RE: Material Prices !!

[Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum]

The AFSA Forum is intended to be used for the sharing of ideas and technical
questions or issues.  We do not allow, or condone any conversations related
to pricing on any level. Please take this topic off line. It is not
appropriate for this forum and will be deleted by the administrator.

Thank you for your understanding.

Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association

Get in the (Fitter) Zone!
AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during the
workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more here.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 5:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Subject: Re: Material Prices !!

My hogwash radar alarm went off. So I checked. People in the fire sprinkler
protection business did time combing through code and standards books. I
cannot apologize for checking.
US Antitrust laws comprise three acts. One is The Sherman Anti-Trust Act. It
is all about conspiracy in restraint of trade, such as monopolization,
attempted monopolization or conspiracy or combination to monopolize. Wrong
buzzer on that one. The second Act is The Federal Trade Commission Act. It
bans unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or
practices. Wrong buzzer on that one also. The third Act is The Clayton
Antitrust Act. It is about mergers and acquisitions that substantially
lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly. Wrong buzzer for that one
also.
Checking steel prices, the US steel prices are currently 3 to 4 times what
they where at this time last year. The steel prices in other parts of the
world are not exhibiting the same degree of out of balance. The true
antitrust aspect has to do with the price of steel. That alone may not be
what this forum is about, but a good portion of a sprinkler system is steel.
Certainly, business contract practices necessary to ensure the proper health
of fire sprinkler contractors’ businesses so that they can provide and
install effective fire sprinkler systems is forum material.

Alllan Seidel
St. Louis, MO

> On Aug 5, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum
>  wrote:
>
> Just a reminder to the forum that this is toeing the line on
> Anti-Trust Policies. Please refrain from further comment on specific
> pricing of products and proposals.
>
> Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE *Coordinator, Engineering
> and Technical Services*
>
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> p: 214-349-5971
> w: firesprinkler.org
> 
> 
> 
>   
>
>
> *Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*
>
> AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for
> fire sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays
> whenever possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the
> field during the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these
> webinars will be recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.
> Learn more *here* .
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:18 PM JD Gamble via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
>> Who all is demanding an escalation clause in contracts right now?
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum 
>> on behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:14:37 AM
>> To: 321 ;
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>> Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
>> Subject: Re: Material Prices !!
>>
>> Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from
>> around
>> $600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently,
>> in pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating
>> this to your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from
>> the recent high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.
>>
>>
>> Skyler Bilbo
>> 217-819-6404 Cell
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less
>>> than half of that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel
>>> pipe,
>> Iron
>>> Fittings, availability?
>>> On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe
>>> and fittings imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can
>>> Shipping containers for their use.
>>> A 

Re: Material Prices !!

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum]

My hogwash radar alarm went off. So I checked. People in the fire sprinkler 
protection business did time combing through code and standards books. I cannot 
apologize for checking.
US Antitrust laws comprise three acts. One is The Sherman Anti-Trust Act. It is 
all about conspiracy in restraint of trade, such as monopolization, attempted 
monopolization or conspiracy or combination to monopolize. Wrong buzzer on that 
one. The second Act is The Federal Trade Commission Act. It bans unfair methods 
of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices. Wrong buzzer on that 
one also. The third Act is The Clayton Antitrust Act. It is about mergers and 
acquisitions that substantially lessen competition or tend to create a 
monopoly. Wrong buzzer for that one also.
Checking steel prices, the US steel prices are currently 3 to 4 times what they 
where at this time last year. The steel prices in other parts of the world are 
not exhibiting the same degree of out of balance. The true antitrust aspect has 
to do with the price of steel. That alone may not be what this forum is about, 
but a good portion of a sprinkler system is steel. Certainly, business contract 
practices necessary to ensure the proper health of fire sprinkler contractors’ 
businesses so that they can provide and install effective fire sprinkler 
systems is forum material.

Alllan Seidel
St. Louis, MO

> On Aug 5, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> Just a reminder to the forum that this is toeing the line on
> Anti-Trust Policies. Please refrain from further comment on specific
> pricing of products and proposals.
> 
> Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE
> *Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services*
> 
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> p: 214-349-5971
> w: firesprinkler.org
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> *Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*
> 
> AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
> sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
> possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during
> the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
> recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here*
> .
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:18 PM JD Gamble via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> 
>> Who all is demanding an escalation clause in contracts right now?
>> 
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum  on
>> behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:14:37 AM
>> To: 321 ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>> Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
>> Subject: Re: Material Prices !!
>> 
>> Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from around
>> $600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently, in
>> pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating this to
>> your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from the recent
>> high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.
>> 
>> 
>> Skyler Bilbo
>> 217-819-6404 Cell
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less than
>>> half of that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel pipe,
>> Iron
>>> Fittings, availability?
>>> On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe and
>>> fittings imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can Shipping
>>> containers for their use.
>>> A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
>>> 
>>> 
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |  |  |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |  |
>>> A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
>>> 
>>> Nicolás Rivero
>>> 
>>> The shortage of shipping containers is yet another symptom of the havoc
>>> the pandemic has wrought on internationa...
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> |
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I can't pass these cost thru to customers...we budgeted these jobs 6 or 7
>>> months ago with some escalation built in...but not 150% !!
>>> 
>>> John W. FarabeeCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
>>> 561-707-5150
>>> 
>>> 
>>>On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 11:33:13 AM EDT, Spencer Tomlinson via
>>> Sprinklerforum  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well, for
>>> what used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be
>>> another 3-5% coming.
>>> 
>>> Spencer Tomlinson, PE
>>> Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
>>> 

Re: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum]

Considering all the comments: ",,,the vehicle is parked temporarily and a
fire starts" (Scott). That could be while I'm still in the taxi
settling up with the driver. That would imply stopping is permanent
parking. "Merriam-Webster's
Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, shall be the source for the ordinarily
accepted meaning." (Matthew). There is a shall directly from the Good Book,
General: 3.1. "...a dictionary which will define temporary as "lasting for
only a limited period of time; not permanent."" (Taylor). "Lasting or
intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely." (from my easy access
dictionary, not from Webster) (Me). Suggests then that all parking is
temporary. "...what if a truck full of fireworks parks here?" (John). As to
"what ifs," Timothy McVeigh intended for his truck to only be parked
temporarily in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 11:42 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Taylor beat me to it, but here is your verbiage to support Taylor's
> suggestion.
>
> 3.1 General.
> The definitions contained in this chapter shall apply to the terms used in
> this standard. Where
> terms are not defined in this chapter or within another chapter, they
> shall be defined using their
> ordinarily accepted meanings within the context in which they are used.
> Merriam-Webster's
> Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, shall be the source for the
> ordinarily accepted meaning.
>
> R/
> Matt
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Taylor Schumacher via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:45 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Taylor Schumacher 
> Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking
>
> AHJ's get really fun in a hurry when arguing semantics. Point this
> individual to a dictionary which will define temporary as "lasting for only
> a limited period of time; not permanent." If permanent parking is meant to
> assume parked for the night, it would be a REASONABLE assumption that a
> delivery driver would only ever be parked in a temporary fashion, not
> permanently.
>
> I think the term temporary was chosen in the standard for the sole reason
> of it not having a definite time. Otherwise it would have to be enforced
> and monitored.
>
> I have found that in situations like this, the only resolution is to bug
> the awesome people over at AFSA Technical Services for an informal
> interpretation.
>
> Taylor Schumacher
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck <
> ap...@quickresponsefl.com>; Andrew Baldwin ;
> Roberto Alvarez 
> Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking
>
> So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what
> temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he
> doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as
> follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long
> that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be
> sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for
> temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a
> taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any
> other  type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are
> you going to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for
> temporary parking?"
>
> I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I
> believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to
> respond what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for
> extra hazard then?
>
> Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue
> an interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> John Irwin
> Quick Response Fire Protection
> www.quickresponsefl.com
> Office: 844-9QUICKFL
> Cell: 727-282-9243
> Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West
> Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
> East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
> 24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL
>
>
> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> 

Re: Material Prices !!

[Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum]

There's also a shortage of port capacity/unlading capability (and I'll
assume loading at the other end). The Suez parking debacle put everything
using that transit days behind schedule and so tying up those containers
and throwing shipping schedules off. Logistics, logistics, logistics. For
lack of a nail, the shoe, the horse, the messenger, the battle, the war...

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:17 AM Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Just a reminder to the forum that this is toeing the line on
> Anti-Trust Policies. Please refrain from further comment on specific
> pricing of products and proposals.
>
> Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE
> *Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services*
>
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> p: 214-349-5971
> w: firesprinkler.org
> 
> 
> <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/
> >
>
>
>
> *Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*
>
> AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
> sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
> possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during
> the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
> recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here*
> .
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:18 PM JD Gamble via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
> > Who all is demanding an escalation clause in contracts right now?
> >
> > Get Outlook for iOS
> > 
> > From: Sprinklerforum  on
> > behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum <
> > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:14:37 AM
> > To: 321 ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <
> > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> > Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
> > Subject: Re: Material Prices !!
> >
> > Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from
> around
> > $600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently, in
> > pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating this to
> > your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from the recent
> > high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.
> >
> >
> > Skyler Bilbo
> > 217-819-6404 Cell
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
> > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less than
> > > half of that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel pipe,
> > Iron
> > > Fittings, availability?
> > > On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe and
> > > fittings imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can Shipping
> > > containers for their use.
> > > A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
> > >
> > >
> > > |
> > > |
> > > |
> > > |  |  |
> > >
> > >  |
> > >
> > >  |
> > > |
> > > |  |
> > > A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
> > >
> > > Nicolás Rivero
> > >
> > > The shortage of shipping containers is yet another symptom of the havoc
> > > the pandemic has wrought on internationa...
> > >  |
> > >
> > >  |
> > >
> > >  |
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I can't pass these cost thru to customers...we budgeted these jobs 6
> or 7
> > > months ago with some escalation built in...but not 150% !!
> > >
> > > John W. FarabeeCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
> > > 561-707-5150
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 11:33:13 AM EDT, Spencer Tomlinson via
> > > Sprinklerforum  wrote:
> > >
> > >  It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well,
> for
> > > what used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be
> > > another 3-5% coming.
> > >
> > > Spencer Tomlinson, PE
> > > Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
> > >
> > >
> > > Ph:  316-202-6412
> > > Fax: 316-202-2346
> > > Cell: 620-955-7293
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sprinklerforum 
> On
> > > Behalf Of 321 via Sprinklerforum
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:31 AM
> > > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > > Cc: 321 
> > > Subject: Material Prices !!
> > >
> > > I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are
> > > doing. Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch
> > Line
> > > Thin wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not
> > > included!!
> > > Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
> > > ___
> > > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> 

RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum]

Taylor beat me to it, but here is your verbiage to support Taylor's suggestion.

3.1 General.
The definitions contained in this chapter shall apply to the terms used in this 
standard. Where 
terms are not defined in this chapter or within another chapter, they shall be 
defined using their 
ordinarily accepted meanings within the context in which they are used. 
Merriam-Webster's 
Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition, shall be the source for the ordinarily 
accepted meaning.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Taylor Schumacher via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Taylor Schumacher 
Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

AHJ's get really fun in a hurry when arguing semantics. Point this individual 
to a dictionary which will define temporary as "lasting for only a limited 
period of time; not permanent." If permanent parking is meant to assume parked 
for the night, it would be a REASONABLE assumption that a delivery driver would 
only ever be parked in a temporary fashion, not permanently.

I think the term temporary was chosen in the standard for the sole reason of it 
not having a definite time. Otherwise it would have to be enforced and 
monitored.

I have found that in situations like this, the only resolution is to bug the 
awesome people over at AFSA Technical Services for an informal interpretation.

Taylor Schumacher 



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck 
; Andrew Baldwin ; 
Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what 
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he 
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as 
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long 
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be 
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for 
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a 
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any other 
 type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are you going 
to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I 
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to respond 
what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for extra 
hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an 
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West 
Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum]

Appreciate that John. I don't see that information in the original post. Sorry 
I missed the key information and I wouldn't have been a smart*** if I read it 
correctly and thoroughly.
I write, and am governed by, state law as well as professional engineer rules 
and ethics and sprinkler contractor rules.
Electric and gas-powered vehicles start on fire and if that happens under any 
canopy building structural integrity and firefighting operations can be 
compromised.
Best Regards,

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

From: John Irwin 
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 1:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Scott Futrell 
Cc: Aaron Peck ; Andrew Baldwin 
; Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: Re: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

Scott, I can appreciate all of that, but Florida has a state fire code. And we 
as life safety professionals (contractors or AHJs) don't get to debate and 
write code for each job. We're talking about a regular old covered drive 
through. Not a dock meant for loading. It's a porte cochere. And parking is 
temporary.
John Irwin
Director Of Construction
Quick Response Fire Protection
727-282-9243
Typed on tiny keys, just for you. Please forgive spelling errors, typographical 
transgressions and grammatical gaffs.


From: Scott Futrell mailto:sco...@ffcdi.com>>
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 2:04:31 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Cc: John Irwin mailto:jir...@quickresponsefl.com>>; 
Aaron Peck mailto:ap...@quickresponsefl.com>>; 
Andrew Baldwin 
mailto:abald...@quickresponsefl.com>>; Roberto 
Alvarez mailto:ralva...@quickresponsefl.com>>
Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

I can't wait to hear what John and Kevin have to say.
It seems that if the sprinkler system understands the vehicle parked under the 
canopy is only there temporarily then it isn't a problem. However, if the 
sprinkler system doesn't understand the vehicle is parked temporarily and a 
fire starts (that can and does happen), that can spread to the building (which 
can and does happen), then the sprinkler system has to know how to control that 
fire, right?
There could certainly be variables 1 - structure construction; 2 - use for 
autos and people only; 3) deliveries with small vehicles only; 4) deliveries 
with large vehicles; 5) deliveries with tractor trailers; 6) size of canopy, 
so, each situation should be evaluated separately.
Is this any different then a loading dock? The dock (inside or out) doesn't 
always have a fuel load, but if the fire starts when there are pallets of 
combustibles on the dock how should it be protected?

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Irwin mailto:jir...@quickresponsefl.com>>; 
Aaron Peck mailto:ap...@quickresponsefl.com>>; 
Andrew Baldwin 
mailto:abald...@quickresponsefl.com>>; Roberto 
Alvarez mailto:ralva...@quickresponsefl.com>>
Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what 
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he 
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as 
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long 
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be 
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for 
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a 
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any other 
 type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are you going 
to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I 
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to respond 
what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for extra 
hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an 
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West 
Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor 

Re: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[John Irwin via Sprinklerforum]

Scott, I can appreciate all of that, but Florida has a state fire code. And we 
as life safety professionals (contractors or AHJs) don't get to debate and 
write code for each job. We're talking about a regular old covered drive 
through. Not a dock meant for loading. It's a porte cochere. And parking is 
temporary.

John Irwin

Director Of Construction
Quick Response Fire Protection
727-282-9243

Typed on tiny keys, just for you. Please forgive spelling errors, typographical 
transgressions and grammatical gaffs.


From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 2:04:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck 
; Andrew Baldwin ; 
Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

I can't wait to hear what John and Kevin have to say.
It seems that if the sprinkler system understands the vehicle parked under the 
canopy is only there temporarily then it isn't a problem. However, if the 
sprinkler system doesn't understand the vehicle is parked temporarily and a 
fire starts (that can and does happen), that can spread to the building (which 
can and does happen), then the sprinkler system has to know how to control that 
fire, right?
There could certainly be variables 1 - structure construction; 2 - use for 
autos and people only; 3) deliveries with small vehicles only; 4) deliveries 
with large vehicles; 5) deliveries with tractor trailers; 6) size of canopy, 
so, each situation should be evaluated separately.
Is this any different then a loading dock? The dock (inside or out) doesn't 
always have a fuel load, but if the fire starts when there are pallets of 
combustibles on the dock how should it be protected?

Scott

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck 
; Andrew Baldwin ; 
Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what 
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he 
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as 
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long 
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be 
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for 
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a 
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any other 
 type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are you going 
to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I 
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to respond 
what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for extra 
hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an 
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West 
Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

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RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum]

I can't wait to hear what John and Kevin have to say.
It seems that if the sprinkler system understands the vehicle parked under the 
canopy is only there temporarily then it isn't a problem. However, if the 
sprinkler system doesn't understand the vehicle is parked temporarily and a 
fire starts (that can and does happen), that can spread to the building (which 
can and does happen), then the sprinkler system has to know how to control that 
fire, right?
There could certainly be variables 1 - structure construction; 2 - use for 
autos and people only; 3) deliveries with small vehicles only; 4) deliveries 
with large vehicles; 5) deliveries with tractor trailers; 6) size of canopy, 
so, each situation should be evaluated separately.
Is this any different then a loading dock? The dock (inside or out) doesn't 
always have a fuel load, but if the fire starts when there are pallets of 
combustibles on the dock how should it be protected?

Scott
 
Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck 
; Andrew Baldwin ; 
Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what 
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he 
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as 
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long 
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be 
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for 
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a 
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any other 
 type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are you going 
to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I 
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to respond 
what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for extra 
hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an 
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West 
Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

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RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[Bruce Hermanson via Sprinklerforum]

Might want to rethink the truck full of fire works comment. Save it for the
steering wheel when you are driving home.
Appendix A.8.15.7.2 and A.8.15.7.5 NFPA 13 2013 Edition (yes Michigan is
really moving on getting current) 
I feel explains it pretty well.
Bruce

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Taylor Schumacher via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 1:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Taylor Schumacher 
Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

AHJ's get really fun in a hurry when arguing semantics. Point this
individual to a dictionary which will define temporary as "lasting for only
a limited period of time; not permanent." If permanent parking is meant to
assume parked for the night, it would be a REASONABLE assumption that a
delivery driver would only ever be parked in a temporary fashion, not
permanently.

I think the term temporary was chosen in the standard for the sole reason of
it not having a definite time. Otherwise it would have to be enforced and
monitored.

I have found that in situations like this, the only resolution is to bug the
awesome people over at AFSA Technical Services for an informal
interpretation.

Taylor Schumacher 



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck
; Andrew Baldwin ;
Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any
other  type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are
you going to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for
temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to
respond what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for
extra hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West
Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

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RE: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[Taylor Schumacher via Sprinklerforum]

AHJ's get really fun in a hurry when arguing semantics. Point this individual 
to a dictionary which will define temporary as "lasting for only a limited 
period of time; not permanent." If permanent parking is meant to assume parked 
for the night, it would be a REASONABLE assumption that a delivery driver would 
only ever be parked in a temporary fashion, not permanently.

I think the term temporary was chosen in the standard for the sole reason of it 
not having a definite time. Otherwise it would have to be enforced and 
monitored.

I have found that in situations like this, the only resolution is to bug the 
awesome people over at AFSA Technical Services for an informal interpretation.

Taylor Schumacher 



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Irwin via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2021 12:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Irwin ; Aaron Peck 
; Andrew Baldwin ; 
Roberto Alvarez 
Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what 
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he 
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as 
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long 
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be 
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for 
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a 
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any other 
 type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are you going 
to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I 
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to respond 
what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for extra 
hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an 
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736 West 
Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

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NFPA 13 8.15.7.2 / 8.15.7.5 - Temporary Parking

[John Irwin via Sprinklerforum]

So I'm going 12 rounds with a local fire marshal who wants to define what 
temporary parking means, under a drive through canopy. His logic is that he 
doesn't know how long a vehicle will be parked.  His exact concerns are as 
follows: "Our answer was yes do to deliveries made and not knowing how long 
that vehicle would be sitting in that area...  delivery vehicles would be 
sitting long periods of time and the code does not provide a time table for 
temporary parking. It is my opinion that temporary parking would be of a 
taxi/lift or other type drop off service and not delivery vehicles or any other 
 type of parking. This was explained to you and your staff. How are you going 
to enforce temporary parking? What is the time frame  for temporary parking?"

I have not been able to find an unofficial code interpretation for this. I 
believe he's incorporating too many "what if" scenarios. I was going to respond 
what if a truck full of fireworks parks here? Should we protect for extra 
hazard then?

Anyone have anything to help me convince him he's wrong? Should I pursue an 
interpretation from AFSA or NFPA?

Thank you



John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection
www.quickresponsefl.com
Office: 844-9QUICKFL
Cell: 727-282-9243
Main Office: 20545 Independence Blvd. Unit G Groveland, Florida 34736
West Coast: 15201 Roosevelt Blvd., Suite 113, Clearwater, Florida 33760
East Coast:   3133 Skyway Circle, Suite 104, Melbourne, Florida 32934
24 Hour Emergency Service Available 1-844-9QUICKFL


"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Material Prices !!

[Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum]

Just a reminder to the forum that this is toeing the line on
Anti-Trust Policies. Please refrain from further comment on specific
pricing of products and proposals.

Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE
*Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5971
w: firesprinkler.org



   


*Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*

AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during
the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here*
.


On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 12:18 PM JD Gamble via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Who all is demanding an escalation clause in contracts right now?
>
> Get Outlook for iOS
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum  on
> behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:14:37 AM
> To: 321 ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
> Subject: Re: Material Prices !!
>
> Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from around
> $600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently, in
> pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating this to
> your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from the recent
> high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.
>
>
> Skyler Bilbo
> 217-819-6404 Cell
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
> > I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less than
> > half of that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel pipe,
> Iron
> > Fittings, availability?
> > On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe and
> > fittings imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can Shipping
> > containers for their use.
> > A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
> >
> >
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |  |  |
> >
> >  |
> >
> >  |
> > |
> > |  |
> > A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
> >
> > Nicolás Rivero
> >
> > The shortage of shipping containers is yet another symptom of the havoc
> > the pandemic has wrought on internationa...
> >  |
> >
> >  |
> >
> >  |
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I can't pass these cost thru to customers...we budgeted these jobs 6 or 7
> > months ago with some escalation built in...but not 150% !!
> >
> > John W. FarabeeCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
> > 561-707-5150
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 11:33:13 AM EDT, Spencer Tomlinson via
> > Sprinklerforum  wrote:
> >
> >  It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well, for
> > what used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be
> > another 3-5% coming.
> >
> > Spencer Tomlinson, PE
> > Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
> >
> >
> > Ph:  316-202-6412
> > Fax: 316-202-2346
> > Cell: 620-955-7293
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sprinklerforum  On
> > Behalf Of 321 via Sprinklerforum
> > Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:31 AM
> > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > Cc: 321 
> > Subject: Material Prices !!
> >
> > I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are
> > doing. Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch
> Line
> > Thin wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not
> > included!!
> > Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
> > ___
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> >
> >
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> > ___
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> >
> >
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> >
> > ___
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> >
> >
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> >
> ___
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>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> ___
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> 

Re: Material Prices !!

[JD Gamble via Sprinklerforum]

Who all is demanding an escalation clause in contracts right now?

Get Outlook for iOS

From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:14:37 AM
To: 321 ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
Subject: Re: Material Prices !!

Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from around
$600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently, in
pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating this to
your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from the recent
high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.


Skyler Bilbo
217-819-6404 Cell


On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less than
> half of that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel pipe, Iron
> Fittings, availability?
> On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe and
> fittings imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can Shipping
> containers for their use.
> A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
> |
> |  |
> A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
>
> Nicolás Rivero
>
> The shortage of shipping containers is yet another symptom of the havoc
> the pandemic has wrought on internationa...
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>
>
>
> I can't pass these cost thru to customers...we budgeted these jobs 6 or 7
> months ago with some escalation built in...but not 150% !!
>
> John W. FarabeeCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
> 561-707-5150
>
>
> On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 11:33:13 AM EDT, Spencer Tomlinson via
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:
>
>  It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well, for
> what used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be
> another 3-5% coming.
>
> Spencer Tomlinson, PE
> Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
>
>
> Ph:  316-202-6412
> Fax: 316-202-2346
> Cell: 620-955-7293
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of 321 via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:31 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: 321 
> Subject: Material Prices !!
>
> I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are
> doing. Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch Line
> Thin wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not
> included!!
> Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
> ___
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>
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>
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Re: Material Prices !!

[Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum]

Domestic steel prices are through the roof.  Domestic HRB went from around
$600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently, in
pretty much a straight line up.  Make sure you are communicating this to
your customers.  Wood has pretty much come back to earth from the recent
high, but steel seemingly keeps going up.


Skyler Bilbo
217-819-6404 Cell


On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:44 AM 321 via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less than
> half of that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel pipe, Iron
> Fittings, availability?
> On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe and
> fittings imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can Shipping
> containers for their use.
> A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
> |
> |  |
> A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade
>
> Nicolás Rivero
>
> The shortage of shipping containers is yet another symptom of the havoc
> the pandemic has wrought on internationa...
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>
>
>
> I can't pass these cost thru to customers...we budgeted these jobs 6 or 7
> months ago with some escalation built in...but not 150% !!
>
> John W. FarabeeCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
> 561-707-5150
>
>
> On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 11:33:13 AM EDT, Spencer Tomlinson via
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:
>
>  It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well, for
> what used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be
> another 3-5% coming.
>
> Spencer Tomlinson, PE
> Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
>
>
> Ph:  316-202-6412
> Fax: 316-202-2346
> Cell: 620-955-7293
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of 321 via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:31 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: 321 
> Subject: Material Prices !!
>
> I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are
> doing. Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch Line
> Thin wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not
> included!!
> Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
> ___
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>
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>
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>
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Re: Material Prices !!

[321 via Sprinklerforum]

I bought almost exactly the same jobs about 5 months ago for less than half of 
that!! Where is the "Choke Point" on this ? Is it steel pipe, Iron Fittings, 
availability?
On of my best vendors told me this morning that they cant get pipe and fittings 
imported because Walmart bought up all the Sea Can Shipping containers for 
their use.
A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade


| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
A shipping container shortage is snarling global trade

Nicolás Rivero

The shortage of shipping containers is yet another symptom of the havoc the 
pandemic has wrought on internationa...
 |

 |

 |




I can't pass these cost thru to customers...we budgeted these jobs 6 or 7 
months ago with some escalation built in...but not 150% !!

John W. FarabeeCertified Lower Keys Plumbing and FireKey West, Florida
561-707-5150
 

On Thursday, August 5, 2021, 11:33:13 AM EDT, Spencer Tomlinson via 
Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
 
 It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well, for what 
used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be another 3-5% 
coming.

Spencer Tomlinson, PE
Owner, Fire Protection Engineer


Ph:  316-202-6412
Fax: 316-202-2346
Cell: 620-955-7293

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of 321 via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: 321 
Subject: Material Prices !!

I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are doing. 
Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch Line Thin 
wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not included!!
Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
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RE: Material Prices !!

[Spencer Tomlinson via Sprinklerforum]

It's this way across the board - lead times are increasing as well, for what 
used to be pretty standard order items.  I hear there may still be another 3-5% 
coming.

Spencer Tomlinson, PE
Owner, Fire Protection Engineer


Ph:  316-202-6412
Fax: 316-202-2346
Cell: 620-955-7293

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of 321 via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: 321 
Subject: Material Prices !!

I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are doing. 
Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch Line Thin 
wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not included!!
Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
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Material Prices !!

[321 via Sprinklerforum]

I just received quotes on some steel fab on 2: different systems we are doing. 
Try $238.63/head for a center feed, 2 1/2" Cross Main/2" Branch Line Thin 
wall/Welded/Galvanized system !! $21,000 for 88 headsheads not included!!
Anyone else experiencing this insanity?!
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RE: Pool maintenance area

[Ed Kramer via Sprinklerforum]

I think the standard makes a distinction between large equipment with internal 
access and mechanical/equipment rooms.  Being a mechanical/equipment room, your 
answer will boil down to the ease of access and the likelihood the owner (or 
their maintenance personnel)  will use the open space for storage.  

I'm working on a small hospital that has a hydro-therapy room - very similar to 
what you describe.  In this case, maintenance access is via a trap door in the 
pool deck and steep ladder leading down to the pit.  I wouldn't expect large 
quantities of storage, but the less-than-impossible access combined with the 
open space - we're sprinklering it.

Ed K



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 7:48 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Joe Burtell ; Tyson Sutherland 

Subject: Re: Pool maintenance area

2019 9.2.2 Spaces Under Ground Floors, Exterior Docks, and Platforms or 
possibly this one.
9.2.10* Equipment Enclosures. Sprinklers shall not be required to be installed 
within electrical equipment, mechanical equipment, or air handling units not 
intended for occupancy.
It is not the intent of 9.2.10 to require sprinklers to be installed in air 
handling units (AHUs) or in similar mechanical or electrical equipment.
AHUs for large buildings and building complexes can be so large that it brings 
into question whether sprinklers should be installed inside them.
Providing sprinkler protection in such units is not practical and would not be 
overly effective based on the limited hazard present.
A.9.2.10 Equipment having access for routine maintenance should not be 
considered as intended for occupancy.
AHUs that have access panels or “man doors" are not necessarily intended for 
occupancy and should not be treated as such when applying 9.2.10. Often the 
presence of an access hatch or other means to allow for equipment maintenance 
is misconstrued as allowing occupancy of such a space.


Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended 
only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail 
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other 
information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is 
legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail 
transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the 
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, 
distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the 
information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If 
you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify 
us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission 
as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner.  Thank 
you.


On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 5:11 AM Tyson Sutherland via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Todd,
>
> I work on a job that had this same scenario. We had to put sprinklers 
> down there because it was accessible for maintenance. It was like a 
> concrete vault, and we had to core drill a hole for a feed.
>
>
> TYSON SUTHERLAND, CET
> NICET Level III Design Technician
> Ohio ASSD #8495
>
> 2900 Newpark Drive
> Barberton, OH 44203
>
> 888-857-2817 x317
> 330-600-0697 Cell
> tyson.sutherl...@comunale.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  
> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 7:56 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum 
> Cc: Fpdcdesign 
> Subject: Pool maintenance area
>
>
> BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR.
>
>
>
>
>
>   I am working on a project with a therapy pool that is recessed into 
> the floor with its own pit. There is a service area (stand up height) 
> in the pit adjacent to the pool for maintenance. The walls, ceiling 
> and floor are concrete and the pool enclosure is metal. Sprinklers in 
> the service area or no? There is no good way to feed them
>
>
>
>  Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>
> 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
>
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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> 

RE: Flexible hose head connectors on a pipe schedule system

[Sean Conlin via Sprinklerforum]

I agree with the listing requirement.

What about 9.2.1.3.3.2 (NFPA-13, 2013 ed.)?

Ceiling shall meet ASTM C 635 for the ceiling and the ceiling must be installed 
it accordance with ASTM C 636.   

Regards,

Sean W. Conlin
Demand Sprinkler Design Inc.
C: 416-317-0028
E: scon...@demandsprinklerdesign.ca

-Original Message-
From: Ron Greenman  
Sent: August 3, 2021 8:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Flexible hose head connectors on a pipe schedule system

Passed on to me from a friend.

UL IQ. Information for the category VENF - Flexible Sprinkler Hose with 
Fittings.

"These products are intended for use in hydraulically design sprinkler systems."

There's more info around it but you'll need to go see for yourself. As Steve 
said, I'm old, but what he didn't say is I'm also cranky and I don't feel like 
doing a bunch of typing. I tried to paste the section and a link but the AFSA 
rule bots wouldn't let me.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:34 PM Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I agree with JH's logic, but I am struggling with this pressure gain 
> from a
> 20 ft drop idea.  Isn't the net effect due to elevation 0 since the 
> pressure gets changed by the same amount at the riser, or wherever it 
> goes up in elevation, before it comes back down?  All that matters is 
> the source elevation and discharge elevation.  Any elevation changes 
> beyond that will net to 0, unless there are outlets discharging at 
> varying elevations, then that is another story.
>
> I still think the original argument stands, and it wouldn't matter if 
> the 1" pipe were a 20 ft vertical drop, a 20 ft horizontal armover, or 
> 20 ft of equivalent piping due to a flexdrop, the net friction loss 
> would all be the same, and I think this is the point just about everyone is 
> trying to make.
>
> I still don't want to be the one to remove the heads on the 20 ft drops.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Skyler Bilbo
> 217-819-6404 Cell
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 5:56 PM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum < 
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
> > Right, which is why I was only allowing a PSI or so as an allowance for
> > the "credit" back from hard piped drops.Apples to apples, you'll have
> > the same Pe for both a hard piped or flexible drop.
> >
> > SL
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> > sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt 
> > Grise via Sprinklerforum
> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2021 3:16 PM
> > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > Cc: Matt Grise 
> > Subject: RE: Flexible hose head connectors on a pipe schedule system
> >
> > One thought to your point -
> >
> > A 20 foot hard pipe drop has the advantage of also dropping 20 feet. 
> > You will gain a substantial amount of pressure from the elevation 
> > change that should more than overcome the flow demand of a light 
> > hazard pipe schedule standard coverage pendant.
> >
> > A 20 foot equivalent drop does not have the same hydraulic advantage.
> >
> > It seems like you should be able to use flex drops on a pipe 
> > schedule system. The ones that I have surveyed and calculated always 
> > come up with plenty of safety. That does not mean I would be ok 
> > making substantial changes to the hydraulics without a close examination at 
> > a minimum.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sprinklerforum 
> >  On Behalf Of J H 
> > via Sprinklerforum
> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2021 5:07 PM
> > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > Cc: J H 
> > Subject: Re: Flexible hose head connectors on a pipe schedule system
> >
> > I'll be devil's advocate. Pipe scheduled systems don't have limits 
> > on
> drop
> > lengths and I've seen a few scheduled warehouse systems with 30 to 40 ft.
> > roof decks with sections of office spacing below at 10 ft. with 
> > pendents feeding them. So if you can do it per the pipe scheduled 
> > method you
> should
> > be able to do it with a shorter 6 ft. flex hose with the same 
> > equivalent feet that you might find in a hard piped system.
> >
> > JH
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 11:07 AM Sean Lockyer via Sprinklerforum < 
> > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Can flexible hose head connectors (I.E. - "Flexheads") be used on 
> > > a pipe scheduled system ? Since calculations were not performed 
> > > due to it being a scheduled system, the friction loss would be 
> > > superfluous, correct ? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Sean Lockyer
> > > AIT Life Safety
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> > >
> > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2flists.firesprin
> > > kler 
> > > 

Re: Pool maintenance area

[Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum]

2019 9.2.2 Spaces Under Ground Floors, Exterior Docks, and Platforms or
possibly this one.
9.2.10* Equipment Enclosures. Sprinklers shall not be required to be
installed within electrical equipment, mechanical equipment, or air
handling units not intended for occupancy.
It is not the intent of 9.2.10 to require sprinklers to be installed in air
handling units (AHUs) or in similar mechanical or electrical equipment.
AHUs for large buildings and building complexes can be so large that it
brings into question whether sprinklers should be installed inside them.
Providing sprinkler protection in such units is not practical and would not
be overly effective based on the limited hazard present.
A.9.2.10 Equipment having access for routine maintenance should not be
considered as intended for occupancy.
AHUs that have access panels or “man doors" are not necessarily intended
for occupancy and should not be treated as such when applying 9.2.10. Often
the presence of an access hatch or other means to allow for equipment
maintenance is misconstrued as allowing occupancy of such a space.


Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
saving it in any manner.  Thank you.


On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 5:11 AM Tyson Sutherland via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Todd,
>
> I work on a job that had this same scenario. We had to put sprinklers down
> there because it was accessible for maintenance. It was like a concrete
> vault, and we had to core drill a hole for a feed.
>
>
> TYSON SUTHERLAND, CET
> NICET Level III Design Technician
> Ohio ASSD #8495
>
> 2900 Newpark Drive
> Barberton, OH 44203
>
> 888-857-2817 x317
> 330-600-0697 Cell
> tyson.sutherl...@comunale.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 7:56 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum 
> Cc: Fpdcdesign 
> Subject: Pool maintenance area
>
>
> BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR.
>
>
>
>
>
>   I am working on a project with a therapy pool that is recessed into the
> floor with its own pit. There is a service area (stand up height) in the
> pit adjacent to the pool for maintenance. The walls, ceiling and floor are
> concrete and the pool enclosure is metal. Sprinklers in the service area or
> no? There is no good way to feed them
>
>
>
>  Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>
> 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
>
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org__;!!FaxH778!NIgYE1Vt-fpoUIOn-Fkc8jaJAKd4isi2kNKARrKFBGFYBaIP1X0S_02W-rH1UlP6UcWTtaM$
>
> This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain
> confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
> confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If
> you receive this message in error, please  immediately delete it and all
> copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the
> sender.  You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute,
> print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended
> recipient.
> ___
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>
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>
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RE: Pool maintenance area

[Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum]

Been there done that.
Yes it needs corrosion proof sprinklers, pipe, fittings, and hangers.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 6:56 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Pool maintenance area

 
 

  I am working on a project with a therapy pool that is recessed into the floor 
with its own pit. There is a service area (stand up height) in the pit adjacent 
to the pool for maintenance. The walls, ceiling and floor are concrete and the 
pool enclosure is metal. Sprinklers in the service area or no? There is no good 
way to feed them
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
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RE: Pool maintenance area

[Tyson Sutherland via Sprinklerforum]

Todd,

I work on a job that had this same scenario. We had to put sprinklers down 
there because it was accessible for maintenance. It was like a concrete vault, 
and we had to core drill a hole for a feed. 


TYSON SUTHERLAND, CET
NICET Level III Design Technician
Ohio ASSD #8495

2900 Newpark Drive
Barberton, OH 44203

888-857-2817 x317
330-600-0697 Cell
tyson.sutherl...@comunale.com

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 7:56 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Pool maintenance area

 
BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR. 
 

 
 

  I am working on a project with a therapy pool that is recessed into the floor 
with its own pit. There is a service area (stand up height) in the pit adjacent 
to the pool for maintenance. The walls, ceiling and floor are concrete and the 
pool enclosure is metal. Sprinklers in the service area or no? There is no good 
way to feed them
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
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This message is for the named person's use only.  It may contain confidential, 
proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege 
is waived or lost by any mistransmission.  If you receive this message in 
error, please  immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, 
destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender.  You must not, directly or 
indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message 
if you are not the intended recipient.
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