*Let the Church roll on!
*Let the Lord be praised and the spirit lifted!
When changes come to NTC let the *Lord be praised!
If changes NEVER come- Let the Lord be praised!
If NTC Sr.Guide wants to swagger and throw coffee cups- *Cool!
(*He can do that, and it's ok )
When the Gender of adult leaders isn't as important as Leadership-
*Praise the Lord!~
If only Men can be Commanders of Royal Ranger boys- *If only
Men can recieve training or be a part of FCF... *Rock-on!AMEN!
*Praise the Lord, and let the church roll on!
If RR wants to "think" the GMA equals the BSA Eagle.. *fine!
You may by *sovern rule think what you please! if that thought
'pleases you- inspires you to service, improves the *program..
*Grrrrrr-ate! (Great!)
The truth will set us free-
-=A=-
Andy Burns wrote:
> As in any relationship, such as marriage, and our christian walk, it's OK,
> and even healthy at times disagree. This is how we grow together.
>
> This is what I think God meant when he gave us a free will and a mind of our
> own.
>
> This is why there are many denominations, yet one Lord above all.
>
> Certainly, some denominations border on heresy with some of their practices
> compared to others, We therefore must choose which denomination suits our
> personal understanding of scripture best, provided the fundamental
> foundation of Christ, the Son of God, crucified, risen and coming again as
> our only means of eternal life is at the base of it all.
>
> There are things that the A/G holds as doctrine that I have never personally
> agreed with, yet I still remain in the A/G, since I know that those areas
> are not enough to woo me into another fold, nor do they effect my personal
> relationship with Christ... but you won't see me waving the banner of
> dissention over those issues either.
>
> I have good friends who are Independent, some who are Apastolic, some who
> are Luthern... all who (as I understand their commitments) acknowledge Jesus
> Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.... yet we could go round and round
> on certain doctrinal issues...
>
> We agree to disagree agreeably...
>
> Obviously we must do so prayerfully and with great humility. Pride has no
> place in the christian walk as it relates to our dealings with others in the
> fold, and our commitment to Christ.
>
> I believe that someone can be honestly correct in their own belief, yet
> perfectly wrong in it as well. I think, however, that the two opposing
> views of NTC do not fall into that category.
>
> Many folks can digest instruction in many various ways... Some need the
> hard line approach to learn, on the other side of the room, they may need
> their hands held in every lesson. This does not make one student any better
> or worse than another student.
>
> Those of you who have kids of your own, and all of us Commanders *should
> understand this conceptl. We cannot motivate every kid the same way we do
> the others. Adults are motivaed differently too.
>
> The same process applies to the current NTC format. Some find it wonderful,
> others find it questionable, and yet others don't even see it as enough of
> an issue to even discuss. If we all agreed on everything, we'd be robots.
> That's not God's plan. We don't have to agree on everything, but we must,
> in our conflicts that have no apparent middle ground...
>
> ...Agree to disagree agreeably....
>
> Parson.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Soaring Golden Eagle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "clint grant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [RR] NTC Letter and Rebuttal
>
> Thank you, Clint, for your thoughtful rebuttal. It is probably the most
> eloquent rebuttal I have seen to date.
>
> You have quoted some appropriate Scripture, and I agree with those
> quotations. I don't follow your logic, nor do I agree with all of your
> assumptions, so I come to some different conclusions.
>
> Please allow me to offer a little more "iron sharpening" in hopes that it
> will result in some general edification.
>
> In a debate such as this, where good-intentioned men come to such opposite
> views, there are two main causes for the divergence. One is simple
> misunderstanding. Generally, clarification of misunderstanding results in
> greater unity by clearing up misconceptions. The other cause is fundamental
> disagreements. Further clarification of a position when there are
> fundamental disagreements do not, in general, bring unity. Unity on an issue
> can only come when one or both of the disagreeing parties change their
> positions. In our case, the only hope I hold for unity on the NTC issue is
> for all parties involved to get closer to agreement with Jesus Christ. That
> is what I intend to do, and actually, if I do that well enough, then I
> consider that change enough. I expect that any true believer in Jesus Christ
> would say the same thing. If we all do that, then we will be able to
> experience great unity.
>
> In this case, I see both misunderstanding and fundamental disagreements.
> Because I desire to see greater unity in the Body of Christ, just as Jesus
> Christ prayed diligently for it on the night He was betrayed, I will make an
> attempt to clear up some misunderstandings, and maybe even encourage some
> unity.
>
> First, let's look at some principles of sound Bible interpretation. (See
> http://www.rangernet.org/powwow/interpretation.htm for an essay on the
> subject.) One important principle in Bible interpretation is that Scripture
> interprets Scripture. Clint, in your rebuttal, you quoted the Proverb about
> men sharpening each other as iron sharpening iron. This proverb is true. You
> then went to imply that intentionally being abrasive to our fellow
> Christians was therefore a good thing. Frankly, enough abrasion will come
> without creating it on purpose. If you search the rest of the proverbs, you
> will find admonitions against creating strife and advise to stop it early
> when it breaks out. In the New Testament, you will find a differentiation
> between confrontation with the intention of restoring a brother or sister
> and just plain quarrelling. There are times when we are actually commanded
> to confront a brother or sister (Luke 17:3, 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2),
> but keep in mind that we are!
> only to do so in a way that can help people and that is not harmful
> (Ephesians 4:29, Colossians 3:8). While the distinction between godly
> confrontation and quarrelling is not always obvious to the casual observer,
> there is a world of difference with respect to the intentions and the way it
> is done. I hope I'm successful in doing the former without doing the latter.
>
> You quote Romans 8:28, and it is true. You shouldn't gather from that
> wonderful verse that it doesn't matter what you do to people because God
> will turn it around for good, because Romans 6:15 is also true. Just because
> God can even turn evil events around for good most definitely doesn't mean
> that we should create even more evil for God to turn around. The apostle
> Paul, writing under the anointing and inspiration of the Holy Spirit is most
> emphatic on this point.
>
> You seem to misunderstand my intentions and my heart. I harbor no resentment
> or bitterness. The purpose of my NTC report is not to complain or condemn
> people, but to confront an ungodly teaching technique that is causing harm
> in the body of Christ and in Royal Rangers. I have forgiven all who are
> involved. That is not an issue. What is an issue is the continuation of a
> policy that I perceive as being contrary to the will of God as revealed in
> His Word and confirmed by the Holy Spirit in me. My motive is love for my
> brothers is Christ and for the boys we lead. Although I freely admit that my
> report of NTC is biased in the sense that it was written to point out
> something that needs to be corrected, I stand by its literal accuracy. Your
> perceptions may differ, but I assure you that I am by no means the only one
> who sees things as being so much in need of improvement. The words I wrote
> were not bitter at all, or at least were not intended to be so, but full of
> zeal for the Lord an!
> d in righteous indignation at finding such hypocrisy in what is supposed to
> be a Christian organization. I look at what I wrote (and write) as an
> attempt to drive the evil out, just as Jesus Christ, in His righteous zeal,
> sought to drive the merchants and money changers out of the Temple prayer
> area. Just as Jesus encountered people who claimed that they did no wrong,
> and no doubt justified their business location as a service to the
> worshippers, I have encountered many people who see absolutely nothing wrong
> with the teaching by counterexample at NTC, and who regard me as the
> aggressor. My passion for righteousness is unabated.
>
> From the same spring you don't get both fresh and bitter water. You don't
> get it from my keyboard, either. Fresh water can be delivered gently (i. e.
> in a cool cup of water on a hot day) or forcefully (i. e. with a
> high-pressure nozzle suitable for getting the dirt and corrosive agents off
> of a muddy car). It is the same fresh water. While forcefully delivered
> fresh water may seem unpleasant at times, it is effective at cleaning and
> removes corrosive chemicals. Salt water, on the other hand, is highly
> corrosive, and can rust a car away after prolonged contact. In the same way,
> I always endeavor to communicate in love and edification, be it gently, or,
> when appropriate, in confrontation.
>
> In your rebuttal, Clint, you wrote that I claimed that staff members were
> evil. I never said that. I did, however, point out some actions that were
> evil. Do you see the difference? The staff members were and are, to the best
> of my knowledge, all saved and forgiven Christians living under grace, just
> like I am. They are not fundamentally evil, and they can't be, unless they
> really aren't born again. I have long since forgiven all of them for the
> actions I condemn. I still hate the evil actions. Do you see the difference?
> To me, it is quite clear. There is such a thing as perfect hatred. See Psalm
> 139 and many other psalms for the sort of thing I'm talking about. Like the
> apostle Paul in Romans and John in 1 John, I affirm the grace of God, but I
> also exhort God's people not to sin. Hypocrisy is a sin that is to be
> confronted. Jesus Christ Himself, the sinless Son of God, often confronted
> people for their hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is pretending, play-acting, and
> portraying yourself a!
> s something you are not. Jesus repeatedly rebuked people who would pretend
> to be holy. The Pharisees and Saducees were teaching others to fully obey
> God's Law and making a big show of their prayers and alms-giving, then they
> would turn around and in secret take unfair advantage of widows and orphans
> or heap up guilt and burdens on people and not help them bear the weight of
> what they unfairly added. The familiar definition of a hypocrite today is
> one who says "Do as I say, not as I do." This is exactly what the official
> U. S. NTC script does. I see an opportunity to make NTC better by replacing
> this "negative example" teaching technique with the kind of teaching Jesus
> did and does.
>
> Clint, your rebuttal seem to say that you relish hazing, abuse, and hardship
> because of your ability to overcome these things and be strengthened by
> them. In some situations, I do too. I have personally endured and overcome
> much worse than NTC. Indeed, endurance of NTC is not even among the most
> significant trials of my life. James does say to "count it all joy when you
> encounter various trials," etc. What we seem to fundamentally differ on is
> where those trials should come from. James also says that God does not tempt
> anyone (James 1:13). If God doesn't tempt anyone, then I claim that God's
> people have no business tempting anyone, either. In this fallen world, there
> is plenty of sin, temptation, and evil to harass God's people. We really
> don't need any self-inflicted wounds or "friendly fire" in our spiritual
> warfare. It has been said that Christians shoot their wounded, but I
> disagree. I claim that real Christians heal and strengthen their wounded.
>
> Jesus Christ never called us to be a fraternity or gang that has hazing and
> initiation rites, but that is exactly what seems to attract some people to
> Royal Rangers and FCF. That is wrong. Such hazing and initiation rites can
> certainly create a natural bond between the "survivors" and build a sense of
> accomplishment and pride. I want nothing to do with such a thing, however,
> because I know of a better way. There is an even stronger bond that comes
> from banding together as a team against a common enemy (i. e. the enemy of
> our souls), while supporting fellow Christians in nothing but loving and
> affirming ways.
>
> When you have had a good steak dinner, a dinner of earthworms is not
> appealing. If you have never known anything but a dinner of earthworms, then
> you might actually crave some to satisfy your hunger. They are a source of
> protein, after all, and can keep you alive. To me, the best of the arguments
> about how good NTC is in its current form are like wormburgers being served
> by people who know of nothing better to eat than wormburgers. When I have
> just been satisfied by a wonderfully balanced meal of choice cuts of steak,
> vegetables, and a salad, all topped off by a desert of cherry pie and
> vanilla ice cream, eating worms doesn't appeal to me at all. You can argue
> all you want to about the merits of wormburgers, and you can react in fear
> that I might cause your beloved wormburgers to be taken away and replaced
> with something unknown to you, but you are not likely to convince me that
> wormburgers are superior to a steak dinner, no matter how much you relish
> earthworms. Now I realize!
> that tradition is strong, and changes may come with difficulty, but just as
> it is possible that some people may try a new food (and maybe like steak
> dinners better than earthworms), it is possible that some people may decide
> that Jesus' teaching techniques are better than the current NTC techniques.
>
> My purpose is not to attack Royal Rangers, any individual, or the concept of
> good national training. My purpose is to (1) campaign for improvement in NTC
> that lines up with the Word of God, and (2) to warn some brothers in Christ
> who might be contemplating going to NTC that it would be better to wait
> until after NTC is changed to eliminate the teaching by counterexample.
>
> By the way, Clint, if you are a child of God, then you are of great
> consequence in the Kingdom of God. You must be important. God's only Son
> died to save you.
>
> ___
>
> Michael Paul Johnson aka Soaring Golden Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> http://eBible.org/mpj Rocky Mountain Outpost 207 New Creation Church
> Jesus Christ is Lord! If Jesus came back today, would you be READY?
>
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