I did subtract them from hits. That's why his effective BA is lower. On Dec 18, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Beaudoin, John wrote:
> That's the problem with using some stats. You can't just subtract the caught > stealing from the stolen. The caught stealing were "outs". Not just one > fewer base. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Sent: Fri Dec 18 13:58:02 2009 > Subject: Re: Dealing Ellsbury? > > 188 hits > = 143 Singles > 27 doubles > 10 Triples > 8 HRs > > Add 70SBs - 12CS and you have the equivalent of > 61 Singles > 75 Doubles > 10 Triples > 8 HRs > > I > On Dec 18, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Ray Salemi wrote: > > > How did you do that transformation? > > > > On 12/18/09, Charles Battikha <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Another stat for Jacoby.... > >> > >> If you take into account 70 steals/12 caught stealing, you have > >> > >> BA: 285 > >> OB: 334 > >> SLG: 468 > >> OBS: 802 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Ray Salemi wrote: > >> > >>> It's actually worse than Power/Speed. It's hitting speed. > >>> > >>> here are the BA/OBA/SLG/OPS numbers for both from last year. > >>> > >>> Ellsbury: > >>> > >>> .301 .355 .415 .770 > >>> > >>> Gonzalez: > >>> .277 .407 .551 .958 > >>> > >>> No contest. > >>> > >>> Gonzalez gets on base more often and hit's the ball further. > >>> > >>> Ray > >>> > >>> PS. This is a great example of the limitations of batting average. > >>> > >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Matt & Olga McSorley > >>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> We've devolved into the scout/stat argument again. Here is the real issue > >>> in making the decision to trade Ellsbury for Adrian Gonzalez: > >>> > >>> Power>Speed. > >>> > >>> -- Matt > >>> > >>> From: Ray Salemi <[email protected]> > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 11:46:29 AM > >>> Subject: Re: Dealing Ellsbury? > >>> > >>> I am ashamed. > >>> > >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Tom Salemi <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> Chain of Command was a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode.....c'mon > >>> people. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Ray Salemi <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> "Stat's are valuable" First time I've ever heard you utter that phrase on > >>> this list. > >>> > >>> And who doesn't want to hear about Deep Space Nine? (That was an obscure > >>> reference. Good job!) > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Beaudoin, John > >>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> If you’re going to use my name, then please don’t speak for me and say > >>> that I dismiss stats completely. I fully admit they are valuable and my > >>> point, yet again, is that some people look only at the stats. Why can’t > >>> someone say that they like the way a guy plays. Based on Pedroia’s > >>> statiscal body size and weight, he shouldn’t have been given a chance. > >>> Thank God there are scouts who see beyond stats. Or will you argue that > >>> weight and height are not stats? > >>> > >>> > >>> How can you possibly say that objective counting says that Ellsbury > >>> doesn’t get to as many balls? And who the heck wants to hear about Star > >>> Trek Deep Space Nine during a baseball discussion? How many players > >>> compared to Ellsbury in centerfield have to play in a ballpark with a > >>> friggin triangle and a center field that is laid out just like Fenway > >>> Park? Because of all the variables in baseball, you can’t draw concrete > >>> conclusions. You’re entitled to your opinion, but you should not tell me > >>> my opinion and then argue against it. Stats are valuable, but they are > >>> only a piece of what I use to form my opinions. I believe that others on > >>> here talk stats all the time and I don’t use anything but stats to form > >>> their opinions. Or am I to believe that the few people on here who think > >>> Ellsbury isn’t as good a centerfielder as JD Drew is a rightfielder must > >>> be smarter than … say … 95% of the fans of baseball? > >>> > >>> > >>> John > >>> > >>> > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ray Salemi > >>> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:47 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Re: Dealing Ellsbury? > >>> > >>> > >>> I think Bill James would be unhappy to hear his name used this way. > >>> > >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:05 AM, William Marino <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I will take a good scout, with a proven track record, over Bill James any > >>> day of the week. > >>> > >>> > >>> I got to see Bill James speak at the Museum of Science and I asked him a > >>> question about this topic. I asked him if teams go through all this > >>> statistical analysis, but then make the decision based on the opinion that > >>> "he has a pretty swing." > >>> > >>> Bill James actually batted me down a bit in his answer. He said that he > >>> felt this question of stats vs. scouts was a false question. He believes > >>> that while stats are valuable, and need to be used, that scouts have > >>> thousands of hours of experience and also know what they are talking > >>> about. > >>> > >>> John's mistake has been to dismiss stats completely, as he did earlier in > >>> the thread. Stats provide insight. They especially provide insight to > >>> those of use who do not have thousands of hours watching ballplayers and > >>> who don't watch them every day. Fans are especially prone to only > >>> remember plays that support their opinion. > >>> > >>> John claims that Ellbury gets to more balls than most players, but > >>> objective counting says Ellsbury doesn't. In this case, intuition has to > >>> give way to counting. I'm sorry, but no amount of intuition will make the > >>> number four into the number five (even if you are being tortured by a > >>> Cardassian sadist). > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Author of "Leading After a Layoff: Reignite Your Team's Productivity in > >>> Just 12 Weeks" > >>> www.leadingafteralayoff.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Author of "Leading After a Layoff: Reignite Your Team's Productivity in > >>> Just 12 Weeks" > >>> www.leadingafteralayoff.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Author of "Leading After a Layoff: Reignite Your Team's Productivity in > >>> Just 12 Weeks" > >>> www.leadingafteralayoff.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]. > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >> "Red Sox Citizens" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected]. > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Sent from my mobile device > > > > Author of "Leading After a Layoff: Reignite Your Team's Productivity > > in Just 12 Weeks" > > www.leadingafteralayoff.com > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Red Sox Citizens" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Red Sox Citizens" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Red Sox Citizens" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/redsoxcitizens?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the 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