Re: [DNG] Gnome and KDE: Was: a how to question (project(s) related)
Le 18/08/2021 à 12:22, al3xu5 a écrit : > Tue, 17 Aug 2021 17:46:01 -0400 - Steve Litt : > >> Antony Stone said on Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:38:05 +0200 >> >> >>> "I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because >>> I use a Mac." >>> - Jason Isitt >> I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because I >> use OpenBox on Linux. > > I think both KDE and Gnome, and also all the Mac stuff, suck -- I'm > quite unbiased in that, because I use OpenBox (+LXDE) on Linux. > I've used Gnome and KDE many years ago, before they started to suck. I had recently the opportunity to use Mac and Windows and they both suck. Here is an example: I have a USB memory key on which are several directories with photos, personal videos (from my Gopro Hero-2) plus some movies. Amongst the directories, there is one named DCIM because I have used it in the camera. Fatal error! When I plug the USB key on my laptop, I can open it with hopman and look at any of the contents with thunar or xfce4-ternimal. When I plug it on a TV receiver, I can navigate the directory structure, by first choosing if I want to see photos or videos. When I plug it on a Mac, it looks for a (photo or video) application to open it, doesn't find one and never tries to just show it in a file manager. When I plugged it into the Windows machine of a friend 1 month ago, we tried half an hour to open it in the file manager (or however they call that on Windows), without success. We gave up. After that I discovered that Windows had created a lot of junk files on the USB key. I consider Mac sucks as much as Windows; I dislike Mac's desktop, maybe by lack of habit, and I hate the way they prevent the user to make simple things. For example it is impossible to open an SVG file by clicking on it. You must first launch the web browser! Mac was once (in 1981) the inventor of the idea of associating a file type to an application. Very well, but with any Linux file manager you can open a file not only with a default application but with any one of your choice. And there is a default application out of the box for SVG files. When I see the life of a friend of me with her Macs, I just see her as a prisonner. She keeps an old desktop Mac, because she has on it an old version of Photoshop which is enough for her. She does nothing else with this machine. She has a newer one with which she does other things. She never uses them to browse the web or send mails but relies for that on her Android smartphone which continuously harasses her with commercial "allerts". I do all that (except the "allerts") with my single laptop running Devuan and Xfce4. I dunno when a Mac becomes old (meaning not maintained by Apple). 3, 4 years? After that any hardware or software becomes incompatible. It may be fine to have a Mac when it is renewed by your employer every 3 years. Nice because it is beautiful and shining, and, most of all, expensive. But, even when it is new, it *sucks*. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome and KDE: Was: a how to question (project(s) related)
Tue, 17 Aug 2021 17:46:01 -0400 - Steve Litt : > Antony Stone said on Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:38:05 +0200 > > > >"I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because > >I use a Mac." > > - Jason Isitt > > I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because I > use OpenBox on Linux. I think both KDE and Gnome, and also all the Mac stuff, suck -- I'm quite unbiased in that, because I use OpenBox (+LXDE) on Linux. Regards al3xu5 Disclaimer -- It's just a bit of irony... No offense... ;-) -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgpD60xXTGwsv.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gnome and KDE: Was: a how to question (project(s) related)
Antony Stone said on Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:38:05 +0200 >"I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because >I use a Mac." > - Jason Isitt I think both KDE and Gnome suck - I'm quite unbiased in that, because I use OpenBox on Linux. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status
Olaf Meeuwissen said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 19:59:26 +0900 >Hi Steve, > >Steve Litt writes: > >> Mate via Dng said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:23:29 +0300 >> >> >>>My own preference is 3rd Gnome. >> >> What would Gnome give you that you can't get from other Window >> Managers and Desktop Environments (WM/DE)? > >A familiar work environment, perhaps? That's always nice, but for a person not wanting systemd, in the long run Gnome is a dead end. I was wondering about specific features and elements of workflow. > >I ditched GNOME a long while ago myself and did the same with KDE but >somehow can't get myself to ditch Xfce and get back to a hand-rolled >.xinitrc like I used to use a couple of decades ago ... go figure. There's a lot less reason to ditch xfce: It still (AFAIK) works well with sysvinit and runit and s6 and openrc, without doing anything special. > >It's all really a matter of inertia. I'm a big fan of inertia. Life's too short to change your workflow every month. But when you see a dead end coming down the road, or when the status quo is getting too difficult, sometimes its best to make your move earlier rather than later. >Or muscle memory. I'm a big fan of muscle memory. I use Vim. Nuff said? But sometimes there are compelling reasons to move to other software and relearn your muscle memory. Heck, if I never changed muscle memory, I'd still be using Wordstar :-) > >Going off-topic > >> By the way, are you a touch typist who can type over 35 wpm? > >In what language? And what educational level of prose? > >I am a touch typist, certified, mind you, and hit somewhere between 135 >and 140 cpm (including spaces and punctuation but no funny accents) on >a mechanical typewriter way back in secondary school at the exam. In >my native language, that works out to about 17 or 18 words for a normal >newspaper article. In English, I thinks it's more like 20. In German >it'd be even less, probably around 15. In Japanese ... who knows. What I was getting at is that the 35 wpm typist, assuming a word is 5 characters and 1 space, is probably better off using a user interface like I have (simple window manager + dmenu + UMENU2, or XFCE + dmenu but no UMENU2) rather than a more mousy UI. At 20 WPM, I could make a case for your using a UI like mine, or make a case for your using a mouse driven one. My understanding is that Gnome3 has some great workflow features for the mouse-centric user, but other WM/DEs (Window Manager or Desktop Environments) are also very performant for the mouse centric. > ># And let's not add predictive input methods to the mix ;-) ># Me very much dislikes those. If you mean these things that guess the word you mean and finish it for you, yeah, those are horrible. Anyway, the bottom line is that Gnome is nice and all that, but it's not the end of the world if you don't use it, and the way things are going, sooner or later you won't be able to use it, and perhaps it's better to change your muscle memory at your leisure than to unexpectedly be forced to do it after an upgrade. Also, for anyone typing 35 WPM or more, life is more productive when you use the keyboard more and the mouse less, and that can be accomplished by adding dmenu, and possibly UMENU2, to any WM/DE. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status
Hi Steve, Steve Litt writes: > Mate via Dng said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:23:29 +0300 > > >>My own preference is 3rd Gnome. > > What would Gnome give you that you can't get from other Window Managers > and Desktop Environments (WM/DE)? A familiar work environment, perhaps? I ditched GNOME a long while ago myself and did the same with KDE but somehow can't get myself to ditch Xfce and get back to a hand-rolled .xinitrc like I used to use a couple of decades ago ... go figure. It's all really a matter of inertia. Or muscle memory. Going off-topic > By the way, are you a touch typist who can type over 35 wpm? In what language? And what educational level of prose? I am a touch typist, certified, mind you, and hit somewhere between 135 and 140 cpm (including spaces and punctuation but no funny accents) on a mechanical typewriter way back in secondary school at the exam. In my native language, that works out to about 17 or 18 words for a normal newspaper article. In English, I thinks it's more like 20. In German it'd be even less, probably around 15. In Japanese ... who knows. # And let's not add predictive input methods to the mix ;-) # Me very much dislikes those. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status
Mate via Dng said on Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:23:29 +0300 >My own preference is 3rd Gnome. What would Gnome give you that you can't get from other Window Managers and Desktop Environments (WM/DE)? By the way, are you a touch typist who can type over 35 wpm? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome 3 Status
Hi Mate, On ven, 09 avr 2021, Mate via Dng wrote: > My own preference is 3rd Gnome. I can't see it in the official > supported desktop environments list for the Beowulf release, but my > testing in virtual machine shows that it works. > > Could you please advise me if it's stable enough to use it on a daily > basis? > To disperse a misconception that you may have, devuan is solely debian but without systemd. As such, any software not on the list of [banned package][0] should work as is. AFAIK the issue with Gnome is that it relies heavily on systemd components. Thus the choice to not propose it by default. However it should work just work by using elogind instead of consolekit. Bests, Ludovic [0]: http://deb.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gnome 3 Status
Hello Everyone! Somehow all this systemd buzz flew behind me, so it's a pity that I discovered all drawbacks that it has recently. Which lead me to understand that it's not an init system that I want. It's nice to see that here, a lot of people are doing the right thing, from my point of view. My own preference is 3rd Gnome. I can't see it in the official supported desktop environments list for the Beowulf release, but my testing in virtual machine shows that it works. Could you please advise me if it's stable enough to use it on a daily basis? Thank you. -- Best Regards, Mate ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On 29/09/17 09:01, Bardot Jérôme wrote: > Le 28/09/2017 à 13:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : >> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:40:54 +0200, Bardot wrote in message >> : >> >>> Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit : Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream." >>> If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it. >> ..could easily be politics: "Systemd und ordning muss sein!" >> Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to accept the olden ways. >>> There is a few number of young developper aware of this. >>> Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and >>> take time for not remunerate work on free software. >> ..true, especially when "upstream hates you", or when >> everyone believes "it's not worth the while nor effort." >> > I know several sys admin whom migrate to devuan the last past weeks > because their prod server bug cause of systemd. > > I show several messages from twitter like "f%ck you systemd" the last is > because restart won't work because of dbus. > > I hope a day debian people woke up. > > The last step for me before migrate is devuan catch up last debian testing. > > Do you or something else know if some companies need dev work on free > software ? > > Because i will be available soon. > > How many people currently work on devuan ? > that depends very much on what you mean by "work on" It could range from a handful of active devs doing packaging to hundreds of contributors... -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Le 28/09/2017 à 13:41, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : > On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:40:54 +0200, Bardot wrote in message > : > >> Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit : >>> Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome >>> here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in >>> their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will >>> send upstream." >> If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it. > ..could easily be politics: "Systemd und ordning muss sein!" > >>> Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing >>> strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to >>> use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to >>> state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid >>> the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to >>> accept the olden ways. >> There is a few number of young developper aware of this. >> Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and >> take time for not remunerate work on free software. > ..true, especially when "upstream hates you", or when > everyone believes "it's not worth the while nor effort." > I know several sys admin whom migrate to devuan the last past weeks because their prod server bug cause of systemd. I show several messages from twitter like "f%ck you systemd" the last is because restart won't work because of dbus. I hope a day debian people woke up. The last step for me before migrate is devuan catch up last debian testing. Do you or something else know if some companies need dev work on free software ? Because i will be available soon. How many people currently work on devuan ? 0x03878A98.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:40:54 +0200, Bardot wrote in message : > Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit : > > Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome > > here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in > > their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will > > send upstream." > If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it. ..could easily be politics: "Systemd und ordning muss sein!" > > Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing > > strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to > > use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to > > state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid > > the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to > > accept the olden ways. > > There is a few number of young developper aware of this. > Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and > take time for not remunerate work on free software. ..true, especially when "upstream hates you", or when everyone believes "it's not worth the while nor effort." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Le 27/09/2017 à 18:24, Edward Bartolo a écrit : > Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome > here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in > their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send > upstream." If the work is done i don't know why they not accept it. > Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing > strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to > use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to > state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid > the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to accept > the olden ways. There is a few number of young developper aware of this. Me for example. But it's not easy to create a company and take time for not remunerate work on free software. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng J. 0x03878A98.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gnome?
Quote: "Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream." Pushing systemd down Gnome users' throats is part of their marketing strategy. How are you going to convince the Gnome developers not to use anything to that helps them attain their goals? Is it enough to state the already stated about systemd and its adoption? I am afraid the developers are too enthusiastic about systemd's new ways to accept the olden ways. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 10:21:05 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > El 27/09/17 a les 08:12, John Morris ha escrit: > > On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 03:42 -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > >> Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE? > > > > Why not? It mostly works out of the box, I'm using it now. If you > > install it onto a laptop you won't have working power management > > because of dependencies on systemd. Google can give you the > > details but you need to locally rebuild mate-applets, > > mate-power-manager and mate-session-manager, some with no changes > > some with one liners. Slept since I did it and can't remember > > details at the moment. :) Once you fix those three pakages, no > > problems. > The subject for this thread is Gnome (v3), that is a different desktop > than Mate (v1). > Please, don't forget the initial petition for this thread (and for any > list's thread) that has no relation on choosing a Desktop Environment. Exactly. The OP (Original Poster) prioritized having Gnome3 over everything else, so I'm sure he'll be quite happy remaining in systemd land. John --- the list suggested Mate and several other wonderful WMDEs to the OP, but he demanded his Gnome3, which is unlikely to ever appear in Devuan because the chance of finding someone having both a love of Gnome3 and the tech chops to depoetterize it is slim. Which means this thread has outlived its usefulness. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
The subject for this thread is Gnome (v3), that is a different desktop than Mate (v1). Please, don't forget the initial petition for this thread (and for any list's thread) that has no relation on choosing a Desktop Environment. El 27/09/17 a les 08:12, John Morris ha escrit: > On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 03:42 -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote: >> Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE? > > Why not? It mostly works out of the box, I'm using it now. If you > install it onto a laptop you won't have working power management because > of dependencies on systemd. Google can give you the details but you > need to locally rebuild mate-applets, mate-power-manager and > mate-session-manager, some with no changes some with one liners. Slept > since I did it and can't remember details at the moment. :) Once you > fix those three pakages, no problems. > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 03:42 -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE? Why not? It mostly works out of the box, I'm using it now. If you install it onto a laptop you won't have working power management because of dependencies on systemd. Google can give you the details but you need to locally rebuild mate-applets, mate-power-manager and mate-session-manager, some with no changes some with one liners. Slept since I did it and can't remember details at the moment. :) Once you fix those three pakages, no problems. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
> On Sep 26, 2017, at 3:42 AM, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > > Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE? If you really want Gnome 3 Shell, then you want to run Fedora. Any other (major) distro might run G3S, but it will have odd quirks. Ubuntu, for example, is really a Unity distro, and the package configs and dependencies will tend towards the Unity configuration. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:04:24 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > Current Mate is pretty different than current Gnome. > It's like somebody asking for Windows GUI and responding with Windows > 3.11-like GUI. > > Windows 3.11-like would be 'Windows for workgroups' and Mate is nothing like 'Windows for workgroups' It is more like XP or Win7 Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Current Mate is pretty different than current Gnome. It's like somebody asking for Windows GUI and responding with Windows 3.11-like GUI. El 26/09/17 a les 09:42, taii...@gmx.com ha escrit: > Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE? > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Why not use the gnome 2 fork MATE? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
help the guy who started GNOME.ORG "earn a job at Microsoft", Some people consider that a reward. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:57:37 +0200, Didier wrote in message <848f652f-8b44-800f-88c1-da35cb086...@in2p3.fr>: > Le 20/09/2017 à 20:07, Steve Litt a écrit : > > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 > > John Franklin wrote: > > > > > >> That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have > >> gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would > >> attract more users to Devuan. > > Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows > > enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't > > understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would > > take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome > > will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? > > > > You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of > > resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. > > > In other words, should Devuan try to seduce those people who > just look for a gratuitous Windows? This is typically what Gnome is > doing. ..it more like they have (successfully) seduced developers into wasting their time on less than worthwhile code to help the guy who started GNOME.ORG "earn a job at Microsoft", _somehow_. .."yes, Qt licensing sucked, yes, sysv is old and sucks, but you say the fix is Gnome and systemd???" ;oD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Le 20/09/2017 à 20:07, Steve Litt a écrit : On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 John Franklin wrote: That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would attract more users to Devuan. Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. In other words, should Devuan try to seduce those people who just look for a gratuitous Windows? This is typically what Gnome is doing. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 14:22, John Franklin wrote: On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 John Franklin wrote: That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would attract more users to Devuan. Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream. We have to be able to show tangible demand for a systemd-free Gnome shell, and the easiest way is popcon. Of course, I’d like to think some of those users would, in fact, know the difference between Gnome and XFCE, prefer Gnome (for whatever reason), and have the technical skills to help keep it patched. jf If you (or someone else) puts a team together to do the work - yeah, I'm pretty sure it will take a team to sort through all that gnome has to 'offer - it would probably find it's way into Devuan. Since there aren't even enough devs to get ascii out the door, I doubt you'll find anyone wanting to scratch that itch in this camp. FYI, we not only have systemd refugees here, we have plenty of gnome refugees too. The closest Devuan comes to gnome is a version of cinnamon maintained by antofox at https://git.devuan.org/AntoFox/Cinnamon golinux (who parted ways with gnome2 when gnome3 arrived) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 > John Franklin wrote: > > >> That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have >> gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would >> attract more users to Devuan. > > Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows > enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't > understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would > take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will > doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? > > You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of > resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream. We have to be able to show tangible demand for a systemd-free Gnome shell, and the easiest way is popcon. Of course, I’d like to think some of those users would, in fact, know the difference between Gnome and XFCE, prefer Gnome (for whatever reason), and have the technical skills to help keep it patched. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 John Franklin wrote: > That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have > gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would > attract more users to Devuan. Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:06 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 19/09/2017 à 15:00, Narcis Garcia a écrit : >> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for >> unexperienced and normal people. > >Are you kidding? I consider myself an experienced user and cannot make > sense of either Gnome or KDE in their "modern" incarnations. You’re not alone, and this is why Linux Mint Cinnamon has become such a popular DE. That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would attract more users to Devuan. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On 09/18/2017 03:02 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > While as others have said Gnome is an intertwined mess with systemd, there has been a continuing effort by dantrell to keep it mostly usable without systemd in Gentoo. https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd Following the same path might be possible in Devuan, but I see it as a continual battle as it appears that Gnome swallows more and more of the "good ideas" of systemd at each turn. I really can't see much demand for Gnome in Devuan based on the response here, but I think that is understandable given that Gnome was the shoehorn that was used to fill almost everybody's Linux boots with the systemd excrement. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:38:28AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:35:42 +0200 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting... > > I know, been refering to it for ages as a pox... It's funnier in Polish where colloquial words for STDs carry some additional implications. Not sure what's the equivalent in English or Paraguaian[1]. Meow! [1]. I don't mean uncertainty wrt which of the two Iberian languages you use (which I never manage to remember), but that pre-Internet swearwords tend to be local. Like, the language in Quebec uses church utensils... -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:35:42 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting... I know, been refering to it for ages as a pox... Cheers, Ron. -- Withholding information is the essence of tyranny. Control of the flow of information is the tool of the dictatorship. -- Bruce Coville -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:00:06AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:50:55 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. > > Which is like wanting unprotected sex, but without sexually transmitted > diseases... So you need some extra work: you need to have tested all partners you don't immediately trust. More effort, and you need to be careful or you'll miss something, but still doable. It's recommended to have sex with partners who are already known to be STD-free. (And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting...) Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:50:55 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. Which is like wanting unprotected sex, but without sexually transmitted diseases... Cheers, Ron. -- Sodd's Second Law: Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is bound to occur. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:50:55PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 20/09/17 a les 12:43, J. Fahrner ha escrit: > > Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia: > > > >> I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when > >> necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at > >> all, this means I need some other way to work on this. > > > > IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using > > Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case? > > > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. Then you have to go and complain with the GNOME guys, who unfortunately are doing all they can to make you unhappy (and without a good reason, IMHO)... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 20/09/17 a les 12:43, J. Fahrner ha escrit: > Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia: > >> I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when >> necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at >> all, this means I need some other way to work on this. > > IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using > Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case? > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia: I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at all, this means I need some other way to work on this. IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case? Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Could Devuan project itself open a bug in bugzilla.gnome.org about issues without Systemd? El 18/09/17 a les 09:02, Narcis Garcia ha escrit: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 20/09/17 a les 11:48, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > >> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? >> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > > There are in the Devuan repo 557 packages related to Gnome, 303 of which have > Gnome in their name. > > So go ahead, install Gnome, and go in peace... > I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at all, this means I need some other way to work on this. Anyway, I'll give it a try. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. There are in the Devuan repo 557 packages related to Gnome, 303 of which have Gnome in their name. So go ahead, install Gnome, and go in peace... Cheers, Ron. -- In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -- Thich Nhat Hanh -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 16:04 +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 15:22 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. > > I run mate in Devuan Ascii. BBL when I started up that image again. I just checked. Mate on Devuan/Ascii runs fine :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Le 19/09/2017 à 15:00, Narcis Garcia a écrit : 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for unexperienced and normal people. Are you kidding? I consider myself an experienced user and cannot make sense of either Gnome or KDE in their "modern" incarnations. XFCE is what ressembles most the old Gnome; it is similar to Gnome 2, but even simpler since all applications can be found in one single menu tree. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: > > Why in the world would you need Gnome? > > 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for > unexperienced and normal people. > > 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users > that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), > use Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was. > > 3. Why not? The following points concern Gnome3. I had nothing against Gnome2, but it's not available anymore. a) Gnome is a pig: A serious resource consumer. b) Gnome is tightly meshed with systemd. Even if somebody out there has published a secret incantation to get it to work without systemd, that incantation is unlikely to stay functional very long. In fact, Redhat and Poettering have a demonstrated motive for Gnome not to work without systemd. c) Gnome may (or may not) be "intuitive" to illogically thinking people, but with its "let me guess what you want and present it to you" way of working, it consistently gets in the way of logical people. And more people are logical than not. Give them a well thought out, static hierchical menu system, and they'll know what to do. d) Gnome is a mesh of promiscuously communicating parts, with all the feedback loops you'd expect, such that if one part malfunctions, various hard to diagnose problems will appear in other parts. e) Some of your hundreds of users will tweak their Gnome in various ways, leading to maintenance headaches. Of course, this is true of other WMDEs, but it's easier to do with Gnome, and with its manifold higher number of knobs and levers, harder to put it back into functionality. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:56:13 +0200 "J. Fahrner" wrote: > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they > try to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to > offer a Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for > Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have > to live with systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you > have to use Windows. But don't cry. Couldn't have said it better myself. We all have priorities, and some priority sets aren't conducive to Devuan. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. Stick with Debian, become an expert on systemctl and journalctl, and don't come crying to me. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:19:02 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: > Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory, >> I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to >> Gnome. XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior? I think Unity would provide the most Gnome like experience (assuming you mean Gnome3). Xfce enables you to have multiple panels, which I think you can use to simulate the panels and drawers in Gnome2. Am I reading correctly here that you're prioritizing your selection on the *theme*? How much stability and intuitiveness are you willing to sacrifice for theme? Xfce is OK, but from my perspective it's slowly sidling up to systemd, and may one day be unuseable without systemd. That said, Xfce is currently a good candidate assuming your computer has the horsepower to run it, and if your computer could run Gnome3, it certainly can run Xfce. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:49:31 +0200, Narcis wrote in message <2d75dd54-26ec-7d5a-e5c4-23506cbf7...@actiu.net>: > El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit: > > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 > > Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > >> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > >> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate > >> was for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. > > > > What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ? > > > > Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support. > Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same > usage and behavior of machines. ..are you able to "upgrade" your users to TDE, KDE, LXDE, LXQt, MATE or Cinnamon using a Wintendo-style theme to keep your users happy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Desktop_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXDE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXQt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_(software) ..I don't know these much, TDE is a fork off KDE-3.5 which was great, also had Wintendo-style themes to keep users and bean counters happy. ..compared to KDE-3.5 (and I guess TDE), KDE-4.x and Plasma sucks, but has become endurable with 8GB ram. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 03:00:22PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: > > 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users > that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use > Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was. Wait for gnome 3->4. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 at 16:49:31 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit: >> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 >> Narcis Garcia wrote: >> >>> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. >>> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was >>> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. >> >> What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ? >> > > Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support. > Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same > usage and behavior of machines. I'd like to know how those people reacted during the Gnome2 -> Gnome3 transition. Regards, Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 19/09/17 a les 16:16, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit: > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > >> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. >> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was >> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. > > What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ? > Today, mainly the well-known design to users I support. Most of computer users don't like computing; everyday they expect same usage and behavior of machines. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 19/09/17 a les 15:56, J. Fahrner ha escrit: > Am 2017-09-19 15:00, schrieb Narcis Garcia: >> El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: >>> Why in the world would you need Gnome? >> >> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for >> unexperienced and normal people. >> >> 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users >> that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use >> Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was. >> >> 3. Why not? > > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try > to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a > Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for Gnome, because > Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with > systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you have to use > Windows. But don't cry. > My first strategy on Windows to GNU migrations was to use a WindowsXP-like theme for Gnome. All users were happy with this, unlike I left Gnome 2 as it was. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 19/09/17 a les 15:30, Rick Moen ha escrit: > Quoting Narcis Garcia (informat...@actiu.net): > >> I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. >> But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was >> for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. > > Or you could give Xfce a try. It's rather nice. > > But whatever's your cuppa. > I have no problem with other desktop softwares if them can be configured/themed to seem Gnome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tuesday 19 September 2017 at 15:16:58, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. > > What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ? In this situation I'd guess the answer is familiarity. Antony. -- Archaeologists have found a previously-unknown dinosaur which seems to have had a very large vocabulary. They've named it Thesaurus. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 13:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 > > Why in the world would you need Gnome? I don't think we should blindly reject providing Gnome in Devuan. As I wrote, shwsh has already provided the two needed packages: elogind and gnome-settings- daemon. As you might know GuixSD is running Gnome, and they use elogind (ported by a Guix developer from systemd). Ability to choose desktops is good for versatility in addition to init system choices. Even if I don't run Gnome somebody else might want to. And if we can provide it why not. This is a situation very similar to eudev (fork of udev from systemd). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:22:14 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. What does Gnome offer, that XFCE lacks ? Cheers, Ron. -- Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses. -- H. L. Mencken -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 14:51 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > I've tried shwsh's procedure and it doesn't work in the first step. > Scenario was: Devuan 8 fresh install with all defaults, and only removed > default desktop with: > $ sudo tasksel remove desktop xfce-desktop > $ sudo reboot You have to be careful which version you use to try out gnome. It seems like shwsh use ceres and ascii, combined with Debian strech. Definitely not jessie! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 15:22 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. I run mate in Devuan Ascii. BBL when I started up that image again. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Am 2017-09-19 15:00, schrieb Narcis Garcia: El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: Why in the world would you need Gnome? 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for unexperienced and normal people. 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was. 3. Why not? I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a Linux system without systemd. And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. If you want a Windows GUI you have to use Windows. But don't cry. Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Quoting Narcis Garcia (informat...@actiu.net): > I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. > But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was > for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. Or you could give Xfce a try. It's rather nice. But whatever's your cuppa. -- Rick Moen "The numbers one through ten should be spelled out, r...@linuxmafia.comwhile numbers greater than ten are products of the McQ! (4x80) Illuminati and should be avoided." -- @FakeAPStylebook ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
I understand perfectly current situation with Gnome and Systemd. But if I cannot offer Gnome 3 to desktop users (or a fork as Mate was for Gnome 2), Devuan is not an option for me in this area. Servers are an independent chapter. El 19/09/17 a les 15:14, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit: > On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > >> 3. Why not? > > Because all recent versions of Gnome are infected with the systemd pox. > > Cheers, > > Ron. > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 03:00:22PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: > > Why in the world would you need Gnome? > > 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for > unexperienced and normal people. > > 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users > that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use > Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was. > > 3. Why not? ...and foremost, why should one provide excuses for their choices on Desktop Environments at all? :) I have not used GNOME since its version 1.x (with x very small, I guess), and still think that it would be better for a universal distribution like Devuan to provide a way to install GNOME, if at all possible (i.e., if it does not require systemd). I am lacking the basic skills and interest to work on that, but still. :) KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 15:00:22 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > 3. Why not? Because all recent versions of Gnome are infected with the systemd pox. Cheers, Ron. -- A society that puts equality over freedom will not get any of those things. A society that puts freedom above equality will get a high degree of both." -- Milton Friedman -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: > Why in the world would you need Gnome? 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for unexperienced and normal people. 2. I select desktop software for hundreds of users, and 99% of users that already use desktop computers installed by me (hundreds more), use Gnome. I don't want to face another change like Gnome 2->3 was. 3. Why not? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
I've tried shwsh's procedure and it doesn't work in the first step. apt loops in a large messages list, all saying: ... Note, selecting 'python2.7-taurus' for regex '.' Note, selecting 'r-cran-kernsmooth' for regex '.' Note, selecting 'slsh' for regex '.' ... Neither with dpkg: $ sudo dkg -i elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb ... dpkg: error processing archive elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb (--install): trying to overwrite '/lib/udev/rules.d/70-power-switch.rules', which is also in package udev 215-17+deb8u7 dpkg: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe) Errors were encountered while processing: elogind_234-2.2_amd64.deb Scenario was: Devuan 8 fresh install with all defaults, and only removed default desktop with: $ sudo tasksel remove desktop xfce-desktop $ sudo reboot El 18/09/17 a les 12:28, Svante Signell ha escrit: > On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 09:02 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: >> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? >> >> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > > On IRC September 6 somebody (shwsh) reported gnome running on Devuan. He > packaged elogind gnome-settings-deamon. For more info see > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1581 > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Tue, 2017-09-19 at 11:19 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to Gnome. > XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior? See https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
I'm trying now to make an installation as similar as possible to Gnome. XFCE is the best option for a Gnome-like theme and behavior? El 18/09/17 a les 19:45, Steve Litt ha escrit: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > >> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > Gnome is so tightly would with systemd that it can't be run on Devuan > with reasonable effort. > >> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > > Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory, add > them to /etc/group and /etc/passwd as on the old machine, assign them > temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their > passwords. Set them all up with Xfce, and if they want to migrate to > LXDE or Openbox or ctwm let them do it themselves. > > PS: Do them a favor and incorporate dmenu using an easy hotkey. They'll > be so thrilled with the quick and easy user interface that they'll > never miss Gnome. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical > Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition > http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Le 18/09/2017 à 19:45, Steve Litt a écrit : assign them temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their passwords. Or just copy their shadow passwords. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? Gnome is so tightly would with systemd that it can't be run on Devuan with reasonable effort. > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. Why in the world would you need Gnome? Copy their home directory, add them to /etc/group and /etc/passwd as on the old machine, assign them temporary passwords which you give them, and have them change their passwords. Set them all up with Xfce, and if they want to migrate to LXDE or Openbox or ctwm let them do it themselves. PS: Do them a favor and incorporate dmenu using an easy hotkey. They'll be so thrilled with the quick and easy user interface that they'll never miss Gnome. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 2017-09-18 at 09:02 +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. On IRC September 6 somebody (shwsh) reported gnome running on Devuan. He packaged elogind gnome-settings-deamon. For more info see https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1581 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. For a recent version of Gnome: 1- Install systemd .. Cheers, Ron. -- Whenever one person is found adequate to the discharge of a duty by close application thereto, it is worse executed by two persons and scarcely done at all if three or more are employed therein. -- George Washington -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200, Narcis wrote in message : > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. ..the only versions I can recommend, are the gnome-1.x-ish versions that came with S.u.S.E.-5.2. It was wonderful back then 19 years ago, and _might_ pass you desktop users snifftest even now. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gnome?
Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > Another one: > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=785956 > > It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much > less has it as the default. My best guess after watching many organisations' behaviour: Most of the decision-makers focus only on their own specific, small-scope problems and don't even bother to see larger trends, let alone worry about their implications. It's actually more troubling than willful bad policy; it's effectively a lack of policy, people in charge just not paying attention. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 02:52:18PM -0400, zap wrote: > removing runit-init and most other init options? runit-init got dropped not because of malice -- or rather, very much because of malice but on the side of a bloody dictator rather than that of the Debian release team. After Dmitry Bogatov got arrested, no one stepped in to fix the package on time -- I for one don't know runit at all; I've warned you guys (Message-ID: 20170526221516.wiortq7mwcgcg...@angband.pl) but no one from DNG stepped in either. Packages with RC bugs and a whooping popcon of 7 get dropped without a second thought. For me, sysvinit is good enough -- it's the rc system not init that matters. If someone makes a case why we should use runit-init instead, please go ahead. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ James Damore is a hero. Even mild criticism of bigots these days ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ comes at great personal risk. ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"
> Nope, this is unrelated. And they had no souls even late in Gnome2 days, > before systemd was even a glimmer in Lennart's eye. > That is very surprising, and here I thought they once had a conscience... Although gnome 3 and systemd are very lets call it: "unnecessary" I say that only because of what debian has done because of those two things. Making systemd a required dependency for things that don't really need it + removing runit-init and most other init options? sounds nasty to me. I thought debian was the universally free operating system. ;) meh, false advertising, look away if you can... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements" (OT)
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 19:35:55 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > And they had no souls even late in Gnome2 days, > before systemd was even a glimmer in Lennart's eye. which probably made it easier for the Evil One to take them under his thrall... Cheers, Ron. -- To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition. -- Woody Allen -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 01:01:16PM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:24:31 +0200 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much > > less has it as the default. > > Could it be because Gnome have sold their immortal souls to Systemd ? Nope, this is unrelated. And they had no souls even late in Gnome2 days, before systemd was even a glimmer in Lennart's eye. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ James Damore is a hero. Even mild criticism of bigots these days ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ comes at great personal risk. ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 18:24:31 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much > less has it as the default. Could it be because Gnome have sold their immortal souls to Systemd ? Cheers, Ron. -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true. -- James Branch Cabell -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] GNOME usability "improvements"
Another one: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=785956 It really makes me wonder why any distribution still even ships Gnome, much less has it as the default. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ James Damore is a hero. Even mild criticism of bigots these days ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ comes at great personal risk. ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 10:45:19 +0200 Antony Stone wrote: > On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote: > > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder > > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or > > Debian which are offering that. > > So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd - > no way round that? Yes, with a caveat. The caveat is that some distros, such as Funtoo, have gone into Gnome and turned off, removed or stubbed calls to systemd. > > > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our > > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can > > work without systemd. > > Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question > "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?" When the DE uses parts of systemd's API or interface or whatever you want to call it, that causes the dependency. Such use is a choice by the DE programmers, as mentioned by Hendrik. One might wonder why the DE programmers would insist on an API from an early-boot process. Why should the DE know about the init or vice versa? The technical answer is that they shouldn't: No reasonable architectural design would favor such interdependency. This is not a technological issue: It's something else. Consider that the people encouraging Gnome<->systemd integration are Gnome, systemd, FreeDesktop.Org and Red Hat, those are the web pages you should look at. Here's my favorite explanation: http://asay.blogspot.ru/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html In the preceding, search down the page for the first occurrence of the word "complexity". I'd like to point out one more thing: There's a price for giving up systemd. If a specific look and feel, or a specific workflow, or a specific program is of higher priority than your computer having a sane software architecture with modularity, encapsulation, interchangeable parts, DIY-friendliness and Linux-obvious testpoints, then a systemd distro is probably your best choice. However, if a reasonable software architecture is of a higher priority, then the way to handle it is to "just say no" to software trying to force you into a specific init system (systemd). I'm pretty sure a Gnome or KDE user could become extremely efficient with LXDE or Xfce or Openbox + dmenu or fvwm or several others GOSFUIs (http://troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm). Humans are remarkably capable to work around their equipment (in this case the GOSFUI). Who hasn't regularly driven a bicycle that steered to the left and a car with not-so-good brakes? Switching between Gnome, KDE, LXDE and Xfce is remarkably easy for the person who adopts the belief that [s]he is in charge of the computer, and not vice versa. The Gnome-liking person not capable of adopting that belief belongs on a systemd-based distro, or better yet, Microsoft Windows, which is even more a path of least resistance. SteveT Steve Litt June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:45:19AM +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what > makes a DE dependent on systemd?" > The decision by the developers to use its interfaces instead of the traditional ones. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote: > > So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches > > due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? > > > > Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian > > Jessie would provide them? > > in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work > great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests > made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on > ASCII. Okay, thanks for the confirmation. > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian > which are offering that. So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd - no way round that? > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can > work without systemd. Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?" Thanks for responding (now that I found the right list to ask on). Antony. -- René Descartes walks in to a bar. The barman asks him "Do you want a drink?" Descartes says "I think not," and disappears. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
hi Antony, On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Antony Stone wrote: > So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due > to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? > > Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian > Jessie > would provide them? in brief I think we can pretty much anticipate that KDE will work great on future Devuan distributions, also according to recent tests made by some enthusiastic members of our community using Plasma on ASCII. but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or Debian which are offering that. the reason why there wasn't much progress made on this front is that in Jessie we concentrated on two main priorities: - establish a solid team and infrastructure to make Devuan born - establish a sustainable strategy to remove systemd dependencies and monitor future ones sneaking in, while granting a reliable transition from Debian 7 and 8 to Devuan 1 as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can work without systemd. This way we also hope to facilitate the work of DE developers, which are welcome to get in touch with us, by providing a clean and familiar environment where to triage systemd-free functionalities. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gnome, KDE?
Hi. https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-2nd-candidate-announce-050517 I notice that the above RC2 release notes say "Removed GNOME, KDE, and Cinnamon as DE options in tasksel. These three DEs are still (mostly) installable after the installation is complete, but they are known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd" I don't see any comment at all about DEs in the LTS 1.0 announcement: https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-jessie-announce-052517 However, they're not available during a DVD installation of Devuan (although I notice that KDE at least does get neatly upgraded if you do a Debian Wheezy -> Devuan Jessie online upgrade). So, are Gnome and KDE currently still "known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd" (and if so, are these documented anywhere)? Or can these be expected to work as well as XFCE, and as well as Debian Jessie would provide them? Thanks, Antony. -- I don't know, maybe if we all waited then cosmic rays would write all our software for us. Of course it might take a while. - Ron Minnich, Los Alamos National Laboratory Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome-creep into Jessie
Le 23/05/2015 19:08, Go Linux a écrit : Thought some of you might find this interesting. A sign of things to come? Or maybe I've totally missed the point (I'm still far from 'back-to-the-living'): Jessie, unwanted Gnome, xdg autostart, Console Kit http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=122178&sid=bd86a0bffd3a77e9f90dc9c52e59a0a7 ___ AFAIK, these directories Documents, Music, Pictures, Public, Templates, and Videos are part of the Freedesktop standard. If you simply delete them, they will be re-created the next time you start your DE, eg Xfce. The way to get rid of them is to define them as an already existing directory in ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs, eg XDG_VIDEOS_DIR="$HOME". Hope the trick can help somebody. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Gnome-creep into Jessie
Thought some of you might find this interesting. A sign of things to come? Or maybe I've totally missed the point (I'm still far from 'back-to-the-living'): Jessie, unwanted Gnome, xdg autostart, Console Kit http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=122178&sid=bd86a0bffd3a77e9f90dc9c52e59a0a7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On 29.12.2014 14:13, Richard wrote: > Yes. > And use a DE like Xfce for easier takeup. > Needless complexity is a trap to delay the Devuan project. IIRC, our primary goal is to bring back the original freedom of chioce, and therefore support non-systemd (or maybe non-freedesktop.*) setups, which Debian just dropped. But we'll also sit ontop of Debian (at least for Jessie). So I dont see any problem in releasing things when they're ready. Maybe in the first stage, we just should work as an "overlay" (like Gentoo folks understand that term - not sure whether just an *additional* repo will be enough for that or a complete mirror is required - perhaps somebody else here can clarify that). For now, I'd suggest doing a rolling release, and maybe fork off "stable" repos from time to time (which will only get bugfixes for already existing packages, but no further changes). Of course, we also should have an experimental/testing stage/repo where fresh things come in quickly - but still based on jessie (not entirely new packages). With that model, we IMHO dont need those long discussions anymore, if some things (eg. Gnome) get interesting enough for people, they will care about them. (for me, personally, Gnome is completely irrelevant - I'm more concerned w/ getting rid of things like polkit, dbus, etc). cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
> > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Vince Mulhollon wrote: > > T.J. seems to be proposing more of a freebsd model, where xmonad is part > of Debian but not part of Freebsd 10.1, although the UI is virtually > identical "apt-get install something" vs "pkg install something". That > would be a big change from the Debian way of doing things, but, it clearly > seems to work very well for freebsd. I'm liking freebsd quite a bit over > recent months. > To some degree. I'm still willing to help out, but after giving this considerable thought, I find myself asking what does a clone of Debian - a "one size fits all" really accomplish? If we intend it to be a distribution for reliable servers, then we are competing directly with RH 6.x, which RH still maintains because not every sysadmin buys into systemd. Looking at the proposed audience, it seems likely to be undervalued. Everyone I have ever worked with has went with either CentOS/Scientific/RHEL over Debian, even when I installed a Debian server at first. What I am proposing is changing the support model. We have limited developer talent at the present time, and that is going to be an issue, and probably remain so until after the first release. This means we have probably have to focus on removing systemd from the relevant packages and copying the rest wholesale. This is not a bad idea, but over the long term I do not think that it will be possible to maintain compatibility with Debian and just offer a limited set of packages to offset systemd. I think that it might be wise to just discuss - not argue - at this point if it might be better to create a minimum core as the focus of Devuan. This core could be updated regularly by the main Devuan team, and serve as a basis for other groups within Devuan to extending it to desktops, servers or whatever. It would be more manageable for our presently limited developer resources. I suggested that "spins" could be created for internal groups for specific purposes: general servers, sendmail, XFCE and so on. That way our developers could work on what they actually use and hopefully produce a more cohesive final result than trying to create a "one size fits all distribution." We have lots of general distributions, but where Linux has had the most success is customized versions for a specific task. "Turnkey" images could be created and distributed rather than simply saying "Here, set it up yourself" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [dng] gnome
I would not miss gnome. Now you have a statistic. I would not miss kde. Now you have two. I would not miss anything. Now you have three. I don't like enlightenment or tabbed window managers. Now you have four. I do like icewm, fvwm, sawfish, and kde. Now you have five. I would not use devuan if X11 and a desktop were unavailible. Now you have six. I've only ever tried out about 7 desktops fyi. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Jude Nelson wrote: > Regarding usage data, do you think Debian's popcon numbers will yield any > useful insights? > I believe there might be significant self selection bias issues WRT who participates. Given that, to save anyone else the time, 9K konsole votes, 31K gnome-terminal votes, emacs23-common 6K, apache2.2-bin 52K, number of submissions 170K. I wouldn't give more than 1 sig fig, but it appears "at least half" of machines don't have gnome installed despite it being the default environment, "less than a sixth actually use gnome" and "about three times as many run gnome vs kde". I agree with T.J. sheer popularity is not a worthy goal, but it can be useful for prioritization and at least 5/6 of Debian popcon participants don't actively use gnome so a "much larger fraction than 5/6 don't use gnome" could be a realistic estimate for this project, so making gnome a major goal is probably un-necessary if almost everyone isn't going to use it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be included if it can, or that it shouldn't be allowed, solely means its not that big of a deal if it makes it or not for most users. "Eh" shrugs shoulders. That is where I disagree with T.J. WRT popularity, yes it would be an impressive technological achievement to ship a non-systemd Gnome, but if almost no one is going to use it anyway, its not terribly important. If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, etc etc. Where I admit T.J. could be right, is what if "every" non-systemd gnome user from the whole linux ecosystem piled into this theoretical non-systemd gnome, then the numbers could swell quite a bit into being a important fraction (faction?) of the distro. T.J. seems to be proposing more of a freebsd model, where xmonad is part of Debian but not part of Freebsd 10.1, although the UI is virtually identical "apt-get install something" vs "pkg install something". That would be a big change from the Debian way of doing things, but, it clearly seems to work very well for freebsd. I'm liking freebsd quite a bit over recent months. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
> > > On Dec 29, 2014 11:26 AM, "Vince Mulhollon" wrote: > >> >> >> In an "emperor has no clothes" moment, does that audience exist other >> than devs and corporate support aka are there any voluntary users who >> wouldn't be happy with something else? >> > Excellent point. > You can recognize the disease from afar by devs writing "user speak" >> instead of "I speak". >> > Also true. > >> I googled around and finding numbers about DE use is apparently >> impossible. I don't think it farfetched that the number of Emacs users >> exceeds Gnome and KDE combined by a large integer multiplier, for example. >> If this data existed, it would help in prioritization. >> > You're looking for data in a market that does not measure that kind of a metric. Majority users that are measured at all are generally Windows users. Popularity does not a useable computer make. If it did, we would all be using Windows. Personally, I think that trying to decide on a DE for someone else is like trying to predict the weather. It's hit and miss at best. If you want a direct OPINION rather than a fact, I think that the best "default" UI out of our of the available ones is XFCE, merely because its memes are familiar enough that any Devuan user can generally figure it out and then install what best fits their workflow. It's also relatively lightweight, and has a large featureset, and can easily be uninstalled without breaking the system's dependency chains. There is a popular meme that the primary purpose of a distro should be a >> bootloader for either KDE or Gnome. I'm convinced thats wrong. >> > That's what you get when everyone is focused on trying to copy Windows, because they believe that majority success is the only success. If there is one thing that the rise of mobile and the downfall of Microsoft has pretty much proven, it is that one size does NOT fit all people, and that the majority CAN fail. What people are interested in is filling a need and having the tools sufficiently familiar so that they can move on to the next thing without wasting excessive time. > >> There is a difference between "This distro is a qmail bootloader and all >> that matters is how well it runs qmail so qmail release blocks absolutely >> the entire project" vs "This distro is marching along with or without us >> and if qmail can't keep up or has license issues or can not implement >> Policy in time, well, guess the release will use exim tough cookies" >> >> Another meme is engineering driven distros vs marketing driven distros. >> A commercial marketing driven distro could ship a "non-desktop, server" >> release without xorg because "servers". However my xmonad / urxvt / emacs >> / chromium desktop will run just fine on the "server" release if no one >> intentionally screws it up, and if the "desktop" release ships with >> mandatory Gnome, the first thing I'll be doing with all that work is dpkg >> --purge ing it and installing xmonad / urxvt / emacs / chromium. >> >> I mean, personally, I kinda like Stella and Simh but I'm not proposing a >> distro bend over backwards for them and I think that is the proper place of >> bloated DEs. >> > A better question might be: "What is the absolute minimum that Devuan needs to boot and manage a system?" I'd call that "Devuan Core." That IMHO should be the sole main focus of the Devuan team. Everything else can be tailored later to fit a need, say a "sendmail spin" or a "XFCE spin" and make them as "turnkey" as might be accomplished. Create what can fill a need, and then Devuan will be a success. Try to copy Windows - with a "one size fits all" install and I think Devuan will end up the same as other distributions. It will have a passionate fanbase, but only the fans will take the time to tailor it for real world use. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On 12/29/2014 2:55 AM, KatolaZ wrote If I can give my 2 cents to this discussion, I would like to point out that the "Conquest of the Desktop Market" is just a nonsense, and I believe that RedHat knows it very well. GNU/Linux has never taken off on desktops, and probably never will, first because the battle has already been won by Apple and second because desktops will practically disappear (meaning that they will represent an even smaller fraction of the overall market), replaced by smartphones and smart-tvs. The whole "desktop is dead" is nothing more than a media blitz for the uninformed and a distraction for the rest of us. . It is not worth the waste of words. A computer is a computer. The form factor is almost entirely irrelevant. What people want and need is software that runs where they need it to. The whole idea of desktop software being a different software than what you would use on a phone is silly. Yes, the UI might be different, but the codebase is the same. The Linux kernel and libraries are examples, both of which are used on desktops and phones. The reason I'm writing this now is that I think we need to be careful not to adopt a mindset that might be a detriment later Let's focus on the niche in which GNU/Linux has still the possibility to say a word, i.e. the server and backend world. I must disagree, or at least I would have worded it differently. This a bad mindset to get into. As software engineers, we shouldn't measure success by popularity. We measure success by how well we filled a need. If we aim our sights low, and say we are sticking with one area because that is only where we will have success, then we are selling ourselves short. Devuan should concern itself with filling a need and going from there. This is exactly what RedHat is doing, in the end, with the systemd nonsense: one init to rule them all. They know very well that the market that counts for GNU/Linux is on the server side, and the systemd nonsense is the last strike to effectively wipe out all its competitors there. And they have already made a big step in that direction, mainly thanks to the silent and quick adoption of the systemd nonsense by virtually all the distros which might interfere with the plan, including SuSe and Debian. I'm sorry but "rubbish"! Systemd is no more an attempt to "take over" more than Martians and the common cold. They just have a different solution, and that is not a bad thing. Choice is what we do. Linux is open source, and as long as that is the case, no one can just "take over" because you can fork whatever you want. The community is interested in systemd because it easier to maintain that System 5. Easier does not always mean better. I think we can all agree on that. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:26:42AM -0600, Vince Mulhollon wrote: [cut] > > A summary might be DEs probably are not as popular or important or actually > used as much as very widely believed in the dev community, so intense focus > on them above all other software is counterproductive. I tend to agree with Vince about the "too much ado for nothing" concerning desktop environments (I myself am a WindowMaker/xmonad user...) but we can't just ignore the fact that Debian/Devuan users should be free to use their desktop of choice, as they have been so far. I would suggest to keep in mind the original aim of this project: fork Debian to get rid of the systemd nonsense. And Debian is the only distro to date which supports dozens of WMs/DEs/DMs, so I think we should strive to keep up with this good habit. Having said that, we all know that supporting GNOME without systemd will probably require some additional effort with respect to a first Devuan without systemd (and without GNOME). I think that it would be probably better to first have a functioning Devuan (even without GNOME) and then we should try to get GNOME back on board. But since I am not currently helping at all with the development, I don't really expect this suggestion to be taken that seriously :) Just let's try not to loose momentum and focus. As I always keep saying, we have seen too many projects killed by too much initial excitement not backed up by sufficient manpower, and I wouldn't like this to happen to Devuan My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
Excellent post, Vince! Regarding usage data, do you think Debian's popcon numbers will yield any useful insights? Jude On Dec 29, 2014 11:26 AM, "Vince Mulhollon" wrote: > On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Mauro Cicio wrote: > >> we are not ready to give up the philosophical principles behind *nix ("do >> 1 thing and do it right") and the freedom that comes with the "free as in >> speech" part of the FSF GNU. >> > > I like that, maybe as a project motto or marketing tagline. > > the GNOME audience >> > > In an "emperor has no clothes" moment, does that audience exist other than > devs and corporate support aka are there any voluntary users who wouldn't > be happy with something else? You can recognize the disease from afar by > devs writing "user speak" instead of "I speak". "Well, the users really > need automounting of iomega zip disks, because, users". "Sorry we had to > product tie to one inner platform anti-pattern init system, but we had to > do it distro wide, because, users" Unfortunately there are no users so it > doesn't really matter, and the actual users that do exist won't use that > junk and are already installing freebsd. It reminds me of the Windows > Mobile community which very passionately believes in itself, although > statistically no one in the real world actually voluntarily uses it. > > I googled around and finding numbers about DE use is apparently > impossible. I don't think it farfetched that the number of Emacs users > exceeds Gnome and KDE combined by a large integer multiplier, for example. > If this data existed, it would help in prioritization. > > There is a popular meme that the primary purpose of a distro should be a > bootloader for either KDE or Gnome. I'm convinced thats wrong. > > There is a difference between "This distro is a qmail bootloader and all > that matters is how well it runs qmail so qmail release blocks absolutely > the entire project" vs "This distro is marching along with or without us > and if qmail can't keep up or has license issues or can not implement > Policy in time, well, guess the release will use exim tough cookies" > > Another meme is engineering driven distros vs marketing driven distros. A > commercial marketing driven distro could ship a "non-desktop, server" > release without xorg because "servers". However my xmonad / urxvt / emacs > / chromium desktop will run just fine on the "server" release if no one > intentionally screws it up, and if the "desktop" release ships with > mandatory Gnome, the first thing I'll be doing with all that work is dpkg > --purge ing it and installing xmonad / urxvt / emacs / chromium. > > I mean, personally, I kinda like Stella and Simh but I'm not proposing a > distro bend over backwards for them and I think that is the proper place of > bloated DEs. > > A summary might be DEs probably are not as popular or important or > actually used as much as very widely believed in the dev community, so > intense focus on them above all other software is counterproductive. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Mauro Cicio wrote: > we are not ready to give up the philosophical principles behind *nix ("do > 1 thing and do it right") and the freedom that comes with the "free as in > speech" part of the FSF GNU. > I like that, maybe as a project motto or marketing tagline. the GNOME audience > In an "emperor has no clothes" moment, does that audience exist other than devs and corporate support aka are there any voluntary users who wouldn't be happy with something else? You can recognize the disease from afar by devs writing "user speak" instead of "I speak". "Well, the users really need automounting of iomega zip disks, because, users". "Sorry we had to product tie to one inner platform anti-pattern init system, but we had to do it distro wide, because, users" Unfortunately there are no users so it doesn't really matter, and the actual users that do exist won't use that junk and are already installing freebsd. It reminds me of the Windows Mobile community which very passionately believes in itself, although statistically no one in the real world actually voluntarily uses it. I googled around and finding numbers about DE use is apparently impossible. I don't think it farfetched that the number of Emacs users exceeds Gnome and KDE combined by a large integer multiplier, for example. If this data existed, it would help in prioritization. There is a popular meme that the primary purpose of a distro should be a bootloader for either KDE or Gnome. I'm convinced thats wrong. There is a difference between "This distro is a qmail bootloader and all that matters is how well it runs qmail so qmail release blocks absolutely the entire project" vs "This distro is marching along with or without us and if qmail can't keep up or has license issues or can not implement Policy in time, well, guess the release will use exim tough cookies" Another meme is engineering driven distros vs marketing driven distros. A commercial marketing driven distro could ship a "non-desktop, server" release without xorg because "servers". However my xmonad / urxvt / emacs / chromium desktop will run just fine on the "server" release if no one intentionally screws it up, and if the "desktop" release ships with mandatory Gnome, the first thing I'll be doing with all that work is dpkg --purge ing it and installing xmonad / urxvt / emacs / chromium. I mean, personally, I kinda like Stella and Simh but I'm not proposing a distro bend over backwards for them and I think that is the proper place of bloated DEs. A summary might be DEs probably are not as popular or important or actually used as much as very widely believed in the dev community, so intense focus on them above all other software is counterproductive. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
> ... Xfce ... > ... Enlightenment ... Well, I am using fluxbox myself, but I wouldn't mind if it was not available from day 1: I can still compile it, if I really want it. The same is very likely true for most of the people in this list: we can live without our pet WM out of the box, but we are not ready to give up the philosophical principles behind *nix ("do 1 thing and do it right") and the freedom that comes with the "free as in speech" part of the FSF GNU. The main goal we should strive for here is to have a two steps release process, not to lose the momentum. E.g.: - Devuan - server release / Devuan - desktop release or - Devuan - base release / Devuan - GNOME release or - ... The point being: if there is a reasonable and pubic release plan, we can keep the momentum while not losing the interest of the GNOME audience, which can be interested in jumping to Devuan at a later point in time. Characterizing Devuan as anti-GNOME or - on the other end of he spectrum - making it GNOME dependent seem to be a bad ideas at this stage. Cheers, Mauro On 29 December 2014 at 15:16, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: > On 29 December 2014 at 11:13, Richard wrote: > >> An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest >>> majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not. >>> >> >> Yes. >> And use a DE like Xfce for easier takeup. >> > > Or Enlightenment... I'm using it on a daily basis, it is very stable, > smooth and beautiful... It have a option to "disable-systemd"... :-) > > Never tried Xfce, I'll give it a shot... > > Cheers! > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On 29 December 2014 at 11:13, Richard wrote: > An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest >> majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not. >> > > Yes. > And use a DE like Xfce for easier takeup. > Or Enlightenment... I'm using it on a daily basis, it is very stable, smooth and beautiful... It have a option to "disable-systemd"... :-) Never tried Xfce, I'll give it a shot... Cheers! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
> > An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest > majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not. > Yes. And use a DE like Xfce for easier takeup. Needless complexity is a trap to delay the Devuan project. On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Mauro Cicio wrote: > Why do we want to make the group of those not interested in GNOME wait for > GNOME, when not waiting would result in no major impact on those that are > interested in GNOME (probably a minority, BTW)? > > It is enough to have a two step release, the first w/o GNOME, which will > be in the second half of the release. > The GNOMErs will have to wait longer anyway. Why drag everybody in that? > Is there any advantage in having a catch-all release? > > No need for polarisation or bridge burning. Just announce a two step > release. > > Realistically, a tiny minority of those ready to leave Debian "just" for > init freedom would make having GNOME sooner rather than later a deciding > point. > An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest > majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not. > Addressing quickly this important subset of the community would guarantee > Devuan some chances of success. > > mauro > > > > > On 29 December 2014 at 09:55, KatolaZ wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:50:07PM -0500, Clarke Sideroad wrote: >> > I think this whole CLI - GUI thing causes a lot more polarization >> > than it should. >> > There are I'm sure a lot of people like myself who use the linux >> > desktop day to day, have no problem dealing with the command line or >> > administering a few boxes. >> > A lot of desktop users are long term geeks, nerds and computer >> > weirdos who don't fit into the Gnome/Redhat "Future of the Desktop" >> > mold. >> >> If I can give my 2 cents to this discussion, I would like to point out >> that the "Conquest of the Desktop Market" is just a nonsense, and I >> believe that RedHat knows it very well. GNU/Linux has never taken off >> on desktops, and probably never will, first because the battle has >> already been won by Apple and second because desktops will practically >> disappear (meaning that they will represent an even smaller fraction >> of the overall market), replaced by smartphones and smart-tvs. >> >> Let's focus on the niche in which GNU/Linux has still the possibility >> to say a word, i.e. the server and backend world. This is exactly what >> RedHat is doing, in the end, with the systemd nonsense: one init to >> rule them all. They know very well that the market that counts for >> GNU/Linux is on the server side, and the systemd nonsense is the last >> strike to effectively wipe out all its competitors there. And they >> have already made a big step in that direction, mainly thanks to the >> silent and quick adoption of the systemd nonsense by virtually all the >> distros which might interfere with the plan, including SuSe and >> Debian. >> >> Let's try to focus on making a init-free debian-like distro for the >> moment, even at the cost of temporarily loosing some functionality >> (e.g., GNOME) and/or some users (e.g., GNOMErs). IMHO, it's far better >> (and maybe easier) to find tricks and hacks to let GNOME run on a >> functioning Devuan later on, than delaying the release of a >> functioning Devuan just to have GNOME on it since from the >> beginning. Too many projects have already been drowned by the GNOME >> nonsense >> >> My2Cents >> >> KatolaZ >> >> >> -- >> [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] >> [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] >> [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] >> [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > -- MX-14, Mint-LTS, PCLOS, Gobo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
Why do we want to make the group of those not interested in GNOME wait for GNOME, when not waiting would result in no major impact on those that are interested in GNOME (probably a minority, BTW)? It is enough to have a two step release, the first w/o GNOME, which will be in the second half of the release. The GNOMErs will have to wait longer anyway. Why drag everybody in that? Is there any advantage in having a catch-all release? No need for polarisation or bridge burning. Just announce a two step release. Realistically, a tiny minority of those ready to leave Debian "just" for init freedom would make having GNOME sooner rather than later a deciding point. An init-free debian-like distro would be very appealing for the largest majority of those that would consider installing Devuan, GNOME or not. Addressing quickly this important subset of the community would guarantee Devuan some chances of success. mauro On 29 December 2014 at 09:55, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:50:07PM -0500, Clarke Sideroad wrote: > > I think this whole CLI - GUI thing causes a lot more polarization > > than it should. > > There are I'm sure a lot of people like myself who use the linux > > desktop day to day, have no problem dealing with the command line or > > administering a few boxes. > > A lot of desktop users are long term geeks, nerds and computer > > weirdos who don't fit into the Gnome/Redhat "Future of the Desktop" > > mold. > > If I can give my 2 cents to this discussion, I would like to point out > that the "Conquest of the Desktop Market" is just a nonsense, and I > believe that RedHat knows it very well. GNU/Linux has never taken off > on desktops, and probably never will, first because the battle has > already been won by Apple and second because desktops will practically > disappear (meaning that they will represent an even smaller fraction > of the overall market), replaced by smartphones and smart-tvs. > > Let's focus on the niche in which GNU/Linux has still the possibility > to say a word, i.e. the server and backend world. This is exactly what > RedHat is doing, in the end, with the systemd nonsense: one init to > rule them all. They know very well that the market that counts for > GNU/Linux is on the server side, and the systemd nonsense is the last > strike to effectively wipe out all its competitors there. And they > have already made a big step in that direction, mainly thanks to the > silent and quick adoption of the systemd nonsense by virtually all the > distros which might interfere with the plan, including SuSe and > Debian. > > Let's try to focus on making a init-free debian-like distro for the > moment, even at the cost of temporarily loosing some functionality > (e.g., GNOME) and/or some users (e.g., GNOMErs). IMHO, it's far better > (and maybe easier) to find tricks and hacks to let GNOME run on a > functioning Devuan later on, than delaying the release of a > functioning Devuan just to have GNOME on it since from the > beginning. Too many projects have already been drowned by the GNOME > nonsense > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 10:50:07PM -0500, Clarke Sideroad wrote: > I think this whole CLI - GUI thing causes a lot more polarization > than it should. > There are I'm sure a lot of people like myself who use the linux > desktop day to day, have no problem dealing with the command line or > administering a few boxes. > A lot of desktop users are long term geeks, nerds and computer > weirdos who don't fit into the Gnome/Redhat "Future of the Desktop" > mold. If I can give my 2 cents to this discussion, I would like to point out that the "Conquest of the Desktop Market" is just a nonsense, and I believe that RedHat knows it very well. GNU/Linux has never taken off on desktops, and probably never will, first because the battle has already been won by Apple and second because desktops will practically disappear (meaning that they will represent an even smaller fraction of the overall market), replaced by smartphones and smart-tvs. Let's focus on the niche in which GNU/Linux has still the possibility to say a word, i.e. the server and backend world. This is exactly what RedHat is doing, in the end, with the systemd nonsense: one init to rule them all. They know very well that the market that counts for GNU/Linux is on the server side, and the systemd nonsense is the last strike to effectively wipe out all its competitors there. And they have already made a big step in that direction, mainly thanks to the silent and quick adoption of the systemd nonsense by virtually all the distros which might interfere with the plan, including SuSe and Debian. Let's try to focus on making a init-free debian-like distro for the moment, even at the cost of temporarily loosing some functionality (e.g., GNOME) and/or some users (e.g., GNOMErs). IMHO, it's far better (and maybe easier) to find tricks and hacks to let GNOME run on a functioning Devuan later on, than delaying the release of a functioning Devuan just to have GNOME on it since from the beginning. Too many projects have already been drowned by the GNOME nonsense My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
I think this whole CLI - GUI thing causes a lot more polarization than it should. There are I'm sure a lot of people like myself who use the linux desktop day to day, have no problem dealing with the command line or administering a few boxes. A lot of desktop users are long term geeks, nerds and computer weirdos who don't fit into the Gnome/Redhat "Future of the Desktop" mold. Any day now Gnome/Redhat/systemd imagine they are going to dominate the whole Linux Desktop. The consumer interface pie has largely been eaten, when chance for the "Year of the Linux Desktop" happened everybody was too busy laughing at Microsoft and watching mobiles. The GNU/Linux desktop end of things is a very tiny piece of the whole world computer pie, Internet and otherwise. It is also a fractional piece of the dedicated Linux boxes out there. I think it is important that when logic takes back over and the train gets aligned back on the tracks that we don't alienate entirely the red hatted, gnome desktopped, minority in their systemd dream world. I think it is crucial that the parallel world with its controlledconfusiond can exist as both an example and as a mental sandbox for those so inclined. Now THAT is the beauty of Linux. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Gnome
I'm an end user, mainly using Mint LMDE. I've been testing Jessie and was disappointed to find the numerous bugs in systemd. Also the way so many apps were dependent on Gnome and vice versa. I would favour "get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs" and offer optional desktops later (preferably Cinnamon). Good luck and thanks for your efforts. Michael Davies On 29/12/14 10:49, Jaromil wrote: On Sun, 28 Dec 2014, Klaus Hartnegg wrote: Am 28.12.2014 21:47, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: OTOH desktop users that will be attracted to Devuan will also be in majority the same who also already renounced Gnome and Kde. Very likely yes. But still the largest number of all is probably server admins. Yes. Easy to evince from all responses we received on VUA email address. Sysadmins are definitely our usecase and we plan to provide professional users of Debian in this sense. Yet we don't exclude the needs of desktop environment - and in general we will be investing in R&D also to set a mark for other distros who are not sharing revenues with upstream. Let me remind you that DE does not mean just casual consumer grade use of a desktop, but also professional use, as in case of multimedia production. There are many issues that Devuan can also fix there, starting from the FFMpeg removal from Debian... Linux is mostly a server OS anyway, and desktop users probably care less about the init system than server admins do. Am 28.12.2014 22:02, schrieb Dima Krasner: IMHO, if we're *technically* able to deliever GNOME, we definitely should do that YES! The suggestion of the OP was not to drop Gnome, but to avoid a delay by "get Devuan up and running with DEs/WMs that are not so entangled with systemd, then tackle Gnome once the basic structure is in place". What is quoted above is defintely aligned with the current focus for Devuan developers. Does anybody have an idea how many server admins, and how many desktop users are interested in Devuan? a good start is this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems then again, from what I could read in the huge amount of feedback we had: the vast majority of people caring about this project, including the core developers who are themselves running server farms: we are mostly server admins users, often relying on Debian in our professional life. I still recommend using GNU/Linux on desktops, especially for people that have a mission-critical reliance on their desktop use like journalists or activists. But we must also acknowledge there are plenty of Debian developers that themselves are using Apple/OSX as their own desktop. So to say, DE is not exactly a situation we want to compete for, since we have even lost many people among our own tribes, if you get my point straight. Look, I've been in the DE and liveCD DE shuffle of GNU/Linux in the past 15 years myself - as much as many readers here - and obviously today I'm quite opinionated about it. Let me just say that, with all the work done in between - including the Ubuntu fork - we are still a minority of users of GNU/Linux on desktop. There is no point on working hard to improve that situation now with Devuan, since our priorities and worries are different and mostly related to the systemd avalanche, which is a deeper issue affecting many different interests. Being pragmatic, as of today I'd be most interested in knowing what the developer community of kFreeBSD or Hurd is planning to do: if they see Devuan as a reliable new base to continue their efforts, or if not then what we can improve in our plans so that they can perceive us as an opportunity to survive. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Cheers, Mike ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng