Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 08:10, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > First one is the concept of an abbreviation: I'm strongly with > the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation. I > doubt if anyone disagree on this. > > Ok, let's see what we have in English: > > Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ... > Sun, Mon, Tue, ... > S, M, T, ... > > January, February, March, ... > Jan, Feb, Mar, ... > J, F, M, ... > > Let's call the first representation the "long form", the second > the "short form", and the third the "letter form". Now, again, I > doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the "short > form" are called abbreviations, neither the "long form", nor the > "letter form". > > And where are they used: > > * "long form", in long date representations. Using the usual > sample: "Tuesday, 21 September 1982". > > * "short form", in a compact representation and in width-limited > fields: "Tue, 21 Sep 1982". > > * "letter form", used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of > a calendar. Like this: > > September 1982 > S M T W T F S > 1 2 3 4 >5 6 7 8 9 10 11 > 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 > 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 > 26 27 28 29 30 > > Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even > better: > > September 1982 > Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa > 1 2 3 4 >5 6 7 8 9 10 11 > 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 > 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 > 26 27 28 29 30 > > But you never see: "T, 21 S 1982", do you? (mister Jones :P). > So, the point is that, the "letter form" (or "biletter form") is > not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation > of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements. Again, > note that it's simply "S", not "S.", ie. no abbreviation. I copy everything to this point. I agree completely now. (I believed otherwise about two months ago or something like that, until Behdad convinced me.) > * "short form", we don't have short forms in Persian. There is > an strong reason for that: We don't have upper and lower case > letters. Why can we have these abbreviations in English? > Because "Sat" is completely different from "sat". But that's not > possible in Persian. In Persian the only way to make > abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like > "h.sh." for "hejrie shamshi". I can't agree. There are other ways, like what Mosahab Persian Encyclopedia has done. I'll get one of FarsiWeb staff to scan a page. > * "letter form", is again used quite like the English case, ie. > in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else. Agreed. > So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys > use it in Sharif University :P. Hmmm... They use it where you say they use it. On tables. > If you find anyone who claims > "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I > described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. I copy you. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :). You've indeed clarified the conflicting results of the vote. I shall update my info accordingly. > So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys > use it in Sharif University :P. OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any flamefests until AFTER he's done with the fonts. Then you may have a go at him all you like :) > If you find anyone who claims > "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I > described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. > Ok, time to go, OK, some other time we can discuss use of ZWJ & tatweel & isolated letter plus period used for abbreviations/short forms in Persian dictionaries. (There's usually a chart in the front of the book.) Something to look forward to in the future. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Hi Connie, Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :). First one is the concept of an abbreviation: I'm strongly with the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation. I doubt if anyone disagree on this. Ok, let's see what we have in English: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ... Sun, Mon, Tue, ... S, M, T, ... January, February, March, ... Jan, Feb, Mar, ... J, F, M, ... Let's call the first representation the "long form", the second the "short form", and the third the "letter form". Now, again, I doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the "short form" are called abbreviations, neither the "long form", nor the "letter form". And where are they used: * "long form", in long date representations. Using the usual sample: "Tuesday, 21 September 1982". * "short form", in a compact representation and in width-limited fields: "Tue, 21 Sep 1982". * "letter form", used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of a calendar. Like this: September 1982 S M T W T F S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even better: September 1982 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 But you never see: "T, 21 S 1982", do you? (mister Jones :P). So, the point is that, the "letter form" (or "biletter form") is not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements. Again, note that it's simply "S", not "S.", ie. no abbreviation. Now, let's see what we have in Persian: * "long form", is used exactly as in the English one. * "short form", we don't have short forms in Persian. There is an strong reason for that: We don't have upper and lower case letters. Why can we have these abbreviations in English? Because "Sat" is completely different from "sat". But that's not possible in Persian. In Persian the only way to make abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like "h.sh." for "hejrie shamshi". * "letter form", is again used quite like the English case, ie. in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else. So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys use it in Sharif University :P. If you find anyone who claims "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. Ok, time to go, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Oh! I am late to vote! No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that voters actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants to submit their vote, please do so. > It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars. Interesting that we have the full spectrum now from "never" to "very common." -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Oh! I am late to vote! In IranL10nInfo draft we have defined the first letter of the weekdays for their abbreviated names. You can see it in the first table of section [3.2]: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2-DateTimeNamingAndPatterns And the description is: [3.2.3] It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars. However, it is so rare to see this short form in a representation of a date. We had also some recent posts about the day and month names you can read here and discuss if you wish: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/forum/?messageid=10 Thanks Omid K. Rad _ <> http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft -- 'C Bobroff' Wrote: > Results of the Survey: > > Never: 3 votes > Rarely: 2 votes > Sometimes: 2 votes > > (Plus one more "never" vote from the person who vehemently objected to > my putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this > poll!) > > I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Yet > another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted > in the smaller sizes. > > Thank you for the input! > -Connie > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002
Title: Message Try this link:http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/ref/ns/System.Globalization/c/JalaaliCalendar/JalaaliCalendar.aspxOmid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Dear Behdad, Dear Omid, Thanks for your *clarification*. > > ...in your references, I couldn't find any reference for this bold > claim. > > Click on System.Globalization.JalaaliCalendar in the article, it links > to this page on MSDN: > http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/?//longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/ > ref/ns/System.Globalization/c/JalaaliCalendar/JalaaliCalendar.aspx It simply redirects me to: http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/portal_nav.htm Which apparently is not related. > > ...I see you have named the first section of your site "FarsiWeb" ...I > definitely appreciate if you clarify your intention on using the same > name in your site > > The website www.IranASP.NET is not MY site. I suggest you study the > links well before you ask me for clarifications. Sorry, my fault. > Truly, > Omid K. Rad Cheers, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002
Dear Behdad, > ...in your references, I couldn't find any reference for this bold claim. Click on System.Globalization.JalaaliCalendar in the article, it links to this page on MSDN: http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/?//longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/ ref/ns/System.Globalization/c/JalaaliCalendar/JalaaliCalendar.aspx > ...I see you have named the first section of your site "FarsiWeb" ...I definitely appreciate if you clarify your intention on using the same name in your site The website www.IranASP.NET is not MY site. I suggest you study the links well before you ask me for clarifications. Truly, Omid K. Rad -Original Message- From: Behdad Esfahbod [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 27, 2004 6:04 PM To: Omid K. Rad Cc: 'PersianComputing' Subject: Re: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002 Dear Mr Omid K. Rad, I read your article at: http://www.iranasp.net/whatever/jalaalicalendar.aspx where you claim that "JalaaliCalendar" is going to be added to LongHorn and .NET 1.2. But in your references, I couldn't find any reference for this bold claim. I would appreciate if you clarify. Second and more important, I see you have named the first section of your site "FarsiWeb", which contains articles about Persian in Web: http://www.iranasp.net/Articles/Category.aspx?catid=1 As you definitely know, the FarsiWeb Project has been active and online at http://www.farsiweb.info/ for a few years now. I definitely appreciate if you clarify your intention on using the same name in your site, as it definitely will be misleading for a few people. Moreover, I personally appreciate that if you change the name. Sincerely, Behdad Esfahbod FarsiWeb Project http://farsiweb.info/ On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Hi, > > Currently it is not supported internally by Windows. Anyways, in the > next release of Windows you can do that, hopefully. > > Follow the link: http://www.iranasp.net/whatever/jalaalicalendar.aspx > > > Omid K. Rad ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IranL10nInfo
> <> Omid, Thanks and good idea. Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data? No one is looking out for them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in Afghanistan. There are dozens of online converters but all they've done I think is take FarsiWeb's Jalali converter and change Esfand to Hut, etc with no attention to the different way the leap year is calculated making the calendar useless. (Luckily someone finally provided me with a trustworthy off-line calendar.) Then I tried to type a paragraph in Tajik and the best font I could find was a hacked Times New Roman which was unusable. A side benefit to taking the other "Persians" into consideration is that it brings up issues of Iran Persian which might have otherwise gone unnoticed. Just a humble suggestion. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > Results of the Survey: > > Never: 3 votes > Rarely: 2 votes > Sometimes: 2 votes > > (Plus one more "never" vote from the person who vehemently objected to my > putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this > poll!) > > I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Good you finally got it... ;) > Yet another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted > in the smaller sizes. > > Thank you for the input! > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002
Dear Mr Omid K. Rad, I read your article at: http://www.iranasp.net/whatever/jalaalicalendar.aspx where you claim that "JalaaliCalendar" is going to be added to LongHorn and .NET 1.2. But in your references, I couldn't find any reference for this bold claim. I would appreciate if you clarify. Second and more important, I see you have named the first section of your site "FarsiWeb", which contains articles about Persian in Web: http://www.iranasp.net/Articles/Category.aspx?catid=1 As you definitely know, the FarsiWeb Project has been active and online at http://www.farsiweb.info/ for a few years now. I definitely appreciate if you clarify your intention on using the same name in your site, as it definitely will be misleading for a few people. Moreover, I personally appreciate that if you change the name. Sincerely, Behdad Esfahbod FarsiWeb Project http://farsiweb.info/ On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Hi, > > Currently it is not supported internally by Windows. Anyways, > in the next release of Windows you can do that, hopefully. > > Follow the link: > http://www.iranasp.net/whatever/jalaalicalendar.aspx > > > Omid K. Rad --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. > Good you finally got it... ;) Thank you for your vigilance ...and patience, Behdad. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Results of the Survey: Never: 3 votes Rarely: 2 votes Sometimes: 2 votes (Plus one more "never" vote from the person who vehemently objected to my putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this poll!) I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Yet another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted in the smaller sizes. Thank you for the input! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002
Hi, Currently it is not supported internally by Windows. Anyways, in the next release of Windows you can do that, hopefully. Follow the link: http://www.iranasp.net/whatever/jalaalicalendar.aspx Omid K. Rad > Hello all, > > Would you please advise if it is possible to use Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002 > calendar under XP? > > Thanks > > > Cyrus Etezadi ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
IranL10nInfo
<> Hello everybody, I would like to inform you about the new project we have recently run at iDevCenter.com. We are preparing a draft of the correct information about the Persian language and Iran that shall be used in the Microsoft .NET and Windows platforms, intending to propose to the International Developments section of Microsoft Corporation afterwards. We are eagerly looking forward for your contribution and support to this mission. Please check out the latest draft here: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/ Homepage in persian: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/ Sincerely, Omid K. Rad ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Why? I think when you have Fe-Re, Aliph-Re, and Mim-Re, representing Khordad as Khe-Re will make no misunderstanding. > On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Also you can see that all >> Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters. > > That may be a little weird for cases like Khordad... > > roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Also you can see that all > Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters. That may be a little weird for cases like Khordad... roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
I think that's not so rare. I have seen some. Also you can see that all Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters. --Saint Ali > Hello, > > I have a question for those of you actually living in Iran. > > Are the days of the week ever written in a short form with just one > letter? For example, > shanbeh written as shin > yek-shanbeh written as yeh > do-shanbeh written as dal > seh-shanbeh written as sin > etc > > Please email me your answer: yes, no, often, rarely, never... according > to what you've seen and I'll summarize. Again, those living > outside Iran, please don't participate because you may have been > influenced by another language. > > Thanks! > > -Connie > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing