Hello Phill! same topic different day! ;)
Mr Oye you are very quick engage in a straw-man construction I will give
you that ;)
*We are talking about transparency. *
>From Ash:
I'm here to defend our reputation but also to acknowledge our flaws.
>
First of all good on him for having the balls! that's a tough job.
Since I think that the biggest cause of angst between developers and
recruiters is the lack of transparency. I offered two questions.
Ash has come on a public list and offered in public to try and do some
good. Given that the lack of transparency is the probably the biggest
problem, here is a chance to address it.
Phil, don't work for hours or for a salary.. but I do run my own business
and quote fair prices for jobs regularly.
I'm happy quote in public because quoting work is intrinsically public
anyway. Plus it is a fair and open contract between two parties who agree
knowing what the complete vertical will cost.
Conversely, If part of a business model is hiding information to take
advantage would you class that as good or fair?
Regards,
Stonie.
* Andrew Stone *+61 (0)412 488 251
[email protected] | http://drivenlogic.com.au
*
DrivenLogic Pty Ltd | Pragmatic Software Construction *
GPO Box 2746, Sydney, NSW, 2001, Australia
On 16 July 2012 09:13, Nicholas Faiz <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ah, the home loan example was left unfleshed out.
>
> One of my first programming jobs was in the home loans sector, and I saw
> how much mortgage brokers were making then (we're talking $500 an hour,
> etc.), without transparency. Since then some regulation has occurred, and
> mortgage brokers now openly state how they make their money (a sales
> commission structure from banks, I believe).
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 16, 2012 9:11:10 AM UTC+10, Nicholas Faiz wrote:
>>
>> Philoye,
>>
>> Amusing. :)
>>
>> But there is a big difference here. Recruiters offer their services to
>> coders (and potential employers). So I think transparency is fair there. In
>> that sense, it's somewhat similar to speaking with a mortgage broker, who
>> will act as a middle man and find you the best loan.
>>
>> I'm happy to explain what I earn to an employer, or a recruiter, and to
>> go through it and justify it. This is a somewhat moot point, as they have
>> to find out anyway. I think it'd be *terrific* if I saw a similar
>> transparency from a recruter.
>>
>> And note, this doesn't mean Ash has to explain things en masse to the
>> group. I'd just think it'd be a reform of sorts if recruiters began be
>> explaining how they take their cut, as middle men often do. It'd be a
>> factor for me when deciding to deal with one.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nicholas
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, July 16, 2012 8:31:28 AM UTC+10, philoye wrote:
>>>
>>> Nicholas and Stonie,
>>>
>>> Something got cut off on your emails.
>>> You know, the part where you post your hourly rate/salary in a public
>>> forum, along with its justification for us all to judge.
>>>
>>> p.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/07/2012, at 8:17 AM, Nicholas Faiz wrote:
>>>
>>> > Stonie great question! Recruiters who were transparent about what they
>>> charged, and could justify it, would win a lot of ground, I think.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15/07/2012, at 11:57 PM, Andrew Stone wrote:
>>>
>>> > • Permanent developer: 100K pa - what is your placement fee?
>>> > • Contract developer: Client Pays 100ph total (including all
>>> on costs) what is the developer paid ph?
>>>
>>> --
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