As in any relationship, such as marriage, and our christian walk, it's OK,
and even healthy at times disagree. This is how we grow together.
This is what I think God meant when he gave us a free will and a mind of our
own.
This is why there are many denominations, yet one Lord above all.
Certainly, some denominations border on heresy with some of their practices
compared to others, We therefore must choose which denomination suits our
personal understanding of scripture best, provided the fundamental
foundation of Christ, the Son of God, crucified, risen and coming again as
our only means of eternal life is at the base of it all.
There are things that the A/G holds as doctrine that I have never personally
agreed with, yet I still remain in the A/G, since I know that those areas
are not enough to woo me into another fold, nor do they effect my personal
relationship with Christ... but you won't see me waving the banner of
dissention over those issues either.
I have good friends who are Independent, some who are Apastolic, some who
are Luthern... all who (as I understand their commitments) acknowledge Jesus
Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.... yet we could go round and round
on certain doctrinal issues...
We agree to disagree agreeably...
Obviously we must do so prayerfully and with great humility. Pride has no
place in the christian walk as it relates to our dealings with others in the
fold, and our commitment to Christ.
I believe that someone can be honestly correct in their own belief, yet
perfectly wrong in it as well. I think, however, that the two opposing
views of NTC do not fall into that category.
Many folks can digest instruction in many various ways... Some need the
hard line approach to learn, on the other side of the room, they may need
their hands held in every lesson. This does not make one student any better
or worse than another student.
Those of you who have kids of your own, and all of us Commanders *should
understand this conceptl. We cannot motivate every kid the same way we do
the others. Adults are motivaed differently too.
The same process applies to the current NTC format. Some find it wonderful,
others find it questionable, and yet others don't even see it as enough of
an issue to even discuss. If we all agreed on everything, we'd be robots.
That's not God's plan. We don't have to agree on everything, but we must,
in our conflicts that have no apparent middle ground...
...Agree to disagree agreeably....
Parson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Soaring Golden Eagle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "clint grant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [RR] NTC Letter and Rebuttal
Thank you, Clint, for your thoughtful rebuttal. It is probably the most
eloquent rebuttal I have seen to date.
You have quoted some appropriate Scripture, and I agree with those
quotations. I don't follow your logic, nor do I agree with all of your
assumptions, so I come to some different conclusions.
Please allow me to offer a little more "iron sharpening" in hopes that it
will result in some general edification.
In a debate such as this, where good-intentioned men come to such opposite
views, there are two main causes for the divergence. One is simple
misunderstanding. Generally, clarification of misunderstanding results in
greater unity by clearing up misconceptions. The other cause is fundamental
disagreements. Further clarification of a position when there are
fundamental disagreements do not, in general, bring unity. Unity on an issue
can only come when one or both of the disagreeing parties change their
positions. In our case, the only hope I hold for unity on the NTC issue is
for all parties involved to get closer to agreement with Jesus Christ. That
is what I intend to do, and actually, if I do that well enough, then I
consider that change enough. I expect that any true believer in Jesus Christ
would say the same thing. If we all do that, then we will be able to
experience great unity.
In this case, I see both misunderstanding and fundamental disagreements.
Because I desire to see greater unity in the Body of Christ, just as Jesus
Christ prayed diligently for it on the night He was betrayed, I will make an
attempt to clear up some misunderstandings, and maybe even encourage some
unity.
First, let's look at some principles of sound Bible interpretation. (See
http://www.rangernet.org/powwow/interpretation.htm for an essay on the
subject.) One important principle in Bible interpretation is that Scripture
interprets Scripture. Clint, in your rebuttal, you quoted the Proverb about
men sharpening each other as iron sharpening iron. This proverb is true. You
then went to imply that intentionally being abrasive to our fellow
Christians was therefore a good thing. Frankly, enough abrasion will come
without creating it on purpose. If you search the rest of the proverbs, you
will find admonitions against creating strife and advise to stop it early
when it breaks out. In the New Testament, you will find a differentiation
between confrontation with the intention of restoring a brother or sister
and just plain quarrelling. There are times when we are actually commanded
to confront a brother or sister (Luke 17:3, 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2),
but keep in mind that we are!
only to do so in a way that can help people and that is not harmful
(Ephesians 4:29, Colossians 3:8). While the distinction between godly
confrontation and quarrelling is not always obvious to the casual observer,
there is a world of difference with respect to the intentions and the way it
is done. I hope I'm successful in doing the former without doing the latter.
You quote Romans 8:28, and it is true. You shouldn't gather from that
wonderful verse that it doesn't matter what you do to people because God
will turn it around for good, because Romans 6:15 is also true. Just because
God can even turn evil events around for good most definitely doesn't mean
that we should create even more evil for God to turn around. The apostle
Paul, writing under the anointing and inspiration of the Holy Spirit is most
emphatic on this point.
You seem to misunderstand my intentions and my heart. I harbor no resentment
or bitterness. The purpose of my NTC report is not to complain or condemn
people, but to confront an ungodly teaching technique that is causing harm
in the body of Christ and in Royal Rangers. I have forgiven all who are
involved. That is not an issue. What is an issue is the continuation of a
policy that I perceive as being contrary to the will of God as revealed in
His Word and confirmed by the Holy Spirit in me. My motive is love for my
brothers is Christ and for the boys we lead. Although I freely admit that my
report of NTC is biased in the sense that it was written to point out
something that needs to be corrected, I stand by its literal accuracy. Your
perceptions may differ, but I assure you that I am by no means the only one
who sees things as being so much in need of improvement. The words I wrote
were not bitter at all, or at least were not intended to be so, but full of
zeal for the Lord an!
d in righteous indignation at finding such hypocrisy in what is supposed to
be a Christian organization. I look at what I wrote (and write) as an
attempt to drive the evil out, just as Jesus Christ, in His righteous zeal,
sought to drive the merchants and money changers out of the Temple prayer
area. Just as Jesus encountered people who claimed that they did no wrong,
and no doubt justified their business location as a service to the
worshippers, I have encountered many people who see absolutely nothing wrong
with the teaching by counterexample at NTC, and who regard me as the
aggressor. My passion for righteousness is unabated.
From the same spring you don't get both fresh and bitter water. You don't
get it from my keyboard, either. Fresh water can be delivered gently (i. e.
in a cool cup of water on a hot day) or forcefully (i. e. with a
high-pressure nozzle suitable for getting the dirt and corrosive agents off
of a muddy car). It is the same fresh water. While forcefully delivered
fresh water may seem unpleasant at times, it is effective at cleaning and
removes corrosive chemicals. Salt water, on the other hand, is highly
corrosive, and can rust a car away after prolonged contact. In the same way,
I always endeavor to communicate in love and edification, be it gently, or,
when appropriate, in confrontation.
In your rebuttal, Clint, you wrote that I claimed that staff members were
evil. I never said that. I did, however, point out some actions that were
evil. Do you see the difference? The staff members were and are, to the best
of my knowledge, all saved and forgiven Christians living under grace, just
like I am. They are not fundamentally evil, and they can't be, unless they
really aren't born again. I have long since forgiven all of them for the
actions I condemn. I still hate the evil actions. Do you see the difference?
To me, it is quite clear. There is such a thing as perfect hatred. See Psalm
139 and many other psalms for the sort of thing I'm talking about. Like the
apostle Paul in Romans and John in 1 John, I affirm the grace of God, but I
also exhort God's people not to sin. Hypocrisy is a sin that is to be
confronted. Jesus Christ Himself, the sinless Son of God, often confronted
people for their hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is pretending, play-acting, and
portraying yourself a!
s something you are not. Jesus repeatedly rebuked people who would pretend
to be holy. The Pharisees and Saducees were teaching others to fully obey
God's Law and making a big show of their prayers and alms-giving, then they
would turn around and in secret take unfair advantage of widows and orphans
or heap up guilt and burdens on people and not help them bear the weight of
what they unfairly added. The familiar definition of a hypocrite today is
one who says "Do as I say, not as I do." This is exactly what the official
U. S. NTC script does. I see an opportunity to make NTC better by replacing
this "negative example" teaching technique with the kind of teaching Jesus
did and does.
Clint, your rebuttal seem to say that you relish hazing, abuse, and hardship
because of your ability to overcome these things and be strengthened by
them. In some situations, I do too. I have personally endured and overcome
much worse than NTC. Indeed, endurance of NTC is not even among the most
significant trials of my life. James does say to "count it all joy when you
encounter various trials," etc. What we seem to fundamentally differ on is
where those trials should come from. James also says that God does not tempt
anyone (James 1:13). If God doesn't tempt anyone, then I claim that God's
people have no business tempting anyone, either. In this fallen world, there
is plenty of sin, temptation, and evil to harass God's people. We really
don't need any self-inflicted wounds or "friendly fire" in our spiritual
warfare. It has been said that Christians shoot their wounded, but I
disagree. I claim that real Christians heal and strengthen their wounded.
Jesus Christ never called us to be a fraternity or gang that has hazing and
initiation rites, but that is exactly what seems to attract some people to
Royal Rangers and FCF. That is wrong. Such hazing and initiation rites can
certainly create a natural bond between the "survivors" and build a sense of
accomplishment and pride. I want nothing to do with such a thing, however,
because I know of a better way. There is an even stronger bond that comes
from banding together as a team against a common enemy (i. e. the enemy of
our souls), while supporting fellow Christians in nothing but loving and
affirming ways.
When you have had a good steak dinner, a dinner of earthworms is not
appealing. If you have never known anything but a dinner of earthworms, then
you might actually crave some to satisfy your hunger. They are a source of
protein, after all, and can keep you alive. To me, the best of the arguments
about how good NTC is in its current form are like wormburgers being served
by people who know of nothing better to eat than wormburgers. When I have
just been satisfied by a wonderfully balanced meal of choice cuts of steak,
vegetables, and a salad, all topped off by a desert of cherry pie and
vanilla ice cream, eating worms doesn't appeal to me at all. You can argue
all you want to about the merits of wormburgers, and you can react in fear
that I might cause your beloved wormburgers to be taken away and replaced
with something unknown to you, but you are not likely to convince me that
wormburgers are superior to a steak dinner, no matter how much you relish
earthworms. Now I realize!
that tradition is strong, and changes may come with difficulty, but just as
it is possible that some people may try a new food (and maybe like steak
dinners better than earthworms), it is possible that some people may decide
that Jesus' teaching techniques are better than the current NTC techniques.
My purpose is not to attack Royal Rangers, any individual, or the concept of
good national training. My purpose is to (1) campaign for improvement in NTC
that lines up with the Word of God, and (2) to warn some brothers in Christ
who might be contemplating going to NTC that it would be better to wait
until after NTC is changed to eliminate the teaching by counterexample.
By the way, Clint, if you are a child of God, then you are of great
consequence in the Kingdom of God. You must be important. God's only Son
died to save you.
___
Michael Paul Johnson aka Soaring Golden Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://eBible.org/mpj Rocky Mountain Outpost 207 New Creation Church
Jesus Christ is Lord! If Jesus came back today, would you be READY?
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