Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 07:32:18AM -0400, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> an other interesting reading :
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card

I love this article very much.  Unhelpful, bossy blowhards should
experience exactly these emotions.  My favorite part was the accusation
of "cancel culture," which I have learned is Boomer code for
"accountability."  They really hate that shit!

If 9front has constructed a culture where someone who calls themselves
"Innovator Harnessing the Power of Open Source: Transforming Businesses,
Empowering Solutions" does not feel welcome, then I am profoundly
satsified with that culture, and commend everyone involved in its
creation.

Anyway, just for the record, nobody in the 9front project has any ill
will toward 9legacy.  Technical concerns like p9sk1, yes, but everyone
agrees there should be *more* Plan 9 out there, not less.  We keep
suggesting that people fork 9front as well, and make 9front Suit And Tie
Edition, Empowering Harnessed Transformative Innovations, with all of
the technical goodies and none of the humor or fun, but nobody seems to
have the drive to make that happen.

If anyone wants help bootstrapping such a project, please let me know
and I'll help however I can.  The existence of something like that might
help deflect all the unfunded mandates people keep trying to demand of
the 9front project, and create a nice home for the sorts of people whose
primary qualifications are that they like to watch and they've been
watching for decades.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 02:22:01PM +, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
> The 2nd draft is out. I've made some corrections as mentioned by others, and 
> I have added those who have helped to the acknowledgements. This draft is 
> only for those that are interested in the content. If you are not interested 
> please disregard. I confirmed the model was trained on 9front resources, 
> including git history.
> 
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/juh72ktckqt2mpdaeebljo7mve2q/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf

This document is full of lies, and I don't think you trained a model at
all.  I'd wager you only applied an inference step, and from an
inexpensive model at that.  Your claim that you "confirmed the model was
trained" just tells me you know as little about large-language models as
you do about Plan 9:  you're the wrong person for this job.

This is not a meaningful contribution to the literature.  Nobody will be
helped by this.  

Samuel Reader was an American hero who fought with John Brown.  If you
share a name with such a famous writer, maybe you can take inspiration
from him and anctually try to write something.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the
> exact person you're responding to :-)
> 
> It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent.

When else has it happened?  Do I always do it?  Are there firmware
differences? Have you collected logs on the matter?  I just don't think
you have the data to back up this persistence claim.

I'm generally pretty direct when I want to insult someone.  It's not
like there are meaningful consequences.  If you feel like you were
subject to the category of people I was describing, there's not much I
can do about that, I guess.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
> called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing
> them off as "emotional".

What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to parse?

What other entire clauses in my email messages have you failed to parse?
This is a concerning development.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the
> complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What
> degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the
> consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those
> bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and
> maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you
> constantly bother with them.

Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who
just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling
his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and "running
great" are mutually exclusive.  

> It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a code-centric
> community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's
> problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be
> coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data
> backs that up?

It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously!  If that
had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front
probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil.  But
your "point to the code" demand is not a great look.  That *is* more
like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports.  In a way, deleting
Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has
stopped corrupting my data for sure.  So there's the code causing the
problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue.  Nobody
owes you a scientific analysis.  

But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front
tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive
timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have.

> So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this list.
> Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or
> "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's be
> prescriptive, instead.

No, not "anything."  Specifically this Fossil nonsense.  I don't know
why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not
really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward
problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that
weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually
understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not
interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to
delete the code.  

Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this.  Anyone who
wants Fossil can install it.  If you want a 'canonical' Fossil, upload
it somewhere and canonize it.  Problem solved.

As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a 
commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pretty
gross.  We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will never
give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and I
don't understand why it matters at all.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their
removal. 

You've been on this list a while.  You should remember therefore that   
Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*.
Specifically, people kept reporting that Fossil had beshit their data,  
and other people deemed that a skill issue and insisted Fossil was fine.
As bug fixes trickled out, Fossil continued to be fine, and people's
data kept getting corrupted.  Maybe Fossil is fixed now!  Maybe it
isn't!  It's not worth finding out, and the situation was never helped  
by the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" crowd refusing to take bug
reports -- and actively attacking bug reporters.

So, the backstory of Fossil on 9fans is what led to it getting deleted.
Asking for 'evidence' is just more of the same gaslighting that happened
on this very list.

> How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested?
etc.
  
Not how it works.  The burden of support is on the distributor.  Part of
forking software is, when it breaks, people come knocking on your 
door/mailing list/ircnet complaining that "your" software ate their 
computer.  We *knew* Fossil was unreliable, so continuing to ship it in
that state was idiotic.  Removing it was an act of self-defense and/or  
housekeeping, depending on how militant you like your metaphors.
   
Meanwhile, since the defossilization of 9front, Fossil itself continued
to receive attention.  It sounds like the sp9sss dropped the ball on
coordinating some of that, but we are assured that Fossil is great now.
The problem is: we were assured Fossil was great then, too, especially  
when it wasn't.  Therefore it is the burden of the Chamber of Fossil
Fraternity Et Exuberance to prove that it is stable, and test it to such
a degree that it's worth considering again.  The rest of us are tired of
driving in that circle.
   
You can even store it on our sources server, or put the code on our git9
repo host.   We don't hate Fossil users.  We just don't want to take   
responsibility for it.
   
khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 02:18:54AM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> You really should read the GPL. Your changes were included with GPL'ed code 
> even in the same file and not distributed as independent patches so the 
> modified work as a whole got infected by the GPL license.

This is explicitly allowed by the GPL as explained by the FSF.  [1] But
that's moot, since we never shipped a GPL upstream.  We went from LPL,
sat out the GPL, and switched to MIT directly.  See previous email for
revision history.

khm

1 - https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesCompatMean

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 02:04:24AM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> 
> There are many companies who double license code. As the owners of such code 
> they are free to do this. Users can't relicense code as they please 
> especially not GPL licensed code.

At no point did we 'relicense' anything.  We have never been in control
of the license terms of Labs-provided code.  The code we write, we
licensed MIT.  We then released both as a mixture; this is explicitly
allowed under the GPL (the FSF calls MIT the "expat" license, see [1]
for their declaration that it is compatible) and also under Lucent
Public License Section 3 A.   We comply with LPL section 3 C by
providing complete revision history in a source control system; anyone
may inspect it to identify the originator of any of the code.

Hope this helps,
khm

1 - https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#Expat

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 01:54:27AM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 


Happily.  Here's the original revision of /lib/legal/NOTICE: 
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/944787349e93/lib/legal/NOTICE

> The Plan 9 software is provided under the terms of the
> Lucent Public License, Version 1.02, reproduced in the
> file /lib/legal/lpl, with the following notable exceptions:

a later revision, specifying the license for 9front-originated code, and
adding exceptions for Python and Mercurial:

http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/84ba3046886d/lib/legal/NOTICE
> Plan 9 from Bell Labs is provided under the terms of the Lucent Public 
> License,
> Version 1.02, reproduced in the file /lib/legal/lpl.
> 
> Any additions or changes (as recorded in Mercurial history) made by 9front 
> are provided
> under the terms of the MIT License, reproduced in the file /lib/legal/mit, 
> unless
> otherwise indicated.
>
> The following exceptions apply:

When the Labs released the code under GPL, it was still *also* available
under the Lucent Public License 1.02.  The software was, at that point,
dual-licensed under LPL and GPL.  We didn't see any benefit from
acknowledging this, since the previous license was still valid and
compatible with our needs.

Once the MIT-licensed release was made available, we rebased on that:

http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/87d8e72ffb5c/lib/legal/NOTICE
> Plan 9 from Bell Labs is provided under the terms of the MIT license,
> reproduced in the file /lib/legal/mit.
> 
> Any additions or changes (as recorded in Mercurial history) made by 9front
> are also provided under the same MIT License, unless otherwise
> indicated.

The only material change since then was moving from Mercurial to Git as
source control, at which time we deleted Python and Mercurial from the
tree, and removed the relevant clauses from /lib/legal/NOTICE.

Third-party software not mentioned in the NOTICE file, but covered by
non-MIT licenses, has always explicitly been identified as having their
special cases addressed in-tree:

> Other, less notable exceptions are marked in the file tree with
> COPYING, COPYRIGHT, or LICENSE files.

That practice predates 9front.

Hope this clears up the history.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:52:29PM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> 
> You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MIT 
> license long before Nokia as the owner of it decided to do so. You did
> that at a time when plan9 was placed under GPL. 

You have apparently not read our licensing document at
/lib/legal/NOTICE, which explicitly names the terms of the original Plan
9 code, and assigns the MIT license only to changes produced by 9front.

As the labs-provided code has been made available under different
licenses, we have updated this to reflect the changes, from Lucent
Public License, through the GPL relicense, and then the MIT license.
At all times we've complied with the distribution requirements of all
applicable licenses.

> The first thing such people have to check is the way you handle licenses. 

Yes, and our handling of them has been impeccable, with a wonderful end
state where all of the Plan 9 code, both from the Labs and from 9front,
can live happily ever after under the same license thanks to a lot of
work from people who cared.

One by one we're getting rid of the third-party software -- I
particularly look forward to the day we can finally ditch Ghostscript --
but in the meantime these accusations of license violations are
misinformed and have no basis in reality.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 11:46:59AM +0930, clinton wrote:
> I await the scorching flames for my great impudence of interjecting into a
> vociferous discussion with such a pragmatic tangent!

If you don't intend to have anything hanging out with a direct internet
connection, just use whatever looks cool and is supported by the
hardware you have at hand.  

If your installation is going to be subject to transmitting packets
across the internet, 9front has better crypto.  As has been mentioned
recently in this list, porting that crypto back to 9legacy may be a fun
way to get your hands dirty, if you're into that sort of thing.

Either way you're not really missing anything by picking one to play
with, and if you feel like you are, it will still be there when you feel
like trying the other one out.

Reading all the stuff in /sys/doc is a great way to start learning on
either distribution.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 09:46:12PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> 
> So what is it, exactly, that people want?

The only people who feel like there's some conflict to resolve are
people who do not use the software and have nothing to offer except for
social commentary. This "us vs them" shit is only of interest to people
who are unaware that the argument stopped happening years ago.  "What
people want" is in general to feel like they're helping, but these days
it's a rare 9fan whose head is inserted so deep that middle management 
seems like the helping hand we all need.

Everyone in the Plan 9 world has what they want, at this point, except
maybe unlimited free time to pursue the to-do list.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 09:21:20AM +0900, vester.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> unclear who exactly is responsible.  Typically, a team of two or more 
> individuals would focus on these deliverables.   

nobody is "responsible" and there are no "deliverables"

the people who covet bureaucracy have one to play with.  if you are one
of them, I suggest you visit plan9foundation.org and get involved with
it.

otherwise, there are no problems here to fix, all this shit you're
talking about is in your head and has nothing to do with us.

please don't respond to this message.

khm

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Re: [9fans] one weird trick to break p9sk1 ?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 02:16:47PM +0100, Richard Miller wrote:
> 
> That's quadrillions of years. Not what most people would call "trivial".
> And that's generously assuming the implementation of meet-in-the-middle
> is zero cost. Without meet-in-the-middle, we're looking at a 168-bit
> keyspace and an even more preposterous number of years.

Meanwhile, sweet32 exists, all this shit has already been prosecuted on
other venues, and NIST shitcanned 3DES entirely last year.  Not
deprecated.  Disallowed.  Why?  Because no matter how many numbers you
paste into an email, it costs thirty bucks to crack it on someone else's
ASIC farm.  Pretending that getting access to $100k hash-cracking arrays
is any more inconvenient than Uber Eats is straight-up disingenuous.

It is extremely gross to be defending 3DES in 2024.  You should know
better.  I don't particularly care if 9legacy adopts dp9ik, but there
are people who will come reading this list archive down the road, and
they'll be under the assumption that your arguments are in good faith.
I hope they are not, because this crap is at best irresponsible.
Occam's razor does not advocate ignoring the entire standardized best
practices of the industry because you have emotional attachments to
broken software and have used a pocket calculator to convince yourself
you know better than everyone else on Earth.

Advocating a switch to 3DES because it's backward-compatible with DES if
you use it wrong is magnificent trolling, or depressing malpractice,
depending on your intent.  I can't ever know that, so I'll just state
for posterity:  kids, don't do this.  It's a terrible plan.


Do better,
khm

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Re: [9fans] How to PXE boot with "two" DHCP servers on one network

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 04:52:29PM +0100, Marco Feichtinger wrote:
> My router at home also serves as the DHCP server for the network.
> 
> I have a plan9 file server and now want to pxe boot a second machine from it.
> On the file server I have 'ip/dhcpd -sS' running, since it also serves bootp 
> requests.
> 
> Now when i pxe boot the second machine, it loads 9boot, but when searching 
> for the 
> /cfg/pxe/ file, it uses the ip address of my router.
> 
> Boot Message:
> pxe on ether0 .
> (!69): /cfg/pxe/ 
> .T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.Ttftpread1st: failed to connect to server (!69)
> 
> How can I pxe boot other machines, without my file server acting as dhcp 
> server for the whole network?

don't run two dhcp servers.  turn off the one on your fileserver and
configure your router to pass next-server:  to clients
that should pxe boot from the fileserver.  it just needs to support
tftp.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Re: broken link in cat-v

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 06:04:33PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> Thanks, but I don't know who owns that site these dayse. I'll forward to
> the 9fans mailing list.
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 6:20 AM Douglas McIlroy <
> douglas.mcil...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> > The link to plan 9 from outer space in sam.cat-v is wrong. I found a good
> > link in wikipedia.
> >

sl runs cat-v.org these days.  I'd recommend replacing the link to
plan9.us with a link to https://9fans.github.io/plan9port/

I don't see a link to Plan 9 from Outer Space, so I reckon Doug was
referring to the p9p link.

khmOuter Space, so I reckon Doug was referring to the p9p link.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote:
> I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it.

This tracks.  Thanks for your insight.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community
> when there's no unified vision to align with.

We all like Plan 9.  Identify the people who like the same things about
Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them.  It might be
easier than taking on the whole community simultaneously.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:49:33PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> I use it. It’s also my advice. It wasn’t “advice” from Rob, it was a design 
> choice. There’s more value in that than “advice”. 

It's a design choice nobody can implement, because it presumes that the
starting point is correct enough that you never have to break
compatibility.  It's a wonderful design choice to make, for instance,
regarding a system you never intend to touch again.

> Not interested in your theoretical discussions or trolling. Thanks.

You talk about receiving patches from the foundation but *I'm* the one
with theoretical discussions or trolling?

Wild.

khm

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Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 08:53:30PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote:
> Tbf I took it as genuine. 
> 
> One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases 
> should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the 
> network. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended. 

might want to focus on advice from people who use plan 9, instead

> I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer 
> the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive 
> patches through them. 

what is weird about forking unmaintained software?

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Foundation is a 501(c)(3)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 07:22:01PM -0800, Anthony Sorace wrote:
>Since announcing the Plan 9 Foundation, folks have asked how they can
>support our work. We’ve had that “on hold” until we had a bunch of
>organizational things sorted. We’re very pleased to say that the last big
>one of those is now completed: the Plan 9 Foundation has been recognized
>as a 501(c)(3) organization by the IRS.
>If you’re a U.S. taxpayer, donations to the Foundation are now tax
>deductible. This also lets us participate in a lot of other things,
>perhaps most notably employer matching programs. If you work at a company
>with such a program, you can now multiply your donation. 
>The easiest way to make a donation is via credit/debit card here:
>https://www.zeffy.com/donation-form/25fe42cb-e841-497d-94b0-c05a3a5bb153
>Zeffy is a credit card processor that only works with non-profits and
>passes through your entire donation amount (they’ll ask you for an
>optional “tip” to fund their operations).
>If you’d like to make a donation in another way, more information can be
>found on the Foundation’s page for donations:
>http://plan9foundation.org/donate.html
>On behalf of the board, thanks to everyone who’s expressed interest for
>your patience in getting to this point.
>Anthony Sorace,
>Treasurer
>9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options
>Permalink

Congrats on getting this done.  It's not an easy thing and the work that
went into it is appreciated.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Problem with outputing from kernel

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Oct 04, 2023 at 07:18:23AM -0400, dusan3...@gmail.com wrote:
> Also I was doing with tail -f /dev/kmesg in the background and without that 
> /dev/kmesg loses the start of output up to some random moment where it shows 
> it. Could the problem be that i have too many outputs?

try tail +0f /dev/kmesg

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 12:32:55PM +, G B via 9fans wrote:
>  Windows and Linux began on single-core single processor machines. 
> Multiprocessor had been around for some time--IBM's System 360 began using 
> multi-processors in 1968--but not for x86. Plan 9 first edition came out in 
> 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released with 
> IBM's Power 4 in 2001. 
> I can see why someone would ask if Plan 9 supports multicore. Plan 9 3rd 
> edition was released in 2000 and 4th edition was released in 2002. In each 
> case, going from single core-single processor to multiprocessor and then from 
> multiprocessor to multicore would require changes in the operating system to 
> recognize the extra processors and then the cores.

Symmetric multiprocessing was available in 1992, even on x86
machines.  Multics, tops-10, and various unixes all supported it by then.
Once you have shared-memory SMP there's little difference between
multiprocessor and multicore.  Plan 9's implementation is imo cleaner
than most of what came before, but by 1992 there was a lot of
multiprocessing going on in the world.

khm

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Re: [9fans] How do I build from source on linux?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 01:46:17PM -0400, dusan3...@gmail.com wrote:
> Research

Researching what?  "The effects of using build systems I don't like: an
empirical approach"

khm

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Re: [9fans] iwp9: call for papers

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Feb 02, 2023 at 02:06:41PM -0500, Marshall Conover wrote:
> 
> I see in the "important dates" the "Camera-ready version" for March 13th,
> but I'm not sure what that refers to.
> 

"Camera-ready" is a publishing term which means the document is fully
typeset and ready to be printed.  It dates from the days of photo-offset
printing, where you'd photograph a document and make printing plates
from the film negative.

khm

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Re: [9fans] discord invite link (was: sirjofri's Annual Christmas (and New-Year) Post)

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 12:02:08PM +0900, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> 
> Dr. Strangedev or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love GitHub
> 
> --Vic

You should switch to GMail.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Trouble compiling "Hello, world"

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Aug 02, 2022 at 05:38:39AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> It's a shame that the SDF wiki
> (https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=vps_-_plan_9_9front) returns a
> missing page.

Looks like it just got moved:
https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=plan_9_9front

khm

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Re: [9fans] 9front, git and mercurial.

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:12:47PM -0400, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
> Related question I can't seem to track down an answer to:
> 
> I have a 9front cluster which was set up back when Mercurial was used, 
> so that is what sysupdate is looking for.
> 
> I finally realized that I am no longer seeing updates because 9front 
> switched to git.
> 
> How does one go about upgrading an existing 9front install to pull 
> updates from git instead of hg?

sysupdate should have seamlessly moved you to git.  what mercurial
revision is your stuff currently running?  

this will be a longish debugging session so for the rest of it we should
probably move to the 9front mailing list, since 9fans at large might not
appreciate the traffic.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 12:00:02AM +, Stuart Morrow wrote:
> 
> I'm aware. I meant the intended use by the people who designed it. I
> wouldn't call a number pad a pointing device just because it can be
> used as one.
> 

Apologies to Ted Selker, but it's a poor tool that only functions in
accordance with its designer's intent.  I wouldn't call a number pad a
pointing device either, but I see no need for a Cardassian "there are
two buttons" reality-denial session for a pointing device that clearly
has three.

To update my previous reply on this thread, the left mouse button of my
LTRAC trackball suffered from a failed microswitch.  While shopping
around for replacement parts I stumbled across a vendor that carries
several three-or-more button pointing devices.  Content warning for the
faint of heart:  the following page refers to non-mice as 'mouse
products.'  https://www.fentek-ind.com/ergmouse.htm

And for the record, P.I. Engineering will not sell spare parts for the
LTRAC units, but will send you links to Digikey pages to order your own.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:09:24PM +, Stuart Morrow wrote:
> On 01/02/2022, Ben Hancock  wrote:
> > as well but have yet to become adept at the trackpoint. Do you find
> > you're able to sweep lines as easily using it in acme as with a physical
> > mouse?
> 
> A trackpoint isn't a real three-button mouse by Acme's standards. "A
> real three-button mouse" is something that supports one-to-one
> finger-to-button. A trackpoint is a two-button mouse with an
> additional scroll button. It's designed for Windows and OS/2.

That scroll button nonsense is a function of the Windows driver. On all
Thinkpads the buttons present as a normal three-button mouse, with
left, middle, and right-click.  Using a better operating system, or
failing to install the Trackpoint drivers, leads to normal
functionality.  

This is also true of trackpoint-laden keyboards with the sole exception 
of the Lenovo "ThinkPad Compact Keyboard with Trackpoint" family of
USB/Bluetooth models, and thanks to aiju a firmware fix is available to
repair some of those.

> Plus, trackpoint users will often accidentally type 'u', which on Plan
> 9 means you lose what's in your snarf buffer.

I have never seen a trackpoint user accidentally type 'u', and this is
coming from someone who has used trackpoints as their primary pointing
device from the late 1990s until about six months ago.  How exactly did
you come to this conclusion?  I wonder if this is unique to a particular
model?  I have at least one of every IBM, Lexmark, or Dolch produced
trackpoint keyboard, and I'd love to try to reproduce.


khm

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote:
> 
> In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them?  ;)
> 

In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining
characteristic of a student

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 08:14:44PM +1300, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com wrote:
> > small ones seem to me like a pain to point, and the large ones look
> > like hard to make chords with the big ball in the middle. Could you
> > share your experience?
> 
> I use a Kensington Expert which I guess falls into the big
> ball in the middle category.  Honestly, most of the time I
> click/chord with my left hand on the thinkpad's trackpad
> buttons while rolling the ball with my right hand, but
> chording with the trackball buttons is also fine.  The
> scrollwheel thing is pretty nice too.

My pointing device on the desktop is an L-TRAC trackball, currently sold
by xkeys.com.  It's definitely in the 'big ball in the middle' category
but the buttons are mostly huge enough to make up for it -- I've never
found myself straining to reach anything, but I will admit the extension
ports allowing more buttons to be scattered around the desktop is a nice
bonus.  I don't recommend the LED-lit models, as they're brighter than
the goddamn sun, and trackball itself is translucent so it just shines
like a beacon.  I replaced my ball with a 9-ball to mitigate the glare.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 03:47:48PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The
> label reads
> 
> 31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA
> 
> And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally)
> 3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all
> labeled IBM.
> 
> -rob

Lenovo wasn't as much of a stickler for nomenclature as IBM; I ran into
all kinds of label variants -- when I worked at IBM I used to snag these
when I could.  They were also labeled 'ThinkPlus Optical Mouse' for a
while, when bundled with a computer.  Useful information for keeping
them alive can be found here:  http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/scrollpoint.htm

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
> with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
> Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.

I should specify:  the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two
buttons and a round pointing device in between.  The Scrollpoint II is
the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick
behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and
mechanical configurations.  The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also
available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version
is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great.

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 07:48:15PM -0800, Ben Hancock wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good 
> mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations 
> aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be 
> willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth 
> of options that have a true middle button these days.
> 
> I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs 
> that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it 
> feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently 
> tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews 
> that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice 
> mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> - Ben

Many of us have had success with the Contour mice, both their
soon-discontinued 'Contour' model, available in various sizes, and their
'Unimouse' adjustable model.  HP model DY651A is a cheaper option,
but it's getting hard to find.  The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.

For a portable option, Lenovo sells a convertible 'Yoga' series of
wireless mice, which have two mechanical buttons and a touchpad-style
scrolling section in between; on all of these that I've tested, tapping
the scroll panel sends a middle click, and they support tap-and-hold as
you would expect.  I haven't tested some of the newer ones, and there's
always the danger some product manager got 'creative' instead of just
selling a useful product.

The Evoluent VerticalMouse series has three mechanical buttons plus a
scroll wheel between buttons 1 and 2.

Finally, the Logitech G series of gaming mice don't have separate middle
click -- they use the wheel for that -- but they frequently have other
buttons which can be configured to serve as button 2, and the
configuration software writes this setting to the device, so you don't
need weird driver support when you plug it into a real computer.

khm

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:14:25PM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> Thanks for your hint ori,
> 
> After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic 
> commands (libs) :
> 
> Xen (9f)
> diff (9f,l9)
> patch (9f, l9)
> ghostscript (9f, l9)
> mp3dec (9f, l9)
> lzip (l9)
> 
> 9f ... 9font
> l9 ... legacy9
> 
> I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous 
> regarding ... derived from based on ... 

None of these prohibit redistribution.  Feel free to delete them from
your copy.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 06:55:27PM +0100, Alexandr Babic wrote:
> >> I agree.  This mailing list is turning out to be a bit too fucking bizarro 
> >> for my taste.
> > If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  Nobody owes you a
> > safe space, snowflake.
> 
> khm, you are using snowflake here in wrong context :-(
> 
> first letter from original author was snowflakish,
> there's no need to use words like "not cool political views, support 
> oppression, amazing and full of rainbow love"
> in technical forum.
> 
> document "intro to OS abstractions" is great and  i don't what are political 
> views of author.
> so tell me who is a snowflake now :-D

definitely you.  Someone wants to write a book about a technical topic,
and all you and that other idiot can talk about are the motivations,
because you are intellectually incapable of contributing to technical
work.  

If you don't want to or are incapable of helping with the book, just
archive/delete the email and move on, instead of pissing and moaning
about the rest.

I swear, you snowflakes are the most entitled people.  Not only does
everyone have to talk about what YOU want to talk about, but they cannot
deviate from the topic EVEN SLIGHTLY or you start cramping up.  Get a
life.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 05:38:19AM -0700, Duke Normandin wrote:
> 
> 
> >> On 1/24/22, Alexandr Babic  wrote:
> >> 
> >> hello.
> >> 
> >> please don't put any politics here, everyone has own political opinion, but
> >> discuss it elsewhere.
> >> sub-word "trans" should be used only inside "transpiler" word when talking
> >> about computers :-) :-)
> >> 
> >> thanx, a.b.
> 
> I agree.  This mailing list is turning out to be a bit too fucking bizarro 
> for my taste. 
> 

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  Nobody owes you a
safe space, snowflake.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 01:54:02PM -0500, Antonio Barrones wrote:
> Linux distros are not only "Linux", they are GNU/Linux.  Linux is only the 
> kernel of a GNU/Linux system (a distro). Android is not a distro because they 
> don't have GNU, but Android is "Linux" because it has Linux as kernel. 

Please keep FSF FUD off this list.  Alpine is a Linux distro and doesn't
rely on GNU.  There are, and always have been, several such.  Copyright
cultists riding on coattails notwithstanding, there isn't much point in
belaboring such terminology, since Plan 9 is not typically distributed
in modular packages, but as an integrated system, and GNU cruft doesn't
readily build on it anyway.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 12:36:19AM +0100, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir wrote:
> 
> I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around
> 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still
> being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on.
> There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people
> who use 9front: http://only9fans.com
> Whether some "secret community" decides to "accept" (or not) 9front as
> "official" doesn't matter.
> 

And part of the reason it doesn't matter is that there ARE active users
of non-9front Plan 9, and they all have reasons (some unique, some
shared) to do things that way, and when good code shows up, everyone
benefits, no matter which flavor of Plan 9 they wrote it for.
Regardless of other interplay, that shared interest is what makes up a
community, and there doesn't need to be complete uniformity of thought
for that to be both real and valuable.

khm

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Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 02:15:00PM +0300, Demetrius Iatrakis wrote:
> This is a preview of OAuth2 support in factotum, as part of this year's GSoC:
> https://github.com/Mitsos101/plan9front/pull/1
> 
> Installation, on 9front:
> 
> git/clone https://github.com/Mitsos101/plan9front plan9front-oauth
> cd plan9front-oauth
> git/branch oauth
> bind sys/include /sys/include
> @{cd sys/src/libauth && mk install}
> @{cd sys/src/cmd/auth && mk install}
> @{cd sys/src/cmd/webfs && mk install}

Works on my machine!  Have you been using it in the wild at all?  I'm
just testing it against a local set of toy programs, but it's working.

Thanks for working on this!

khm

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Re: [9fans] the #cat-v channel has moved to oftc

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 02:54:22PM -0400, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:
> 
> This reminds me: is the #plan9 channel on oftc the new home of #plan9?
> 

The topic in #plan9 on oftc directs users to libera, and has done since
Freenode began to implode.  If there's some way I can make this more 
clear, please let me know.


khm

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Re: [9fans] 9front, git and mercurial.

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 12:48:35PM -0500, Tony Mendoza wrote:
> Quick question (or maybe not), but how are these being hosted?   Is this done 
> on a cloud provider vm platform?   Or is this being done in a traditional DC 
> using real hardware?
> 
> Just curious to know how this is being done because I would like to do 
> something similar. 
> 
> Cheers!

9front's stuff is hosted on a variety of platforms.  Some of it,
including the code.9front.org repo, consists of VMs that I host on
colocated hardware.  git.9front.org is elsewhere at the moment, and I'm
in the middle of deploying faster hardware to hopefully provide a
longer-term home to more of the services.  Other pieces live in
commercial VM providers like vultr, linode, ramnode, and so forth.  A
few of these providers either offer 9front as a deployment option or
allow you to upload your own iso for provisioning.

khm

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Re: [9fans] recover(4) go rewrite

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 09:20:23PM +0200, k...@a-b.xyz wrote:
> >  I needed recover(4) on windows, I rewrote most if it in go.
> 
> Where can the original version be found?

At /n/sources/contrib/paurea/recover4e.tgz

paper at /n/sources/contrib/rsc/recover/recover.pdf


khm

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Re: [9fans] problem with installing plan9 from USB disk image

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:20:44AM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> The replacement of legacy BIOS with UEFI had two consequences:
> 
>  1. Dual booting is not possible


This is false.  Dual-booting works just fine with UEFI; tools like
efibootmgr make it trivial and I do it all the time.  It's much nicer
than having to work with grub.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 09:03:58PM +0100, David du Colombier wrote:
> > The 4e and 4e-latest tarballs are identical.  Is this intentional?
> 
> This should be fixed now. Thanks for reporting.

Thanks for the fix.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 06:06:49AM -0700, a...@9srv.net wrote:
> 
> The historical releases are available right now at:
> https://p9f.org/dl/

The 4e and 4e-latest tarballs are identical.  Is this intentional?

Thanks either way,
khm

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Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 06:06:49AM -0700, a...@9srv.net wrote:
> We are thrilled to announce that Nokia has transferred the copyright of
> Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation. This transfer applies to all of the
> Plan 9 from Bell Labs code, from the earliest days through their final
> release.
> 
> The most exciting immediate effect of this is that the Plan 9 Foundation
> is making the historical 1st through 4th editions of Plan 9 available
> under the terms of the MIT license. These are the releases as they
> existed at the time, with minimal changes to reflect the above.

Good work, and good decision.  

khm

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Re: [9fans] APL

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 02:31:13PM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 
wrote:
> Failing that, does anybody have a copy of the original source
> kicking around?  Since the virus is going to keep me locked up
> for a few more months yet, porting would help pass the time :-)

Michael Cain's code is available in sigapl's archive.  It's a cleaned-up 
version of the Purdue version that came with 2.11BSD, which is in all 
kinds of archives.  It's pretty much a direct descendent of the code
you're describing.

There was a TUHS thread that touched on this some time ago:
https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2014-July/006414.html

I think your best shot is Mark's copy of apl.tar:
http://maxhost.org/other/apl.tar 
but there's not much provenance info there (aside from the presence of a
makefile.pdp).

khm 

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Re: [9fans] Whats the default font in Acme?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:38:47AM -0800, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> 
> You can use bdf2subf [1] with my hidpi vga font [2] to get this.  Maybe
> someone already has?  If so, I'd be happy to add it to the VGA pile.

sam-d has done this.  A hidpi version of the VGA font ready for Plan 9
can be downloaded from http://sciops.net/downloads/vga/hugevga.tgz

Once unpacked under /lib/font/bit/, you can set
font=/lib/font/bit/hugevga/unicode.font to use it.

khm


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Re: [9fans] Whats the default font in Acme?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 07:14:36PM +, sirjofri wrote:
> 
> 17.02.2021 20:06:00 bomb...@gmx.net:
> > And is there a version for high dpi displays?
> 
> On 9front (and maybe on 9legacy?) It's the font you specify with font=, 
> which is vga by default.

You can use bdf2subf [1] with my hidpi vga font [2] to get this.  Maybe
someone already has?  If so, I'd be happy to add it to the VGA pile.

1 - http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/src/bdf2subf.tgz
2 - http://sciops.net/downloads/vga/u_vga32.bdf

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Foundation

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Feb 09, 2021 at 11:40:18PM -0800, Anthony Sorace wrote:
> 
> More information can be found on our web site, http://p9f.org/.
> 

"That effort stalled, mainly due to the treatment of software-focused
non-profit organizations under U.S. regulations at the time."

What does this mean?

khm

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Re: [9fans] 9Front / cwfs64x and hjfs storage

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 08:53:55AM +, sirjofri wrote:
> 
> Then removing WORM1, storing it as backup or reformat it as a new WORM4:
> 
...
> Is something like that possible? If not, it still could be an inspiration 
> for ori's new filesystem, maybe?

If he implements this and the resulting filesystem is not called
Oriborous I will be extraordinarily, possibly fatally, disappointed.

khm

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Re: [9fans] mice

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 06:22:27PM -0500, fi...@lojanci.org wrote:
> what about 2-1 chording, is B2 working fine?

Yes, it's fully HID-compliant.

khm

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Re: [9fans] mice

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 06:02:13PM -0500, fi...@lojanci.org wrote:
> Anybody has tried Unimouse on plan9port/linux?

I have.  I don't use it much these days since it's in my office and the
plague has me working from home.  It works fine -- what do you need to
know?

khm

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Re: [9fans] Flakey DNS server

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Oct 07, 2020 at 09:15:01AM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> I suggest taking a look at https://www.osmio.ch/
> 

I suggest not looking at https://www.osmio.ch/ instead.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 09:29:01PM -0400, Leonardo wrote:
> > User-friendliness is difficult to establish precisely.
> Yes, it's an abstract and subjective thing, but on average we know what is.

No we don't.  We like to claim we do, but really we're just pretending
prior training is intuition.  It's fine if you want software that works
the way you're used to, but let's not pretend it's natural law, please.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 01:43:49PM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote:
> > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
> 
> By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives 
> undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon 
> breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual 
> property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making 
> asset. In other words, burglary and theft.

I'm with you on the topic of the ethical void rampant in a lot of SV
tech companies, but this take is off the mark.  SV businesses trade on
convenience; it's only late-stage multinationals that attempt to
leverage monopoly to remove user control.  Fortunately by that stage
they're poorly enough run that internal competition leads to senescense
and new challengers introduce choice again.  It happened to Nokia,
IBM, Microsoft, and it's currently happening to Google, but all of them
got to that late stage by selling stuff people wanted, not alone by
being jerks.

The new model is to burn venture capital to get that market control, 
but the same principal applies:  by the time you're big enough to exert
sufficient force to exploit a monopoly, you're sufficiently large that
internal competition prevents you from operating efficiently.  

I think AT's sense of entitlement regarding their IP, combined with
the fact that Plan 9 was never presented as a consumer-facing product
(it was a research platform) had more to do with any lack of uptake.  In
other words, had it proved popular, the vultures would have arrived and
done the same things they do on most platforms.  In this case, better
roosts had appeared by the time Plan 9 became something the vultures 
considered to be worth exploiting.

I am grateful to the people who put effort into letting us have the code
regardless of whatever we might imagine their motivations are.  I'm glad
we have access and that the access we have lets us shoot for whatever
targets align with our priorities.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Who is behind 9p.io

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 11:25:57PM -0400, freen...@gmail.com wrote:
> should we maybe mirror it as a WWW site on github.io for safekeeping?

Who is "we"?

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 and Pine

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 04:20:19PM -0400, Chris McGee wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm not sure how many on here are aware of the Pine SBC's. There are a few
> different variants of those. Now there are even pre-built laptops and a
> phone. There is a plan for a tablet too. https://www.pine64.org/

I have the Pinebook Pro and the Pinephone.  Both are fun toys of no real
value.  The Pinebook Pro is almost good, but like all touchpad-only
laptops, it has an absolutely unusable mouse builtin.  It's even worse
than other touchpads, and it's rare for me to be able to differentiate
them.  The phone lasts anywhere from forty minutes to five hours to a
charge cycle, depending on the phase of the moon.

The best feature they've got is the ability to output serial over the
headphone jack, with an appropriately-wired cable, which I also have.

> I wonder for example if it might spark some more interest for people to try
> Plan 9 if they knew that there is a source of inexpensive and standardized
> hardware and things work mostly out of the box.

There is already a source of inexpensive and standardized hardware.  If
people won't try Plan 9 on an x86 machine they can get for $50 on eBay, why
would they try it on a $200 laptop with a weird processor?  Regardless, I'm 
willing to run whatever tests might be helpful for people interested in doing 
this development work.  I have all the gear.

> Perhaps this is an opportunity for the Plan 9 community to think what it
> would mean to run in a phone form factor.

https://github.com/floren/hellaphone
and
https://github.com/bhgv/Inferno-OS-bhgv

may interest you.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 08:34:32AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
> for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
> expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
> prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
> actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
> accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.

I'm not really following the art analogy here, but nothing I've said on
this list is new.  It's all documented either on 9front.org or (more
frequently) in the manual, which comes with the operating system.  The
9front ISO also contains the complete mercurial history of 9front, but
does not include or refer to the 'ports' repo. 

Most of the developers of 9front don't use (or even like) the 'ports' 
repository.  As far as I know the software in it works on any Plan 9
system.  Regardless, I'll work with its maintainers to clarify the
non-relationship in the README file.

If you have any other suggestions for improving the state of things, let
me know.  

If I'm honest, I suspect most of 9fans doesn't really give a shit about
most of these issues.  If anyone did, they probably would have said
something before now, or done something to ameliorate any of them.
Instead, they only seem to show up when someone gets mad about something
else and then decides to air unrelated grievances -- which is a shame, 
because the sooner they're voiced the easier it is to fix things.  I'm
sure the performative outrage is much more gratifying in the moment.

If anyone wants anything fixed, I'm available for that.  If I have to
wait until someone whatabouts something else, that's fine too, it's just
slower.  Either way, I'll try.

khm


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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 04:35:25PM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> The upstream version of Mercurial in the 9front ports collection is
> based on my work, not bichued's:
> https://code.9front.org/hg/ports/file/5f994209e142/dev-vcs/mercurial/mkfile
> 

That repo is run by 9front users; I just host it.  That's why the
contact point is mveety in the repo listing.  9front doesn't ship any of
that code.  

> The amount of work wasn't much, but if you're going to dredge up
> ancient history, at least be accurate:

I wasn't aware I was dredging anything up.  You complained about
something, and I went looking to see if I could fix the problem.

This repo is 9front:  http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/

Nothing else is 9front, and all of 9front is in that repo.  Here is the
revision history for the mercurial mkfile in 9front:
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/log/tip/sys/src/cmd/hg/mkfile

Obviously the people who work on the ports appreciate your effort, but
it is not the same port of mercurial that 9front uses.  I hope this
clears up the issue.

In the future, if anyone is dissatisfied with any of the attribution or
use of any of the code in 9front, please feel free to contact the 9front
mailing list, and I'll do my best to verify & fix any such problems.
Complete archives are available over 9p; there's a script to make
accessing them easier at
https://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/rc/bin/9fs

If you'd prefer, you can also email me directly.

The other repos on that site are either user repos run by random people
who asked me for access, or else various code I've collected around the
internet and did not want to lose.  Some of those repos came from Uriel
and I never have figured out what they are or where they came from.  If
anyone can help with those, I'd appreciate it.

thanks,
khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

To follow up, 9front mercurial originated from
/n/sources/contrib/bichued/ in 2009.  So this is yet another example of
the complete lack of discoverability being a source of unending
confusion in the Plan 9 community.  How many years have people been
pissed off about "stolen work" or whatever based on similar
misconceptions?  We'll never know.  So much information gets lost, and
it takes concentrated effort to reconstruct the timelines.  A stitch in
time saves nine!

khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 08:24:41AM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> 
> Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their
> development as "open" using tools that others in the community have
> developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten
> along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012.

I'm not sure what this paragraph means.  Can you clarify?  If you feel
something in 9front is misattributed or should be clarified as your
work, it will take seconds to fix. Can you be specific?  Initial commits
were in 2011, and I don't see much change to the mercurial code until
some CVE fixes in 2014.  I'd be happy to amend the record on your
behalf.

I also don't understand the scare quotes around "open" or the part about
using other people's software.  That's kind of the point of the license.

> (FWIW, I found this response especially entertaining after visiting
> code.9front.org; "Just Send the Money" indeed.)

402 Payment Required is my default response to search engine crawlers
and unpopulated URL paths.  code.9front.org returns that up front to
mitigate search engines, which otherwise beat the shit out of hgweb.
9front infrastructure is all paid for out of pocket by me and sl, so
we're not really interested in spending bandwidth on Google's bottom
line.  the actual hgweb pages (everything under code.9front.org/hg) have
working search functions.

the "just send the money" text is a decade-old joke about support
contracts and how they handle bug reports.   You may note that there is
no actual money-collecting infrastructure presented, because nobody
actually sends the money.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 09:29:14AM +, Richard Miller wrote:
> 
> Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're
> trying to get across.  It's meant to be insulting, right?
> 

It's meant to be a practical answer.  When people come looking for
information, they want to know where the information is.  "It's in six
different places, and the only consistent place to find them is by
asking over and over again on a mailing list, because they move every
couple years" is not an answer that people find much use for.

Generalizations are useful ways to get an overall picture of the
situation.  If you read the documents on 9p.io, none of the people who
currently develop Plan 9 or software for it are even mentioned except in
the contrib index.  

An example of this is how people always describe 9p.io as a mirror.  I'm
grateful it's up, but the first time I found out that people have been
posting source code to it post-mirror is *in this thread*.  How is
anyone supposed to have been able to discover this?  Repeatedly walking
the tree and diffing everything just in case?

Another good example is the kernel changes we only find out about when
someone tries to build a Go beta on 9front, fails, and then we realize
that someone on that team has modified the kernel for the language.  I
opened a ticket and asked for such things to be mentioned in the Go
release notes, and they kindly accomodated me.  But that was not the
default behavior; the default behavior was to assume everyone was
monitoring some mercurial repository on bitbucket.  Those assumptions do
not hold.

As for the "just send the money" joke, the code lives at
code.9front.org/hg/ and the (little-used, despite years of requests for
its existence) wiki is at code.9front.org/wiki/.  The code repos are
documented on 9front.org and the wiki is not advertised beyond the
people who asked for it, but it's open to everyone and contains a
changelog.  

I appreciate the work that people put into Plan 9.  The reality of that
work is that it's scattered, difficult to find, and necessitates years
of monitoring 9fans to identify the people who do it.  That works for
the people involved, and nobody at this point expects it to change, but
it is extremely disconnected from the way people tend to go about
developing software nowadays.  For all practical purposes, sl's answer
is accurate.  Whether it's insulting is really up to the reader.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Request for (constructive?) comments: Plan 9 : 2020

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 09:21:04PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> Hi Erik! Vashon might be ok depending on time of year due to limited
> lodging options. I plan to check the O Space for the workshop. lodging will
> be challenging unless we take over campgrounds and set up yurts :)

AYH could comfortably lodge every active Plan 9 user on earth and has
decent space for meetings.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Anyone have a Plan 9 4th Edition Manual Set...

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 09:32:29AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> michaelian ennis writes:
> 
> > I found a second edition set on Abe books last year.  They were not
> > inexpensive.
> 
> Sadly, Abebooks became utterly useless several years ago, when it was
> taken over by bots scraping each other listings and adding 5%.

In other words, Amazon bought it.  My copies came from Alibris, and they
were not a set; I bought them each individually for extremely cheap by
searching the ISBNs directly. 

khm

Re: [9fans] supported modern laptops

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 11:09:10AM -0400, s...@9front.org wrote:
> thinkpad x250 (see related entry in fqa3).
> 
> everything works.  mine is 1920x1080 ips.

Caveat:  you must have an Intel 6235 wifi chip installed for everything
to work under 9front.  It's Lenovo part number 04W3798 and is cheap.
I have two X250s, both 1920x1080, one touchscreen and one without.  The
touchscreen works in 9front.   The T450 is a larger model that can
handle 32GB of ram, where the X250 tops out at 16GB.

The other advantage to these specific models is they do not have stupid
whitelists in the firmware, which means you can buy a 2242-form-factor
m.2 SSD and put it in the WWAN slot.  The machine can boot from the SATA
drive or the m.2 slot, so choosing OpenBSD or 9front is a keystroke at
boot time and you do not have to screw around with chaining bootloaders.

khm

Re: [9fans] user interface questions

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 11:37:46PM +0300, Antonio Barrones wrote:
> There is some snapshots of the broken link
> (http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/TinyGL/) in archive.org, but the link
> to the source is missing. For example:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080506105341/http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/TinyGL
> 
> Antonio
> 

It's here now:  https://bellard.org/TinyGL/

khm

Re: [9fans] Regarding GUID partitioning

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 07:09:27AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> 
> So, to be clear: is there a Plan 9 supported facility to configure a
> drive according to the more modern, "don't knock it until you've tried
> it" (hmm, some here will have some valid criticism, I'd like to hear
> that) disk partitioning system?
> 

9front supports it and will prompt you to choose between GPT or MBR
during installation.  As far as I know the two main limitations to
9front GPT support are that it can only read (not write) hybrid MBR/GPT
partition tables, and it does not yet have a man page.

The code, from cinap is in the 9front tree at
sys/src/cmd/disk/prep/edisk.c and anyone who wants to take a crack at
producing some documentation is welcome to.

khm

Re: [9fans] The lost (9front) boot menus ...

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 05:33:07PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> 
> How about a FOUR second timeout, and some manpage patches?
> 

I object to quadrupling the timeout.  I am old and my eyesight sucks and
one second is perfectly sane.

khm

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:24:44AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> And we don't have to wait for a Michelangelo to design a perfect UI!

Of course not.  We already have Mike Okuda.

khm

Re: [9fans] Git/fs: Possibly Usable

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 05:00:15PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> 9front maintainers, can anyone speak to technical reasons for creating a
> new version rather than fixing existing? Also, any thoughts on changing the
> name slightly so they can both be on the same system? maybe libAVL?

In 2016 spew wrote libbst, which is a binary search tree library that
supports both AVL and left-leaning red-black tree.  While he was at it
he wrote a faster and simpler avl implementation, and fixed venti and
nupas to work with it.  Since those were the only two things in the tree
that used AVL, nobody really cared if the old implementation went away.

I'm not sure what the advantage is to reintroducing it to 9front (aside
from the desire for zen-garden reliquaries).  The programs that use the
old API can be counted on one hand and fixing them is not difficult.

The question was raised, at the time, if the old one might have been
hand-tuned for some venti-related performance characteristics, but I
don't think anyone followed through on measuring the difference.  If
there are such idiosyncracies in the old code, they were not documented.

khm

Re: [9fans] Fw: Git/fs: Possibly Usable

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 11:43:55AM -0700, Cull wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't BSD (2 clause) be the easiest to reliscence down the road?
> 

The copyright holder can relicense at will.

khm

Re: [9fans] Don't Plan 9 C compiler initialize the rest of member of a?struct?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 09:20:43PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:36 PM Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 08:26:30PM -0400, Jeremy O'Brien wrote:
> > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, at 11:33, Kyohei Kadota wrote:
> > > > Hi, 9fans. I use 9legacy.
> > > >
> > > > About below program, I expected that flags field will initialize to
> > > > zero but the value of flags was a garbage, ex, "f8f7".
> > > > Is this expected?
> > > >
> > > > ```
> > > > #include 
> > > >
> > > > struct option {
> > > > int n;
> > > > char *s;
> > > > int flags;
> > > > };
> > > >
> > > > int
> > > > main(void)
> > > > {
> > > > struct option opt = {1, "test"};
> > > > printf("%d %s %x\n", opt.n, opt.s, opt.flags);
> > > > return 0;
> > > > }
> > > > ```
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > According to C99: "If an object that has automatic storage duration is
> > not initialized explicitly, its value is indeterminate."
> > >
> > > Stack variable == automatic storage duration. This appears to be correct
> > behavior to me.
> > >
> >
> > Can anyone provide the patches 9legacy uses to implement C99 compliance?
> 
> 
> There were actually quite a few of them, mostly done by Geoff Collyer.  The
> compiler sources list contains a list of desiderata in a file called `c99`;
> of course, the plan9 compilers aren't completely compliant (they weren't
> trying to be). Incidentally this file has been carried forward into, for
> example, /sys/src/cmd/cc/c99 in the 9front distribution (and other plan9
> derivatives).
> 
> In the present case, this appears to be a compiler bug. The aforementioned
> reference to n1548 sec 6.7.9 para 10 is incorrect in that there _is_ an
> explicit initializer here. The relevant text in the standard is sec 6.7.9
> pp 16-21, which specifies that in the event that an explicit initializer
> does not completely cover (in a topological sense) the thing it is
> initializing, then the elements not covered shall be initialized as if they
> had _static_ storage duration; that is, they should be zeroed.
> 
> Now as I said, the Plan 9 C compilers aren't explicit C99 compliant. But
> given that the `c99` file describes things related to initializer lists as
> being unneeded because they were already implemented, one may assume it was
> believed that this was covered by c99 behavior. It isn't.
> 
> - Dan C.

So, no?

khm

Re: [9fans] Don't Plan 9 C compiler initialize the rest of member of a?struct?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 08:26:30PM -0400, Jeremy O'Brien wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, at 11:33, Kyohei Kadota wrote:
> > Hi, 9fans. I use 9legacy.
> > 
> > About below program, I expected that flags field will initialize to
> > zero but the value of flags was a garbage, ex, "f8f7".
> > Is this expected?
> > 
> > ```
> > #include 
> > 
> > struct option {
> > int n;
> > char *s;
> > int flags;
> > };
> > 
> > int
> > main(void)
> > {
> > struct option opt = {1, "test"};
> > printf("%d %s %x\n", opt.n, opt.s, opt.flags);
> > return 0;
> > }
> > ```
> > 
> >
> 
> According to C99: "If an object that has automatic storage duration is not 
> initialized explicitly, its value is indeterminate."
> 
> Stack variable == automatic storage duration. This appears to be correct 
> behavior to me.
> 

Can anyone provide the patches 9legacy uses to implement C99 compliance?


Thanks in advance,
khm

Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
> 

Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.

khm

Re: [9fans] plan9ports : open for discussion here?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 08:54:16AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> 
> something wrong with the functioning; allowed me to subscribe, but 
> doesn't allow me to post or even unsubscribe saying "i am not a member".
> 

A lot of the plan9port community suffers emotional trauma when
introduced to externally-induced thoughts.  Allow them time to decide
that approving your membership was their idea, and you'll be accepted
into the herd.  Like trying to pet a wild squirrel, the trick is to 
sit very still until they forget you weren't always there.  

khm

Re: [9fans] Plan 9 DNS server and dnsflagday

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 02:48:31PM +0300, Sergey Zhilkin wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Are we ready for this ?

It's not real.

khm

Re: [9fans] sources down

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:58:20PM -0700, arn...@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> How does that work if lines were deleted?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arnold
> 

$ cat one two
a b c
d e f
g h i

a b c
g h i
j k l

$ diff -e one two
3a
j k l
.
2d


khm

Re: [9fans] upas : without acme : possible?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 08:27:09PM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> 
> is that "mail" you mention similar to "mailx" under unix-like systems?
> the problem is one of not wanting a captive user-interface to the 
> mailing sub-system.
> 

You're looking for nedmail(1), I think.  Hopefully sl will chime in;
he's got a pile of scripts revolving around this idea.

khm

Re: [9fans] PDP11 (Was: Re: what heavy negativity!)

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:54:22AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>
> Since when did curiosity become a capital crime?   Oh, wait, that
> was January 20, 2017.  My bad.

Turns out it's not, so you can climb down off your cross.  It's just
that it helps to be a little clearer about your meaning, that's all.
Otherwise you might do something embarassing, like posting SAS
controller code into an NVMe discussion.

khm

Re: [9fans] PDP11 (Was: Re: what heavy negativity!)

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 04:54:22PM -0500, Steven Stallion wrote:
> As the guy 

might be worth keeping in mind the current most common use case for nvme
is laptop storage and not building jet engines in coraid's basement

so the nvme driver that cinap wrote works on my thinkpad today and is 
about infinity times faster than the one you guys locked up in the 
warehouse at the end of raiders of the lost ark, because my laptop can't
seem to boot off nostalgia.

so no, nobody gets an award for writing a driver.  but cinap won the
9front Order of Valorous Service (with bronze oak leaf cluster,
signifying working code) for *releasing* one.  I was there when field
marshal aiju presented the award; it was a very nice ceremony.

anyway, someone once said communication is not a zero-sum game.  the
hyperspecific use case you describe is fine but there are other reasons
to care about how well this stuff works, you know?

khm

Re: [9fans] what heavy negativity!

[Kurt H Maier]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 10:39:36AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> 
> sorry that i bothered you all.
> 

apology accepted, try to do better next time

khm

Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:33:33AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> Regular aggressive is taking things outside the realm of civilised discourse,
> which is easy to do behind a keyboard, since being irate at abstract things
> seems to be a slippery slope when removed from regular human contact.

Nah, I do it in person too.  But nice try!

> However, it is not really acceptable, even with an attempt at (biased) logic
> behind it.

Disagree.

> And the problem with doing that as a learning experience or for the purpose
> of having better tooling is exactly… what?

None.  But I don't see any learning, and I don't see any better tooling,
and that's my point.  This is just noise.

> You meant “grace” (pronounced “grasse”), not “greasy”, as in “foie de gras”.
> I can understand that mastery of foreign languages might slip away under the
> kind of blood pressure involved in your original reply.

You read my email, and you concluded that I meant to describe grace?  If
I can borrow your favorite word, that conclusion is fascinating.

> Ignorance takes many forms, such as lack of empathy (which can translate in
> some contexts to “emotional ignorance”). The attempt at drawing parallels
> with Kickstarter (and the implicit bias against experimentation and focusing
> only on failures) is amusing, but telling.

Lack of empathy can be just as easily a deliberate decision.  Why do you
tacitly discount this possibility?  

> This isn’t a web forum. It is a mailing-list, and as such (as I would like to
> think) one of the last bastions of measured, rational discourse on today’s
> Internet (ok, there was ample precedent for flame wars in FidoNet, and we can
> gloss over the Usenet massacres, but I think my point has a chance of getting
> across). You are not helping to set a positive tone.

I do not want to set a positive tone.  I want the programming fanfiction
to go away.  And I know this isn't a web forum.  That's why I
highlighted the weblike nature of the posting in question:  to indicate
it is out of place on a mailing list.  Much like your pearl-clutching
about civility.  

> And yet, if no-one tries, nobody will ever deliver on it.

And yet, if this person tries, nobody will still have delivered on it.
That was kind of the thesis of my message, remember?

> History is filled with people who were laughed at and changed (even if in
> small ways) the world we live in. Being able to remember that is what
> separates civilised cultures from biased, negative cultures that prey on (and
> anticipate) failure for the sake of entertainment. Ancient Rome comes to mind
> here.

Entertainment?  I'm trying to help this person fail in isolation, far
from prying eyes!  I don't want to watch this train wreck, or hear about
it at all.  That's my whole point!  Let the dreams die with some
dignity.

> I parsed that as the Dept. of Agriculture until I realised there were no
> animal husbandry puns to fit this situation. Regardless, I fully expected a
> red “let’s make Plan9 great” again baseball cap to emerge from this argument.
> Not being a political partisan, I’m not going to go there, and point out that
> ad hominem is always a way to introduce fallacy when genuine arguments don’t
> hold water (or alcohol).

I don't know how to be clearer:  my low opinion of this person is
precisely the 'argument' I am presenting.  It can't be a fallacy if it's
a premise.  The conclusion ("this will not happen") follows quite
naturally from the major premise ("idiots never actually execute their
plans") and the minor premise ("this guy is an idiot").  Seems
straightforward, despite your awkard and irrelevant political ramblings.

> You might. Failure to recognise the odds that you are says a lot.

I'm not going to apologize for confidence.  It comes of a moderate
amount of experience, hearing this same noise on a thousand
communications media, all from people who claim to be performing a
'learning exercise' or some such.  Some have delivered.  This person
does not demonstrate the characteristics of that capability.

> Loved this bout of sparring. Reminds me of when I believed technology alone
> could save the world, until I figured out that people (and how you relate to
> them) is the whole point of doing most of what actually matters.

I can only imagine the wonderful feeling that must have accompanied a
belief that anything can save the world, but declining to relate to
unproductive noisemakers is a policy that has consistently served me
very well.

Every once in a while, I am surprised.  When that happens, I get better
tools, and a few people get to savor the knowledge that I was wrong
about something.  It's a fair trade.

khm

Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:50:35AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote:
> I wouldn’t allow the passive-aggressive mood that surfaces here from 
> time to time to turn me off the project. 

How about regular aggressive?

Starting with "what project?"  We're gonna slap down an alpine rootfs
and throw plan9port in /bin? Every single person on this list has heard 
this exact "idea" with this exact lack of coherent expression at least 
twelve times before, probably from me.

The problem here is, in a record few number of posts, this person has
demonstrated a desire to mix two operationg systems while demonstrating
fundamental misunderstandings of both of them -- then in some kind of
incompetence coup de gras, managed to display an utter ignorance of
software development en route.  A fine display of efficiency! most
Kickstarter projects, for instance, take years to demonstrate this
degree of overconfident ineptitude! 

This sort of garbage post results in flames because it's
attention-seeking nonsense of the kind that generates many upvotes on
web forums, but no actual goddamn software. 

> That said, I’m fascinated by how often (and how quickly) some threads 
> devolve into “there is no point in doing that” or “we don’t need 
> those modern contraptions” arguments - reminds me a lot of some of 
> the hard boiled academia types I used to work with back when VMS 
> started losing ground. 

You're not fascinated by shit; that's a medium- to low-quality
rhetorical dodge to throw mud at straw men.  Stand by your opinions,
soldier -- you don't get bonus points for fake rumination.  For the 
record, I think it's a fine idea, but this guy isn't the one who's 
gonna cross that finish line.  Not this decade, at least, and I'd 
lay good money that it's not next decade, either.

If nothing else, by the time you get a decent clip down this road, you
come to understand why the locals were laughing as you passed them.

> As much as some folk here are not exactly fond of various nuances of 
> modern tech (from Linux to X to git, etc.),  I don’t think there’s 
> any need for dissing personal efforts to use or improve various 
> aspects of Plan9 (including, horror of horrors, making the user land 
> a bit more modern and usable, or at least more accessible to 
> mainstream users).

Efforts?  More hypothesizing? or is there some effort happening
somewhere here?  Anyway, needlessly or not, I'm not dissing any effort.
I'm dissing a person; 100% USDA Prime Ad Hominem, just ask Irving Copi 
if it ain't.  

You know what the best part is?  If I've got it all wrong, and this
person is indeed the Palamedes who will round out our unixy alphabet,
then I'll still get to use the software.  So let's all hope I'm wrong!

But I'm not.

> I’m just going to fetch my vitriol wiper now.

Happy to help,

khm

Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 08:10:19PM +0200, hiro wrote:
> why do you use the past tense about glendix? is it finished?

I have a kid in the second grade who was born after the last time anyone
worked on Glendix.   

khm

Re: [9fans] Touchpad

[Kurt H Maier]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 03:43:48PM +, DHAN HURLEY wrote:
> Hi, 
> I am sorry to break into your discussion.How do i UNSUBSCRIBE from this list
> Many thanks,
> Dhan Hurley

List-Unsubscribe: ,

Re: [9fans] 9front VMX

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 06:57:29PM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
> is there any graphics support? would it be usable to run a browser? dillo 
> talking to a framebuffer maybe?
> 
> ever hopefull of getting modern browser support in plan9...
> 
> -Steve


This is documented in the linked fqa section.

http://fqa.9front.org/openbsdvmweb.png

Note:  when sl said performance is terrible, this is what he was talking
about.

khm

Re: [9fans] 9P or better file services for multiple platforms

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 08:09:55PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> On 9/2/18, Skip Tavakkolian  wrote:
> >
> > Regarding authentication and access control, I think the only *standard*
> > option for a mixed OS environment (Plan 9, Linux/*BSD, Windows) is
> > Kerberos.
> >
> Is that still actively used (I mean, outside of Microsoft's attempted
> hi-jacking)? In my Linux-prone wider environment, the name is never
> uttered.

Yes, it's extremely common in many business and government
environments.  All of linux's weird-ass authentication systems are
poorly-reinvented kerberos implementations, with the primary limitations
and pain points directly stemming from unix tropes.  Generally someone
comes up with a bad idea, everyone adopts it, and then that bad idea
slowly evolves as closely as it can to being kerberos.

Most commonly, someone will mandate two-factor authentication, and
kerberos tickets (usually via GSSAPI) are the back-end, regardless of
which security tokens (RSA SecurID, smart cards, yubikeys, etc) are
chosen.

khm

Re: [9fans] updating awk ...

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:40:21AM -0400, Benjamin Purcell wrote:
> Spew here. I only made minimal changes to 9front awk to convert it to

On the topic of awk, a while ago Paul A. Patience did some work to
the awk in Boyd's contrib, so people interested in a native awk have
options these days.  Paul has moved on to other work, but I kept a copy
of his repo, which is available at http://code.9front.org/hg/awk/

khm

Re: [9fans] Tcl on Plan 9

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 10:53:51PM +0300, Олег Бахарев wrote:
> Is there a Tcl for Plan 9? And where can I get it?

fgb had it in contrib: http://9p.io/sources/contrib/fgb/replica/tcl/

khm

Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 10:35:42PM +0100, Ethan A. Gardener wrote:
> 
> a sort of operating system where the primary interface to all tasks is 
> a Forth interpreter.

I think we've talked about this in another venue some years back, but I
often thing of the OpenFirmware implementation used by the OLPC XO-1
laptop.  Instead of a BIOS or UEFI or linux trash in their stead, the
system was managed by an OpenFirmware installation, much of which was
written in Forth, and whose primary interface was a Forth shell.  This
environment had complete access to the hardware of the system, which
was used by the project to create really comprehensive hardware
diagnostics tools.

I mostly used it for screwing around, but it was fairly complete; it
supported the wifi hardware and the webcam, and I often thought I'd like
a computer that just booted into this environment and stayed there.  I'm
glad to hear you're still experimenting along these lines.  There's a
lot of value in a system whose primary interface is the programming
environment.  I work with computers because of the Commodore VIC-20...
and I wonder if I'd have ever given a damn about the field if my first
exposure to computers involved a Modern User Experience.

khM

Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 02:32:53PM +0800, 刘宇宝 wrote:
> 
> I miss much the *universal* shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on 
> macOS,  does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?
> 

Both the Ctrl key and the z key are fully supported on 9front Systems.
To remove undesired characters from the screen, the Backspace key is
also automatically provisioned, free of charge. 

khm

Re: [9fans] test(1) support for string length (-l) in p9p?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 09:28:42AM +0200, dexen deVries wrote:
> the man page of test(1) mentions "-l string" as string length operator
> for -eq, -gt, etc.
> but there seems to be nothing in the plan9port's src/cmd/test.c, nor
> in 9p.io/sources/cmd/test.c
> 
> is there any implementation of this floating around?
> 

Sure, in the research unix releases (e.g. [1]).  No idea why it got
dropped en route to today.  Further: unknown why someone cared enough 
to drop the feature but not enough to fix the man page.

khm

1 - 
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/Research-V7-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/cmd/test.c

Re: [9fans] nupas

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 10:26:46PM +, Steve Simon wrote:
> Great, thanks.
> 
> I just need to work out how to migrate my mailboxes
> and incorperate my changes to upas (spam prevention).
> 
> -Steve
> 

Erik wrote splitmbox; that can handle the conversion to nupas mdir
format.  Make sure nothing is accessing the mailserve (e.g. via imap)
before you kick it off.

khm

Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 07:13:57PM +, Steve Simon wrote:
> 
> personally i think this idea will become more and more important as we get 
> fiber to the home, local storage will become a thing of the past. 

I remember hearing this sentiment with '9600 baud modems' standing in
for 'fiber to the home.'  

If anything kills local storage, it will be vendor lock within the
android and ios worlds.  Banking on change being caused by *improved*
infrastructure is hanging your jacket on a shaky nail.

khm

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 06:21:42PM +, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> Yes. And to deliver an image for the Pi, built on Intel systems.

Always good to specify the deliverables.

> I struggle to understand how version control is not more actively used.

It's not particularly necessary when you have global state with
snapshots provided by a shared WORM fs.  DVCS adds a lot of complexity
for questionable gain, in that environment.  9front's adoption of
mercurial is a historical accident rather than a desired outcome.  But,
I understand that most people just want to use the tools they already
know.  It's much easier than learning a new paradigm.

> At least the basic ones regarding whether the result boots, yes.

I look forward to seeing your results.

> Well, for full disclosure, I work at Microsoft. I do have extensive
> AWS and GCE experience, and hardly find them “crippled”. It’s just that
> the world has moved on and prioritised certain kinds of hardware 
> virtualisation.

We can disagree, but AWS's recent push away from xen and toward kvm
indicates to me that they also consider their product crippled. 
Perhaps the world is moving back.

I'm sure they had excellent reasons for it, but I've never found either
Amazon or Google to be particularly capable platforms.  Perhaps I'd feel
differently if I were a web developer.

> For using QEMU’s virtualization features inside Hyper-V.

If Hyper-V is still capable of running Xen guests, you may want to look
at the code on sources for a start in that direction.  That way you
could skip linux altogether and just use the platform natively.  

Good luck,

khm

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 05:01:35PM +, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> A full build environment (the way I’m used to having it) comprises the 
> end-to-end automation for creating a full build,

A full build of what?  It's one command to rebuild the whole OS.  Is
that the goal?

> triggered by an external code repository 

This pretty significantly reduces the scope of the problem, since only a
couple of the forks use version control.  This simplifies the task
somewhat, at least.

> and (when possible) doing automated testing.

I think this is probably the most useful part of what you describe.  Do
you intend to write the tests?

> I understand that you might be used to manually bootstrap things, 

Please don't start making assumptions.  I'm just trying to clarify what
you're after.

>but I tend to go for fully reproducible builds and that usually requires a 
>minimal degree of automation. I did that for my Inferno builds for the Pi 
>(which, alas, are now lost) and do rely on Linux tools for building, because 
>that’s what I can host in the public cloud (which is also what I do for work).

Plenty of us run Plan 9 on public cloud providers.  There's even been
some success on running it with crippled providers like AWS and GCE. 
Obviously, the task is easier when you use providers that offer full KVM
services.  We've had virtio drivers for a while, and it makes the job
much easier.

> Fortunately, I have access to machines with nested virtualisation, so I might 
> be able to get Plan9 running inside QEMU inside a modern Linux kernel with 
> fair performance - but that does not preclude the need to automate things.

I'm still trying to understand why you'd even need nested
virtualization.

khm

Re: [9fans] There is no fork

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 03:10:34PM +, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> The main issue for me is putting together a build environment on top of KVM 
> or Linux, which isn’t covered in the FQA.
>  

What is a "build environment"?  The FQA contains an entire chapter
(3.3.1) on installing to qemu on linux.  If a complete installation is
not sufficeint to create a "build environment," can you help us
understand what is missing?

khm