Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Christopher Woods wrote: Personally I'd rather have naff analogue with continuous audio where I can gist the few words I miss, rather than have a lossy (moreso than analogue, arguably) digital signal with squelchy audio and dropouts every so often. I put up with it on my PC's freeview receiver, but I still find myself wandering into the kitchen to tune in on the analogue set. I think I'm a bit strange. IIRC subjective quality tests have shown that poor quality audio causes a reduction in reported *video* quality of one point on the CCIR 5-point subjective quality scale. I can probably dig out a reference if anyone's sufficiently interested. Which suggests that people in general are even weirder than you think that you are, if that's any comfort. :-) S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
FWIW, I think not everyone is the same in this regard. Personally, I also prefer to watch a clear picture with picture sound breaking up occasionally than every programme behind a snow scene, no matter how perfect the audio might be. I'd rather just listen to the radio if the latter was the case! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Woods Sent: 20 May 2008 02:20 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels You'd think... But then my first flat in London barely managed to get analogue... I actually got a digital box in the first place because it offered a better picture! A clear picture that broke up once every 90 seconds was preferable to watching fuzz and snow. Interesting you should say that, I was thinking about this whilst watching the footie on the TV the other day - our analogue reception is awful (and we don't have a roof aerial where we are at the moment, so it's bunny ears all round) and whilst the picture is awful, bar a few moments of static the audio is quite fine. The contiguousness of the audio also helps with tolerance - I can quite happily tolerate a poor quality video feed if the audio's fine. Same goes for cinema - people seem to put up with awful quality video so long as the sound's good (odd really, a strange psychological thing which must have some link with the way our brains interpret natural sound, and the way it introduces its aural coping mechanisms when our eyes are starved of sufficient input). Personally I'd rather have naff analogue with continuous audio where I can gist the few words I miss, rather than have a lossy (moreso than analogue, arguably) digital signal with squelchy audio and dropouts every so often. I put up with it on my PC's freeview receiver, but I still find myself wandering into the kitchen to tune in on the analogue set. I think I'm a bit strange. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
The only option then was really to use the NTL analogue feed they put down the coax. Friendly engineer gave us some F type ends and cable and we could at least get 1 to 4. And Sky one audio on the FM. The old NYNEX FM hook up - that takes me back. It seemed amazing at the time, to get stereo sound on some channels you could tune into them on your FM radio instead. I didn't have a NICAM TV then, and NICAM support was a bit hit and miss on the old Scientific Atlanta 8600 series boxes anyway. And as an added bonus you got a cable exclusive station and a few international stations thrown in too, like VOA and the BBC World Service. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Surely in London I should be getting more than BBC One (sometimes), BBC Two (sometimes), Sky Three and Dave. I find it funny that I can get better broadcast television from a internet startup of untested legality than I do from actual broadcasting. You'd think... But then my first flat in London barely managed to get analogue... I actually got a digital box in the first place because it offered a better picture! A clear picture that broke up once every 90 seconds was preferable to watching fuzz and snow. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
You'd think... But then my first flat in London barely managed to get analogue... I actually got a digital box in the first place because it offered a better picture! A clear picture that broke up once every 90 seconds was preferable to watching fuzz and snow. Interesting you should say that, I was thinking about this whilst watching the footie on the TV the other day - our analogue reception is awful (and we don't have a roof aerial where we are at the moment, so it's bunny ears all round) and whilst the picture is awful, bar a few moments of static the audio is quite fine. The contiguousness of the audio also helps with tolerance - I can quite happily tolerate a poor quality video feed if the audio's fine. Same goes for cinema - people seem to put up with awful quality video so long as the sound's good (odd really, a strange psychological thing which must have some link with the way our brains interpret natural sound, and the way it introduces its aural coping mechanisms when our eyes are starved of sufficient input). Personally I'd rather have naff analogue with continuous audio where I can gist the few words I miss, rather than have a lossy (moreso than analogue, arguably) digital signal with squelchy audio and dropouts every so often. I put up with it on my PC's freeview receiver, but I still find myself wandering into the kitchen to tune in on the analogue set. I think I'm a bit strange. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Perhaps someone should tell them about BDA and the WinTV-Nova-T500 cards? Much better to source direct from digital than encode from a STB, surely? 2008/5/17 Alan Pope [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:02:24PM +0100, Richard Compston wrote: I don't know if Zattoo are using Freeview or Sky boxes, but I'm guessing Freeview - the blocking I've been seeing is very similar to what I get on my telly when a 747 flies overhead ;) I often see dialogs on the screen which look the same as those my Humax PVR pops up now and then. So I'd bet on the former. Cheers, Al. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Good point Gareth 'News 24' is streamed from a SDI source. We moved from analogue to digital capture cards about four/five years ago the difference in quality was immediately noticable - bitrate frame size for Flash has been upped of course, so looks even better (the current encoders are a tad old I think the cards are a bit past the sell by date: the windows real streams we've moved across to the new boxes already look better). But I still think the quality is rather poor for what they're doing - Siemens stream some stuff from digi-boxes without looking that soft. What kit did the Beeb use, and what do they use now? (fascinated by the choices in tech) Also (off-topic slightly) does anybody know what kit the radio studios use for the automatic level ducking when a DJ's speaking over the intro / tail of a track? I've seen what looks like a sidechaining compressor in the background of some shots on programmes like Timelapse or suchlike (where a DJ's being interviewed in the studio), but this assumption is largely based on the visible LED activity on the front panel of the device when the DJ's seen speaking in shot (sat next to the broadcast mic at the desk). Unfortunately though the interesting stuff (the hardware!) has always never been in focus so I've not been able to identify the kit :( If someone knows someone who knows and can ask them, that's also quite acceptable ;)
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
What kit did the Beeb use, and what do they use now? (fascinated by the choices in tech) Also (off-topic slightly) does anybody know what kit the radio studios use for the automatic level ducking when a DJ's speaking over the intro / tail of a track? I've seen what looks like a sidechaining compressor in the background of some shots on programmes like Timelapse or suchlike (where a DJ's being interviewed in the studio), but this assumption is largely based on the visible LED activity on the front panel of the device when the DJ's seen speaking in shot (sat next to the broadcast mic at the desk). Unfortunately though the interesting stuff (the hardware!) has always never been in focus so I've not been able to identify the kit :( If someone knows someone who knows and can ask them, that's also quite acceptable ;) I can¹t talk for network radio but when I was on BBC Local Radio we did that with a fader!
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
What kit did the Beeb use, and what do they use now? (fascinated by the choices in tech) No idea about the rest of the BBC, but we do the TV Encoding with Osprey 540 cards in hp DL360G5 servers at Bush running Windows. Windows media audio encoding is also done here at Bush house using Osprey 230 cards in hp DL360G5 servers running Windows. We have our own bespoke software to control the scheduling of clip encoding at Bush (using the Windows Media and Real SDKs) and drop the content to Borg (the system that puts content on our web/clip servers) or Akamai as appropriate. Our Real encoding is done at Maidenhead by Siemens. IIRC on a load of rather old Sun Netra servers with the scheduling controlled by cron. There is another bespoke system called Bob that maintains the crontabs on the boxes. Audio gets to MH from BU via a number of Intraplex cards and E1 lines. The rest of the BBC radio encodes their Real files in pretty much the same way, although they may get the audio to MH in different ways. Since we are looking into delivering other formats beyond Real and Windows we are in the process of evaluating the easiest way to do this, so it is likely that things will be different for the World Service in a years time. Also (off-topic slightly) does anybody know what kit the radio studios use for the automatic level ducking when a DJ's speaking over the intro / tail of a track? I've seen what looks like a sidechaining compressor in the background of some shots on programmes like Timelapse or suchlike (where a DJ's being interviewed in the studio), but this assumption is largely based on the visible LED activity on the front panel of the device when the DJ's seen speaking in shot (sat next to the broadcast mic at the desk). Unfortunately though the interesting stuff (the hardware!) has always never been in focus so I've not been able to identify the kit :( If someone knows someone who knows and can ask them, that's also quite acceptable ;) We have these things called an SM. Most of the older studios come with them, although they are less popular in newer studio builds but you can sometimes share with another studio. And some of them react faster than others to excessive volume levels judging by the level of the FARSA network this morning :) -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH (with apologies to the Studio Managers before I get lynched in the bar tomorrow)
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As others have already said BHX is the extension to London Broadcasting House, apologies for the lapse into BBC TLAs. No idea what the site code is for the Mailbox, if any does know then feel free to email me it - because I can't find a list on Gateway :) I'm not sure if it has a proper TLA, but in CCA it's referred to as BM. (It took me ages to get my head around the fact that NT is Newcastle, NO is Nottingham, and NC is Norwich.) Broadcasting House is sometimes LBH, to identify it as being in London, rather than any of the other ones around the country. - MD
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Also (off-topic slightly) does anybody know what kit the radio studios use for the automatic level ducking when a DJ's speaking over the intro / tail of a track? I've seen what looks like a sidechaining compressor in the background of some shots on programmes like Timelapse or suchlike (where a DJ's being interviewed in the studio), but this assumption is largely based on the visible LED activity on the front panel of the device when the DJ's seen speaking in shot (sat next to the broadcast mic at the desk). Unfortunately though the interesting stuff (the hardware!) has always never been in focus so I've not been able to identify the kit :( If someone knows someone who knows and can ask them, that's also quite acceptable ;) I can help with that one! There's no box itself which auto-ducks the music when the dj speaks, the presenters either have their mic a little high up in the mix with their trim controls, or they fader wank¹ as its called in the business. However, I know the effect you¹re hearing. Part one of the story is that each mic is pre-processed before going into the desk. Not sure what R1 use now they¹ve got fancy digital desks with dynamics compression built in, but the industry standard is either a TC Electronic Finalizer, or a Yellowtec VIP unit (quite old now). These boxes apply multi-band compression, limiting and sometimes a bit of EQ. Basically they make the DJ¹s sound great. I know R1 had Yellowtec¹s for a while, and Newsbeat definitely had a Finalizer. The biggest part of the story though is the final processing of the R1 output before transmission. This is done with an broadcast-grade audio processor. There are a few around, but the industry standard is called an Orban Optimod. Again, they essentially apply multiband compression, expansion, and frequency manipulation to make radio stations sound all loud and compressed, like, well, a radio station. Its these boxes that make it sound like the DJ is ducking the music, even if they aren¹t. Like any compressor which makes the output a near-uniform volume, more louder sounds on the input side repress the quieter sounds by the time it gets to the output. So a loud DJ talking uniformally over music, once processed will seem to sound like the music is changing volume as they start and stop talking. So, its a combination of clever mic processing pre-desk, setting this above the normalised level of the music playout system, and letting the Optimods in the transmission chain do the dirty work. Hey presto, DJ¹s sound great, no matter what they do with the desk. That¹s why Optimod¹s can cost 10k. That¹s kinda the simple answer. As you¹d expect, its even more complicated than this. But I hope that helps. Wanna know how it all works? Try this book, written by my old boss when I used to be a Broadcast Engineer... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Build-Radio-Station-Dave-Walters/dp/1847287077 And heres some other links http://www.yellowtec.com/VIP_digital.html http://www.tcelectronic.com/Finalizer96K.asp http://www.orban.com/products/radio/fm/8500/ Si. On 15/5/08 15:54, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What kit did the Beeb use, and what do they use now? (fascinated by the choices in tech) No idea about the rest of the BBC, but we do the TV Encoding with Osprey 540 cards in hp DL360G5 servers at Bush running Windows. Windows media audio encoding is also done here at Bush house using Osprey 230 cards in hp DL360G5 servers running Windows. We have our own bespoke software to control the scheduling of clip encoding at Bush (using the Windows Media and Real SDKs) and drop the content to Borg (the system that puts content on our web/clip servers) or Akamai as appropriate. Our Real encoding is done at Maidenhead by Siemens. IIRC on a load of rather old Sun Netra servers with the scheduling controlled by cron. There is another bespoke system called Bob that maintains the crontabs on the boxes. Audio gets to MH from BU via a number of Intraplex cards and E1 lines. The rest of the BBC radio encodes their Real files in pretty much the same way, although they may get the audio to MH in different ways. Since we are looking into delivering other formats beyond Real and Windows we are in the process of evaluating the easiest way to do this, so it is likely that things will be different for the World Service in a years time. Also (off-topic slightly) does anybody know what kit the radio studios use for the automatic level ducking when a DJ's speaking over the intro / tail of a track? I've seen what looks like a sidechaining compressor in the background of some shots on programmes like Timelapse or suchlike (where a DJ's being interviewed in the studio), but this assumption is largely based on the visible LED activity on the front panel of the device when the DJ's seen speaking in shot (sat next to the broadcast mic at the desk). Unfortunately though the interesting stuff (the hardware!) has always never been in focus
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Also (off-topic slightly) does anybody know what kit the radio studios use for the automatic level ducking when a DJ's speaking over the intro / tail of a track? I've seen what looks like a sidechaining compressor in the background of some shots on programmes like Timelapse or suchlike (where a DJ's being interviewed in the studio), but this assumption is largely based on the visible LED activity on the front panel of the device when the DJ's seen speaking in shot (sat next to the broadcast mic at the desk). Unfortunately though the interesting stuff (the hardware!) has always never been in focus so I've not been able to identify the kit :( If someone knows someone who knows and can ask them, that's also quite acceptable ;) I can help with that one! There's no box itself which auto-ducks the music when the dj speaks, the presenters either have their mic a little high up in the mix with their trim controls, or they 'fader wank' as its called in the business. However, I know the effect you're hearing. Part one of the story is that each mic is pre-processed before going into the desk. Not sure what R1 use now they've got fancy digital desks with dynamics compression built in, but the industry standard is either a TC Electronic Finalizer, or a Yellowtec VIP unit (quite old now). These boxes apply multi-band compression, limiting and sometimes a bit of EQ. Basically they make the DJ's sound great. I know R1 had Yellowtec's for a while, and Newsbeat definitely had a Finalizer. The biggest part of the story though is the final processing of the R1 output before transmission. This is done with an broadcast-grade audio processor. There are a few around, but the industry standard is called an Orban Optimod. Again, they essentially apply multiband compression, expansion, and frequency manipulation to make radio stations sound all loud and compressed, like, well, a radio station. Its these boxes that make it sound like the DJ is ducking the music, even if they aren't. Like any compressor which makes the output a near-uniform volume, more louder sounds on the input side repress the quieter sounds by the time it gets to the output. So a loud DJ talking uniformally over music, once processed will seem to sound like the music is changing volume as they start and stop talking. So, its a combination of clever mic processing pre-desk, setting this above the normalised level of the music playout system, and letting the Optimods in the transmission chain do the dirty work. Hey presto, DJ's sound great, no matter what they do with the desk. That's why Optimod's can cost 10k. That's kinda the simple answer. As you'd expect, its even more complicated than this. But I hope that helps. Wanna know how it all works? Try this book, written by my old boss when I used to be a Broadcast Engineer... Si, brilliant answer! I already knew about the Optimods from doing my own reading around (even dabbled with doing some software processing with SIIS and two machines I have here, only to find that I got it working all of ONE time and from then on it'd crash out every time I tried to load it up :( - good fun though). That said, you can always learn something new and your answer was quite, quite useful :) (always wondered why Newsbeat sounded slightly different from the main broadcast, obviously you have room dynamic, mic choice, etc, but the TC must make a discernable difference somewhere in the signal chain because I always heard a difference) You sound like just the right kind of person to have their brains picked about this kind of stuff - I'm finishing the third of four years on my bsc (music tech) so I always enjoy speaking to knowledgeable bods. I would be really really chuffed if somewhere down the line I ended up doing broadcast engineering, so you can see how it all ties in in my mind... Got a really keen interest in all areas of broadcast anyway but the behind the scenes stuff is what interests me most ;) Mind if I email you offlist sometime?
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Given that N24 has been pulled from Livestation, I can only imagine that the BBC's lawyers have done something here. How long does Zattoo get? Apparently it's nothing quite as sinister - N24 was streamed as part of the technical trial, which has now come to an end, and they're looking to get more channels again soon (I've been quite vocal about that on the forums ;) but it's still a shame. One day it's there, the next.. poof, gone.
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Agreed about the quality. Since the service is not officially sanctioned they are going to have to do the encoding 'off-air'. And a 3-4Mbps MPEG2 feed is not a good starting point for doing further compression from. While I don't know what the channel formally known as News 24 does with their video streams, we encode our live video for BBC Arabic directly from a 270Mbps SDI feed of the network output. -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Compston Sent: 13 May 2008 19:05 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impressed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright- .asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
2008/5/14 Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed about the quality. Since the service is not officially sanctioned they are going to have to do the encoding 'off-air'. And a 3-4Mbps MPEG2 feed is not a good starting point for doing further compression from. If it were the MPEG2 feed and was digitally processed, it would be quite simple to use the encoded frames and reduced the resolution and/or bitrate. At least in theory. It looks like a MPEG2-analogue-re-encode. While I don't know what the channel formally known as News 24 does with their video streams, we encode our live video for BBC Arabic directly from a 270Mbps SDI feed of the network output. Does that mean a BBC News HD channel would be possible? -- *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Richard Compston *Sent:* 13 May 2008 19:05 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impressed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
News have just done a technical refresh of their studios and AFAIK they have not put any HD kit in. I've no idea if any will go in before we all move into new studios in the new BHX in 2012. By BHX you mean Birmingham, right? (just doublechecking) And is everything moving for News (studios AND live broadcast coordination, all that stuff, and not just any one element of it?) Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I've been following this story very inattentively, shame on me. (One of the reasons I'm so interested is because it could also work out nicely in my favour given my planned career path after I've graduated next year). Is there anywhere where I can find a decent amount of info about any planned move? (aside from the stuff rumbling around on DS forums)
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Woods News have just done a technical refresh of their studios and AFAIK they have not put any HD kit in. I've no idea if any will go in before we all move into new studios in the new BHX in 2012. By BHX you mean Birmingham, right? (just doublechecking) The BBC loves a good TLA ;) BH is Broadcasting House, and thus BHX is Broadcasting House Extension. There was once a BHXX - I kid you not - which was the Extension to the Broadcasting House Extension. Thankfully this crime against jargon has now been demolished!
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
2008/5/14 Christopher Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: News have just done a technical refresh of their studios and AFAIK they have not put any HD kit in. I've no idea if any will go in before we all move into new studios in the new BHX in 2012. By BHX you mean Birmingham, right? (just doublechecking) BHX=Broadcasting House, ie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcasting_House And is *everything* moving for News (studios AND live broadcast coordination, all that stuff, and not just any one element of it?) Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I've been following this story very inattentively, shame on me. (One of the reasons I'm so interested is because it could also work out nicely in my favour given my planned career path after I've graduated next year). Is there anywhere where I can find a decent amount of info about any planned move? (aside from the stuff rumbling around on DS forums) -- Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
2008/5/14 Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Brian Butterworth wrote: Does that mean a BBC News HD channel would be possible? Why would it be? SDI is the usual way we send SD digital audio and video round the studios. The bitrate may be high, but it is still interlaced SD resolution video. I can't remember the various different bandwidth figures for HD SDI, and I can't be bothered digging through my training notes from Wood Norton now - But I think they are measured in Gbps. News have just done a technical refresh of their studios and AFAIK they have not put any HD kit in. I've no idea if any will go in before we all move into new studios in the new BHX in 2012. Shame, just having a HD Astons would mean a second HD channel for Freesat. Until Film4 HD anyway... -- *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH ( 02 71285 (internal) ( +44 (0)20 7557 1285 (external) : [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Gareth Davis wrote: Why would it be? SDI is the usual way we send SD digital audio and video round the studios. The bitrate may be high, but it is still interlaced SD resolution video. I can't remember the various different bandwidth figures for HD SDI, and I can't be bothered digging through my training notes from Wood Norton now - But I think they are measured in Gbps. Most HD-SDI (ie. 1080i50 or 720p50) is up to a nominal 1.5Gbps. Anything higher resolution (eg. 1080p50) needs cables capable of 3Gbps or dual-link existing cables. Note the rather nifty Dirac Pro solutions to avoiding having to upgrade cables - able to compress 1.5Gbps into 270Mbps to run over SD links with fairly low quality loss, and to compress 1080p or 1200p (up to 3Gbps) to run over a single 1.5Gbps link losslessly. Great work, Tim Co! -jeremy - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Christopher Woods wrote: By BHX you mean Birmingham, right? (just doublechecking) And is everything moving for News (studios AND live broadcast coordination, all that stuff, and not just any one element of it?) Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I've been following this story very inattentively, shame on me. (One of the reasons I'm so interested is because it could also work out nicely in my favour given my planned career path after I've graduated next year). Is there anywhere where I can find a decent amount of info about any planned move? (aside from the stuff rumbling around on DS forums) As others have already said BHX is the extension to London Broadcasting House, apologies for the lapse into BBC TLAs. No idea what the site code is for the Mailbox, if any does know then feel free to email me it - because I can't find a list on Gateway :) If you are interested in the construction of the new Broadcasting House, the new home for BBC News and the World Service then there is a public facing site here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/broadcastinghouse/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/broadcastinghouse/ -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division * http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ * 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Most people just call it Egton... On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christopher Woods wrote: By BHX you mean Birmingham, right? (just doublechecking) And is everything moving for News (studios AND live broadcast coordination, all that stuff, and not just any one element of it?) Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I've been following this story very inattentively, shame on me. (One of the reasons I'm so interested is because it could also work out nicely in my favour given my planned career path after I've graduated next year). Is there anywhere where I can find a decent amount of info about any planned move? (aside from the stuff rumbling around on DS forums) As others have already said BHX is the extension to London Broadcasting House, apologies for the lapse into BBC TLAs. No idea what the site code is for the Mailbox, if any does know then feel free to email me it - because I can't find a list on Gateway :) If you are interested in the construction of the new Broadcasting House, the new home for BBC News and the World Service then there is a public facing site here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/broadcastinghouse/ -- Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Good point Gareth 'News 24' is streamed from a SDI source. We moved from analogue to digital capture cards about four/five years ago the difference in quality was immediately noticable - bitrate frame size for Flash has been upped of course, so looks even better (the current encoders are a tad old I think the cards are a bit past the sell by date: the windows real streams we've moved across to the new boxes already look better). But I still think the quality is rather poor for what they're doing - Siemens stream some stuff from digi-boxes without looking that soft. I don't know if Zattoo are using Freeview or Sky boxes, but I'm guessing Freeview - the blocking I've been seeing is very similar to what I get on my telly when a 747 flies overhead ;) On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Gareth Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agreed about the quality. Since the service is not officially sanctioned they are going to have to do the encoding 'off-air'. And a 3-4Mbps MPEG2 feed is not a good starting point for doing further compression from. While I don't know what the channel formally known as News 24 does with their video streams, we encode our live video for BBC Arabic directly from a 270Mbps SDI feed of the network output. -- *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global News Division 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Richard Compston *Sent:* 13 May 2008 19:05 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impressed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impressed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
I agree, the picture on Livestation is much better too. 2008/5/13 Richard Compston [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impressed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
RE: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
Now, if only Livestation was still streaming N24. ;) Or any of the main terestrial channels, for that matter! Zattoo's exciting because it finally offers a way for those without TV sets to get most of the terrestrial UK lineup - I did a side-by-side comparison of the F1 on Sunday (left window: USB Freeview receiver, right window: Zattoo) and while the difference was noticeable, Freeview won... but not by much. The main problems Zatto's having at the moment is they're rebroadcasting using capture equipment without any really decent original source to cap from - so you get scanlines or other artifacts lowering the quality. I'll definitely keep tabs on it - I think it's as legal as any other method of watching UK TV channels. If you pay your licence fee, why shouldn't you be able to get your telly over the web? Makes a lot of sense to me. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 13 May 2008 19:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels I agree, the picture on Livestation is much better too. 2008/5/13 Richard Compston [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impres sed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright-.asp #s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can see how retransmission is a good thing but only through the right channels - i.e. if I were to provide content to the BBC or ITV, I would like it to be transmitted professionally and with a good level of quality. Any views on this? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels
2008/5/14 Christopher Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now, if only Livestation was still streaming N24. ;) Is it not? I'm in Belgium so I get BBC World News instead of News Not 24.Funny that Livestation would remove it but Zattoo are using it. Or any of the main terestrial channels, for that matter! Zattoo's exciting because it finally offers a way for those without TV sets to get most of the terrestrial UK lineup - I did a side-by-side comparison of the F1 on Sunday (left window: USB Freeview receiver, right window: Zattoo) and while the difference was noticeable, Freeview won... but not by much. The main problems Zatto's having at the moment is they're rebroadcasting using capture equipment without any really decent original source to cap from - so you get scanlines or other artifacts lowering the quality. They do seem to have missed the 'quality' angle. Can't be that hard to get channel names right (BBC News not 24), and logos (BBC ONE one is very old indeed). I'll definitely keep tabs on it - I think it's as legal as any other method of watching UK TV channels. If you pay your licence fee, why shouldn't you be able to get your telly over the web? Makes a lot of sense to me. TBH, I am a bit cross about this... I've been asking the BBC if this sort of service would be legal for quite some years and I've been given the Amy Winehouse answer everytime. Given that N24 has been pulled from Livestation, I can only imagine that the BBC's lawyers have done something here. How long does Zattoo get? -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 13 May 2008 19:57 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels I agree, the picture on Livestation is much better too. 2008/5/13 Richard Compston [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Moving away from the legal wrangles for a moment, I must say I'm not too impres sed with the quality of their streams... Looking at my PC's network usage zattoo is using three times as much bandwith (admittedly some will be upstream) than the FLV stream of News 24 (sorry, News Channel) we're running tests on currently (beta stream coming to news.bbc.co.uk soonish), but actually looks worse - lots of blocking buffering. My PC is rather old, but the connection's not too bad - getting around 5Mbps currently. Rich. On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relevant part of the Copyrights and Patents Act 1988 (as Amended) is here: http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-(statutes)(1)/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73http://www.jenkins.eu/copyright-%28statutes%29%281%29/part-1-copyright-.asp#s73 It all boils down to the definition of 'cable' and 're-transmission by cable'. Interestingly the Act does not say 're-broadcast' by cable, it doesn't say it has to be in a partciular format (DVB-S or analogue PAL, for example) and does not state that it has to be a 'broadcast' (many to one) just a 're-tranmission'. It also says that 'ee-transmission by cable include the transmission of microwave energy between terrestrial fixed points' which seems to cover wireless internet in my book... 2008/5/13 Robin Cramp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From a user perspective viewing content in this way is great, it provides another source of viewing; more importantly online. I would think from a broadcaster perspective there is a sense of split view on the subject. Broadcasting the stations as is gives them an extra level of exposure, not to mention the advertisers too. Although from a content owner perspective there is the age old issues about copyright. I personally think that it will be the rights owners that will have the biggest say in whether Zattoo should continue in their current model, rather than the broadcasters pushing for change. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Barber [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 May 2008 14:35 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] Zattoo - live streaming BBC channels On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Brian Butterworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://zattoo.com/ http://informitv.com/articles/2008/05/09/zattooclaimscopyright/ Zattoo, which is now offering live online streams of the leading British terrestrial television channels, is claiming it has the right to do so under the United Kingdom Copyright Act. Zattoo says it operates strictly legitimately on the basis of agreements with broadcasters and the copyright law but the British broadcasters say they have no agreements with the streaming startup company. The law seems ambiguous at best. Interesting stuff. I can
