your assertion that I've appealed to authority, well, I
haven't. At all.
And I don't have to refute the "hard wired" theory. It's up to the
person making the assertion to prove it. It's not up to me to
disprove it. Otherwise anyone could say any outlandish thing they
want, something completely without merit, and then say, "Well can you
prove it wrong? Then it must be true!"
All I said Is "I don't buy it," and that was because it hadn't been
proven.
I really don't think I have the energy to address the rest of your
post right now. It's late and I'm tired. Maybe tomorrow.
As much as I'd like to visit you and your country you'll have to
explain what any extended stay has to do with this discussion.
Cheers, frank
Boris Liberman <bori...@gmail.com> wrote:
Frank, purely for the matter of argument, not in any disrespect to
you or your reasoning, but didn't you just do the same (appeal to
authority)?
I mean - who says that we're not hard wired as Paul indicated? Are
there studies to support that this specific part of our nature can
be modified through proper nurture?
Who said that this problem while having ethical aspects in it, does
not
stem from the way the human "nature is", as you put it?
You really would benefit from coming over here and spending here
more than just a vacation, may be live here for some time. It may
prove very
interesting.
Boris
On 12/10/2013 6:50 AM, knarf wrote:
I don't agonize but I am concerned. And my concern is that the
blatant sexualization of women in the media is degrading to
them.
If you don't see it by now you never will.
Btw what you're doing is called the appeal to authority and it's
a logical fallacy.
Who says that? Please cite authors and studies. If you're going
to pull "studies" out of your hat I'll call you on it.
Who says we're hard wired that way? And how do they know it? And
just because we're hard wired (which I don't buy) how does that
make it right?
Finally, nature doesn't "dictate" anything. It just is. In any
event this isn't a natural problem, it's a human problem. It has
to do with how we humans treat each other. It's an ethical
issue.
But, as with so many discussions that we have Paul, we've reached
a stalemate. I don't think either of us will change the mind of
the other.
:-)
Cheers, frank
Paul Stenquist <pnstenqu...@comcast.net> wrote:
Paul via phone
On Dec 9, 2013, at 10:35 PM, knarf
<knarftheria...@gmail.com> wrote:
I know I said I was done with this thread. Apparently I
lied. ;-)
But I had to jump in to completely disagree with your
assertion wrt
the underlying premise.
To my mind the premise is that there is a huge disparity in
the way
that women and men are portrayed in the media including the
arts. Women tend to be sexualized far more than men and often
in denigrating and offensive ways. That includes but doesn't
have to mean nudity.
People can point to exceptions but that doesn't change the
fact that
women are sexualized far more often and in different ways than
men.
This doesn't mean that sex is dirty or wrong or that it
doesn't make
the world go 'round.
A bit of balance would be nice, that's all...
But those who study human sexuality contend that while men
take considerable pleasure in female nudity, most women are not
deeply aroused by the male body. Seems to be the way we're
wired. Why agonize over it? Nature doesn't dictate balance in
all things.
Cheers, frank, back to spectating - for now
Walt <ldott...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the underlying premise -- that to portray a human
as a
sexual
being is to inherently denigrate other aspects of their
humanity --
is
a false one.
All of this calls to mind a recent discovery for me: a
woman named Susan Oliver. I just happened to see her in an
episode of the Andy
Griffith
Show that was on the TV at the bar where I worked and was
struck by just how beautiful a woman she was, and as it
turned out, a woman at the
bar
happened to know her name.
So, I started doing a little reading up on her on the
internet, and
as
it turned out, she was an absolutely fascinating person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Oliver
Now, to be sure, my initial impression of her was that she
was just drop-dead gorgeous -- which is an observation I
wouldn't likely make
of
a male, no matter how handsome he might be. My interest
just isn't captured by attractive men. So, the very fact
that I noticed Susan Oliver at all could be laid at the
feet of sexual objectification,
or
sexism, whatever you want to call it.
But, as I started to learn more about her and her
accomplishments, I
developed a more wide-ranging kind of admiration for her.
The fact
that
my initial interest in her was sparked by sexual
attraction didn't
in
any way detract from my appreciation of her as an
accomplished woman any more than learning more about her
considerable achievements
minimized
my appreciation of her as a smokin' hot sex kitten.
It
“Analysis kills spontaneity.” -- Henri-Frederic Amiel
-- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from
the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the
directions.
“Analysis kills spontaneity.” -- Henri-Frederic Amiel
--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow
the directions.
