1] i never had a problem with the MS wheel mouse on 3 different (albeit
similar) boxes
(at least not any problem of which i am specifically aware)

2] i have had only one crash that i recall since going to Win2K
(i was drawing a selection box on a large area of 'empty' workspace
trying to find an invisible entity)
maybe your problems are Dell? 
i never really trusted 'name' brand boxes, they seem to put in the
cheapest stuff and proprietary configurations to lock you in compared to
'white box' systems
i certainly have had crashes using Win98 but mostly attributable to
resource drain

i have seen customized shortcut keys stop working, but not too often at
all lately and they seem to come back

3] can you please describe exactly how Orcad Dos schem is so superior
(are you referring to 3.0 SDT ?)
i am reasonably happy with protel schem, although there is clearly room
for improvement
i have Orcad Capture 9.x and it is ok, but prefer to use protel schem

4] if protel is severely overpriced then i imagine that competition will
step up to the plate so possibly this situation will self correct

off this topic but maybe long term relavent ...
anybody want to speculate whether Phoenix will be built on Delphi or
it's descendent?

Dennis Saputelli

JaMi Smith wrote:
> Darren
> That is precisely the problem, but even the "updates" still cause some
> problems and additionally some related crashes on some systems. The problem
> only goes away completely, at least as I have experienced it and as I
> understand it, by not using any version of MS intellimouse, no matter how
> new.
> This, as with so many other problems with Protel, seems to be wholly
> dependant on the phase of the day, and the time of the moon, unless of
> course you want to consider the alignment of the planets at the time of
> installation.
> The interesting thing here, is that I had been using a Logitech Wheel Mouse
> with Logitech Mouseware software successfully at another company for a long
> long long time with Protel98, with never a problem, and had also used Protel
> at home on my own system with the 99SE Trial version with SP6 (which also
> used the Logitech Wheel Mouse and Mouseware), again, whth never a problem.
> But when I started at my current position 6 months ago, with a brand new
> copy of Win 2000 pro with all the updates, on a brand new Dell Dimension
> 4100, and a brand new Protel CD and License, the first thing that I noticed
> was that I lost my shortcut keys shortly after starting the program.
> (Microsoft Wheel Mouse and Intellimouse software, although I did not realize
> the problem at the time.)
> I called the Protel 800 number in San Diego and always ended up talking to
> the same sales person (who I will not embarrass by mentioning their name
> here), and was never allowed to talk directly to anyone in Technical
> Support, but always had my questions relayed to TS and the answer given back
> to me by this salesperson.
> Notwithstanding the fact that I later found the problem listed in the Protel
> Knowledge Base, that sales person was unable to get the problem even
> addressed by TS, notwithstanding that it is a major bug that was reported on
> the first day of use of a brand new Protel Licensee.
> I stumbled around for several days until I actually discovered for myself
> that the problem was in fact with the Microsoft Wheel Mouse, and when I
> called Protel to tell them what the problem was and ask whether or not there
> was a fix for the problem, that was when I was told by this Protel
> salesperson that Technical Support had said that the problem "was not
> considered to be a problem" and "would not be fixed or even addressed until
> the next product release"
> Please note that Protel never even told me how to fix the problem, or even
> appeared to know that the problem had even existed and been reported all the
> way back in Protel98, and had been in the Knowledge Base since then, and as
> you have stated here, supposedly has been "fixed" at least to some extent on
> some installations, for 18 months.
> This bug is a known bug, or at least it appears to be known by everyone
> except Protel, and even with updated drivers is known to still have other
> "stability" issues (i.e.: still causes crashes with some systems), and yet
> Protel tells a brand new user of a brand new license, in essence, to go
> pound sand.
> Forgive me if I sound a bit irate, but this is absolute bull****.
> This does not qualify as Product Support in any sense of the imagination.
> In subsequent months, when Altium appeared and the phone systems were
> updated to reflect that fact, the same 800 number now gives you the option
> of pressing 1 for Sales, or 2 for Technical Support, which, as you can
> imagine, was a definite relief to me as I no longer had to deal with the
> technical incompetence of the sales people, and I can at least occasionally
> talk to someone who at least has a basic understanding of the problem that I
> try to describe.
> Unfortunately, this still has not solved any of the problems, and it has
> only relieved the frustration of having to go thru the sales people.
> I have subsequently learned that we appear to be stuck with a very expensive
> piece of s**t that I am forced to use if I want to continue to be employed
> by this company, since they have a 3 seat investment (with the last seat
> purchased 7 days after the price increase at full pop).
> While I will admit that 99SE is slightly better than 98, the product is
> still only useful as a tool to do Manual Routing, and it is severely
> severely severely SEVERELY SEVERELY SEVERELY OVERPRICED for that purpose,
> and as attested to by other recent posts here in this list, as a Manual
> Router, it is not much better today in its current incarnation than the
> original DOS product of eons ago, and the "schematic" system is absolute
> garbage, trash, dung, and not even equal to the old DOS 16 bit Orcad
> Schematic Capture, which I would gladly use if I could only find a
> legitimate copy and convince my boss of its superiority.
> Yes, Needless to say, Protel Performance and Support are both really and
> truly non existent.
> As has been stated over and over and over and over again in this list, the
> members of this list are the ONLY form of any support for Protel in any form
> whatsoever.
> I have however nonetheless convinced my bosses to buy me an newer system
> which might have a little better luck in trying to make Protel dance a
> little better, if not at least a little faster, and it has already arrived
> and I get to open the box in my new office tomorrow. It is a Dell 530
> Workstation with a 2.2 GHz Pentium 4 with 512 MB of cache and 512 MB of
> regular memory on a 400 MHz system bus with a 40 GB hard drive.
> I think the real reason that they bought a new system for me is that they
> also now have come to realize that Protel is a piece of s**t which they are
> stuck with that will never get fixed by Protel and/or Altium, and that
> support is truly non-existent, and that Protel will continue to crash on
> whatever system that we run it on, but that if it will at least run a little
> faster, than they don't have to listen to me scream and yell all day long
> about Protel running so slow and being such a "piece of s**t",  and I think
> that they also hope it will run fast enough that I will not kick and beat on
> the new computer like I do the current 1 GHz Pentium 3 that I have been
> using, or should I say abusing, up until Friday.
> Yes, another satisfied Protel Customer.
> Sorry to dump, but you did ask.
> Does this shed any insight into why I believe that there should be no
> covering up or playing down of legitimate problems with Protel here in the
> list.
> JaMi Smith
> * * *
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Darren Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Protel EDA Forum'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 11:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] Writing messages all day . . . the response . . .
> > JaMi,
> >
> > > (Note: A specific example of Protel's wholesale failure to
> > > provide specific support and fix a real problem is the
> > > Intellimouse software-keyboard problem which has been
> > > acknowledged as a problem in the Protel Knowledge Base ever
> > > since Protel98, and which is still not fixed, and which
> > > Protel has specifically stated (6 months ago) "was not
> > > considered to be a problem" and "would not be fixed or even
> > > addressed until the next product release" (which I doubt will
> > > happen even then). Actually, most members of this list know
> > > that the Logitech Mouseware is the solution to this problem,
> > > but they have had to learn that from this list, and not from
> > > Protel, and Protell still does not appear to know even that
> > > much about the problem.
> >
> > The only problem that I had with the Intellimouse was fixed about
> > 18 months ago by updating the mouse driver with latest one from
> > the good friends at MS.
> >
> > The problem was that after using the wheel all the shortcuts stopped
> > working. What problem are you referring to.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Darren Moore
> >
> >
> >

www.integratedcontrolsinc.com            Integrated Controls, Inc.    
   tel: 415-647-0480                        2851 21st Street          
      fax: 415-647-3003                        San Francisco, CA 94110

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