Re: [AFMUG] troubleshooting telco pairs

[dmmoffett]

Yes that’s definitely a thing.  Did it with Sipura SPA ATA’s a long time ago.  
Those don’t exist anymore, so I don’t know what hardware to get today, but yes 
absolutely.

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of TJ Trout
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2024 11:25 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] troubleshooting telco pairs

 

I think you can make a virtual pots line using an FXO and FXS adapters over ip

 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2024, 7:58 AM mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> > 
wrote:

You can kinda sniff along the wire.  I would tie the pairs together at the far 
end and put the tone on it.  But the age old method is to cut it in the middle 
and see which direction the fault lies.  Ground each wire at the far end in 
sequence and identify the problem wire.  Keep cutting the bad half.  Binary 
chopping.  You might be able to put tone on one wire to ground and sniff, or 
open the jacked at a mid point etc.  Find someone with an old fashioned copper 
TDR.  Do you only have 2 wire available?  Does it read open circuit or does it 
have some leakage, shorts or grounds?

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com  
www.microtrench.pro  
www.terabitnetworks.com  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 8:44 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] troubleshooting telco pairs

 

Oddly, the customer’s IT guy does have Ethernet connectivity to the barns via 
wireless bridges.  But they want their barn controllers to also dial a list of 
phone numbers using the FAX line in the office.

 

Either I’m doing something stupid, or the wire’s broken in which case it wasn’t 
working over the POTS line either.

 

Farms can be very old school.  Don’t want eFAX.  Don’t want voicemail sent to 
email, they still use *97.  Don’t want IVRs or autoattendants or dial by name 
directory.  Don’t want computer-phone integration or softphones.  And yet the 
owner’s son drives a Tesla.

 

If it’s really a broken wire, then it’s their problem to get it fixed, I just 
usually start from the assumption that it was working when I got there and I’m 
doing something stupid.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Daniel White
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 9:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] troubleshooting telco pairs

 

Can you just eliminate the wire and do a wireless PtP between the two 
locations?  Even if you find the issue with the wire, if it is that convoluted, 
it sounds like an ongoing problem potentially.

 


  


Daniel White
Co-Founder

phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
direct: +1 (702) 470-2766

 

Ken Hohhof

June 5, 2024 at 1:24 AM

Anybody remember your POTS troubleshooting skills?

 

I’m trying to get an alarm system to work from a VoIP ATA over about 1000 feet 
of convoluted wiring at a farm, a combination of overhead and buried.  I get 
tone on my tone tracer (Tempo brand) but 0 VDC on a buttset or voltmeter.  It’s 
too far for my Fluke cable tester which is meant for data cables.

 

I suspect one wire in the pair is open, but I don’t know how to check this with 
just a tone tracer.

 

The alarm system just calls and plays a recorded voice announcement, so the 
VoIP part shouldn’t be tricky at all, not like FAX machines or alarms that use 
modems.  But it can’t even seize the line and call out.

 

 


  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

[dmmoffett]

Amazon was in one of my business textbooks in college.  The explanation was
that they had a trend line showing that profitability was coming in the
future, and evidence that the trend line would continue well past the
tipping point, and that's apparently good enough for a certain kind of
investor. 

And yeah, as Chuck said, AWS took them into the stratosphere.  I assume they
exceeded the projections at that point.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2024 1:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

The old saying is "lose money on every sale but make it up on volume".  The
new equivalent is "fake it 'til you make it".  Amazon is the classic example
of one that worked out.  Many have a non obvious revenue model that involve
selling ads or customer data, that's how TV manufacturers can sell TVs at
cost.

But investors seem to be losing patience with business plans that just burn
piles of cash with no plan to ever become profitable.  This seems to have
hit streaming companies, which everyone assumes are all profitable, but
actually most are not.

MoviePass seems to have been doomed, as was WeWork.  There was Theranos.
Seems like there is a blurred line between "fake it 'til you make it" and
outright scams and pyramid schemes.  All of us can attest that you need to
ramp up to a certain number of customers to achieve economies of scale, but
it should be possible to show some math how that leads to eventual
profitability.  Otherwise you're like the underpants gnomes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ih_TQWqCA



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 11:52 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

I consulted for three VC's after Nscp and L3...  The wisdom in their
thoughts at the time was a home run in one out of 20 was doing well... Their
thoughts about founders was about 1/3 idea and 2/3 the ability of the
founder to gather talent around them...   Your rolodex was as important as
your execution...  Seed money is easy.   A good presentation deck and glib
tongue.   Getting money for the first round isn't that hard.   Getting the
second round was the test of your business. 1MM seed, 4-10MM first, unicorns
got 100MM for second, and the sky was the limit on the 3rd...

On 6/3/24 7:18 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
> " ...the startups that light piles of money on fire until it runs out 
> seem to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.  Maybe they have 
> golden parachutes."
>
> If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.
>
> I read a quote from one of those zillionaire entrepreneurs that he had 
> to fail at seven businesses before he hit it big with one.  So I guess 
> it takes a lot of practice to get it right.  My question is how did he 
> get investment the 8th time after having those seven failures on his 
> rap sheet?  Or the 2nd-7th time for that matter.  That's gotta be 
> somebody with connections in the good-ol-boys network.
>
> If investors would just give me 8 chances at startups I'm sure I could 
> be a self-made zillionaire too.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 6:42 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary
>
> That'll buff out.
>
> Or if you're a Monty Pyton fan, "It's just a flesh wound".
>
> Or if you've watched Roadkill on Motor Trend TV, "Dzus it back on".
>
> The pilots here can tell me if there's really an expression CFIT 
> (Controlled Flight Into Terrain).  But I think that's supposed to be 
> unintentional, whereas the startups that light piles of money on fire 
> until it runs out seem to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.
> Maybe they have golden parachutes.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 3:27 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary
>
> Bet that smarts.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 5/31/2024 10:09 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
>> fly the plane into the ground
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>
>
>


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Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

[dmmoffett]

Lol

Any bias of course comes from the web content it’s digesting.  Sooner or later 
it’ll spew out some Neo Nazi talking points it found on Reddit.  I heard with 
Chat GPT they sanitize the list of inputs, but really it’s only a matter of 
time before it starts learning that stuff. 

 

Then, of course it will eventually find some context where substituting 
“humans” for “Jews” makes sense, and then Skynet will be born.  And since human 
operators of Predator drones have an incredibly high rate of PTSD it will make 
a lot of sense to put an AI in charge of them instead.  Combine the two things 
and now we’re screwed.

 

The robo-apocalypse is coming, man.  Hide your wife and kids.  Find yourself a 
nice analog Bofors L/60 autocannon to defend your stronghold from drone 
strikes.  

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2024 11:19 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

chatgpt is great for technical stuff, it writes all mysql queries for me and 
has written a couple contracts.

for customer interaction it's still too obvious, and irritating that most go 
through 2 to 3 AI layers before agent actually gets you to a human.

I have yet to find one without a left bias, not outwardly problematic til a 
customer is having a problem accessing a gun site and it spouts agenda. 

 

On Mon, Jun 3, 2024, 9:02 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Seems like all AI get a lot of their training on Reddit.  Pros and cons to that.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 7:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

I just gave Perplexity (free version) two questions where I know how GPT 
responded.  

 

"How do I configure OSPF export filters on Arista EOS?"

This answer was accurate, in fact it was more concise than what I got from chat 
GPT.  

 

"How do you configure an XGS-PON interface on the Nokia ISAM 7360?"

This answer was wrong.  Now, to be fair, Nokia has a lot of products, and I 
think what it gave me was the correct commands for a different Nokia product.  
It's the right sort of syntax you'd see on a Lucent/Alcatel/Nokia product, it's 
just wrong for the ISAM 7360.  

 

Another difference between those questions is Arista's documentation is freely 
available on the web whereas Nokia's documentation requires an account and 
login to access.  The reason I'd look for help on Nokia is specifically because 
the commands can vary, and the documentation is too much to digest for a mere 
human.  The doc package for the ISAM 7360 is >20,000 pages.  That's not 
counting release notes, white papers, forum posts, and technical notes.  So 
this is the exact sort of thing I really would like help researching and it 
gave me a wrong answer on the first test. 

 

I followed up with "These instructions may be for a different Nokia product. 
Are you sure they will work on 7360 ISAM?"  It provided several citations and 
concluded, "therefore the instructions I provided should be applicable to 
the 7360." 

 

The first citation is a reddit post about configuring the ports on an NT 
(ethernet) card.  It apparently learned the naming convention of PON ports from 
another source and adapted the instructions on reddit using the NT card command 
syntax and inserting the PON port names.  That's an impressive bit of learning 
and correlating sources, and it's the sort of thing a human might try while 
learning the platform.  It's still wrong though.  

 

-Adam

 

 

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:27 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Anybody here use AI on a daily basis, like for research or creative purposes?

 

I’m an AI naysayer, but this looks awfully attractive.  There’s a free tier, or 
unlock the full capability and almost unlimited queries for $20/mo.  I’m not 
sure I could do a decent eval on it though.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/perplexity-is-the-only-paid-ai-chatbot-you-need-heres-why/

https://www.perplexity.ai/pro

 

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Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

[dmmoffett]

“How can I use an AI resource like Perplexity to assist in my job as a Network 
Engineer?”

 

It lists a number of things about network analytics, automation, prediction of 
issues, etc.

 

“Can Perplexity do any of the things suggested in the previous answer?”

 

A long winded answer saying in essence, “No, not really.”

 

At least honesty isn’t an issue….yet.  Wait until marketing finds out that the 
language model is not an enthusiastic advocate for the product.  Then they’ll 
find a way to make it give a slimy sales pitch.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2024 11:12 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

Jesus Christ.  I paid the $20 and uploaded a bunch of Nokia manuals and somehow 
the answer to “how to configure an XGS-PON port” got even more wrong.  It has 
invented sequences of commands that definitely do not exist on this platform 
and are not in the manuals I provided.  

 

Since I paid $20 I experimented with a number of other questions.  It’s doing 
ok with general questions about concepts and capabilities, but any question 
about HOW to do something is either ridiculously wrong or dangerously wrong.  
By ridiculously wrong I mean completely incorrect command syntax.  By 
dangerously wrong I mean commands that would be accepted, but which would 
result in no service on that port.  

 

It must be so good with Arista/Cisco stuff because there are so many examples 
on the web it can work with.  Presumably it can’t understand how routers work, 
but it can find an example that does what you asked for and regurgitate it for 
you.  

 

There may be a better use for it, but I don’t know what yet.  If anybody thinks 
of anything I’ll certainly try it while I have a month of this service paid 
for. 

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2024 10:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

Seems like all AI get a lot of their training on Reddit.  Pros and cons to that.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 7:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

I just gave Perplexity (free version) two questions where I know how GPT 
responded.  

 

"How do I configure OSPF export filters on Arista EOS?"

This answer was accurate, in fact it was more concise than what I got from chat 
GPT.  

 

"How do you configure an XGS-PON interface on the Nokia ISAM 7360?"

This answer was wrong.  Now, to be fair, Nokia has a lot of products, and I 
think what it gave me was the correct commands for a different Nokia product.  
It's the right sort of syntax you'd see on a Lucent/Alcatel/Nokia product, it's 
just wrong for the ISAM 7360.  

 

Another difference between those questions is Arista's documentation is freely 
available on the web whereas Nokia's documentation requires an account and 
login to access.  The reason I'd look for help on Nokia is specifically because 
the commands can vary, and the documentation is too much to digest for a mere 
human.  The doc package for the ISAM 7360 is >20,000 pages.  That's not 
counting release notes, white papers, forum posts, and technical notes.  So 
this is the exact sort of thing I really would like help researching and it 
gave me a wrong answer on the first test. 

 

I followed up with "These instructions may be for a different Nokia product. 
Are you sure they will work on 7360 ISAM?"  It provided several citations and 
concluded, "therefore the instructions I provided should be applicable to 
the 7360." 

 

The first citation is a reddit post about configuring the ports on an NT 
(ethernet) card.  It apparently learned the naming convention of PON ports from 
another source and adapted the instructions on reddit using the NT card command 
syntax and inserting the PON port names.  That's an impressive bit of learning 
and correlating sources, and it's the sort of thing a human might try while 
learning the platform.  It's still wrong though.  

 

-Adam

 

 

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:27 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Anybody here use AI on a daily basis, like for research or creative purposes?

 

I’m an AI naysayer, but this looks awfully attractive.  There’s a free tier, or 
unlock the full capability and almost unlimited queries for $20/mo.  I’m not 
sure I could do a decent eval on it though.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/perplexity-is-the-only-paid-ai-chatbot-you-need-heres-why/

https://www.perplexity.ai/pro

 

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Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

[dmmoffett]

Jesus Christ.  I paid the $20 and uploaded a bunch of Nokia manuals and somehow 
the answer to “how to configure an XGS-PON port” got even more wrong.  It has 
invented sequences of commands that definitely do not exist on this platform 
and are not in the manuals I provided.  

 

Since I paid $20 I experimented with a number of other questions.  It’s doing 
ok with general questions about concepts and capabilities, but any question 
about HOW to do something is either ridiculously wrong or dangerously wrong.  
By ridiculously wrong I mean completely incorrect command syntax.  By 
dangerously wrong I mean commands that would be accepted, but which would 
result in no service on that port.  

 

It must be so good with Arista/Cisco stuff because there are so many examples 
on the web it can work with.  Presumably it can’t understand how routers work, 
but it can find an example that does what you asked for and regurgitate it for 
you.  

 

There may be a better use for it, but I don’t know what yet.  If anybody thinks 
of anything I’ll certainly try it while I have a month of this service paid 
for. 

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2024 10:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

Seems like all AI get a lot of their training on Reddit.  Pros and cons to that.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 7:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

 

I just gave Perplexity (free version) two questions where I know how GPT 
responded.  

 

"How do I configure OSPF export filters on Arista EOS?"

This answer was accurate, in fact it was more concise than what I got from chat 
GPT.  

 

"How do you configure an XGS-PON interface on the Nokia ISAM 7360?"

This answer was wrong.  Now, to be fair, Nokia has a lot of products, and I 
think what it gave me was the correct commands for a different Nokia product.  
It's the right sort of syntax you'd see on a Lucent/Alcatel/Nokia product, it's 
just wrong for the ISAM 7360.  

 

Another difference between those questions is Arista's documentation is freely 
available on the web whereas Nokia's documentation requires an account and 
login to access.  The reason I'd look for help on Nokia is specifically because 
the commands can vary, and the documentation is too much to digest for a mere 
human.  The doc package for the ISAM 7360 is >20,000 pages.  That's not 
counting release notes, white papers, forum posts, and technical notes.  So 
this is the exact sort of thing I really would like help researching and it 
gave me a wrong answer on the first test. 

 

I followed up with "These instructions may be for a different Nokia product. 
Are you sure they will work on 7360 ISAM?"  It provided several citations and 
concluded, "therefore the instructions I provided should be applicable to 
the 7360." 

 

The first citation is a reddit post about configuring the ports on an NT 
(ethernet) card.  It apparently learned the naming convention of PON ports from 
another source and adapted the instructions on reddit using the NT card command 
syntax and inserting the PON port names.  That's an impressive bit of learning 
and correlating sources, and it's the sort of thing a human might try while 
learning the platform.  It's still wrong though.  

 

-Adam

 

 

On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:27 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Anybody here use AI on a daily basis, like for research or creative purposes?

 

I’m an AI naysayer, but this looks awfully attractive.  There’s a free tier, or 
unlock the full capability and almost unlimited queries for $20/mo.  I’m not 
sure I could do a decent eval on it though.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/perplexity-is-the-only-paid-ai-chatbot-you-need-heres-why/

https://www.perplexity.ai/pro

 

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Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

[dmmoffett]

" ...the startups that light piles of money on fire until it runs out seem
to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.  Maybe they have golden
parachutes."

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. 

I read a quote from one of those zillionaire entrepreneurs that he had to
fail at seven businesses before he hit it big with one.  So I guess it takes
a lot of practice to get it right.  My question is how did he get investment
the 8th time after having those seven failures on his rap sheet?  Or the
2nd-7th time for that matter.  That's gotta be somebody with connections in
the good-ol-boys network.  

If investors would just give me 8 chances at startups I'm sure I could be a
self-made zillionaire too.  

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 6:42 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

That'll buff out.

Or if you're a Monty Pyton fan, "It's just a flesh wound".

Or if you've watched Roadkill on Motor Trend TV, "Dzus it back on".

The pilots here can tell me if there's really an expression CFIT (Controlled
Flight Into Terrain).  But I think that's supposed to be unintentional,
whereas the startups that light piles of money on fire until it runs out
seem to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.  Maybe they have golden
parachutes.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 3:27 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

Bet that smarts.

bp


On 5/31/2024 10:09 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> fly the plane into the ground

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Re: [AFMUG] MCC-800-GIGE-APC-HV and ethernet link issues

[dmmoffett]

Maybe a use case could be something like industrial controls?  A damaged port 
could be very expensive, but nobody cares if it’s 10mbps or 1000.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 6:18 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MCC-800-GIGE-APC-HV and ethernet link issues

 

I don’t recommend the GIGE-APC-HV for anything frankly.  It is a very fast 
acting circuit to provide maximum damage.  But it does not get along well with 
some radios.  Most of our customers use the CAT6 products.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 4:11 PM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MCC-800-GIGE-APC-HV and ethernet link issues

 

Have you tried replacing the surge suppressor card with a new one?  It might 
have taken a lightning hit and damaged some of the diodes.

 

You could switch to Chuck’s Cat6 version which is GDT (gas tube) only.  
Unlikely to get damaged, but might provide less protection, Chuck could 
probably speak to that.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of liddy303
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2024 1:10 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] MCC-800-GIGE-APC-HV and ethernet link issues

 

Chuck,

 

I recently put a four port din rail surge suppressor chassis in production with 
four MCC-800-GIGE-APC-HV cards.

 

A couple of months into their use the ethernet links to the radios on the tower 
start flapping and renegotiating down from 1G to 100M and then eventually 10M, 
and then eventually failing.  When I bypass the card with a female-female RJ 
connector, they come right back up at 1Gig.

 

These radios are powered from a MikroTik POE switch at 48v.

 

Any suggestions?Am I using the wrong card for 48v poe?

 

Thanks.

 

-Brandon

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Re: [AFMUG] Multi-path, Reflections, and Ducting

[dmmoffett]

I can’t remember, is the 450 slant polarity?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 12:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Multi-path, Reflections, and Ducting

 

yep, til we switch to 450 we had one customer like this. the coolest part was 
you could watch him harvest his field by his rssi. it was a perfect example 
customer. two radios about 10 feet apart on the roof, each only worked half the 
year

 

On Fri, May 10, 2024, 3:58 PM Nate Burke mailto:n...@blastcomm.com> > wrote:

Way back in the early days of FSK we did a poor mans spacial diversity for a 
customer.  Put an SM on either end of his roof, and told him to switch cables 
if it stopped working.  

On 5/10/2024 3:53 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Yep, been hearing this for the last 20 years.  

Has to have something to do with ground reflections changing with the crop.  

A space diversity setup would cure it.  

 

 

From: Nate Burke 

Sent: Friday, May 10, 2024 2:34 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] Multi-path, Reflections, and Ducting

 

For those of you who don't have to deal with it, whatever it's called, this is 
what us flatlanders have to put up with.At the top of the pipe, the radio 
would only get a maximum of -76, at it's current height, it's at -59.  All 
happened last week when that hayfield grew.  Signal was fine before then, and 
it steadily lost signal all last week.  (It is LOS to the tower, the tower is 
just directly in line with the pipe in the picture)

 

  


  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] SNMP

[dmmoffett]

As far as something newer/better than SNMP, there is Netconf (RFC6241).  In a 
nutshell, it uses HTTP to carry XML data with the queries and commands.  It’s 
“push” rather than “pull”, so you put the NMS URL in the device rather than 
adding every device to the NMS.  In theory, if your NMS server blows up you can 
stand up a new one on the same IP address and all the devices start talking to 
it like nothing happened.  And (hopefully) your devices can get the NMS URL via 
a DHCP option or RADIUS attribute or whatever so you don’t actually have to 
enter it on every device.  It’s also supposed to be lighter on the network and 
lighter on the devices because they don’t have to provide every value in every 
polling interval; they can just update the NMS with whatever changed from the 
previous interval.

 

So there are a lot of positive aspects to the new way, but the problem is SNMP 
has been around for over 3 decades and you have a huge installed base of 
software and hardware using it.  I believe Nokia (Altiplano) uses Netconf, and 
I know the Telrad LTE stuff did as well…..and in both cases they chose NOT to 
implement SNMP on the device at all.  Nokia, I believe, provides some kind 
middleware so you can have a machine taking SNMP queries and translating it to 
talk to the NetConf server.  I’m fuzzy on that piece because I’ve only seen 
Powerpoint about it.  Telrad just said screw SNMP.  My point being that the two 
Netconf implementations I know about both opted for Netconf only, rather than 
keeping SNMP for backward compatibility.

 

 

 

Email alerts sounds like the easy way up until it doesn’t work.  It seems like 
these days you always run into anti-spam features.  I’d suggest if you do that 
you have the device send from an email address on the same domain and same host 
as your company email and ask the provider to (1) exempt that sender from spam 
and virus scanning, (2) dev/null any incoming mail for that address, and (3) 
set the password to never expire.  Optionally (4) have them only accept mail 
from that sender if it comes from your IP addresses.   If it accepts incoming 
mail you’ll eventually end up with infinite gigs of backscatter.  Also, fully 
expect your IT people to delete that account sometimes.  This may sound stupid, 
but it happens. Some well meaning new guy will review email accounts and find 
this one account that nobody has ever logged into and delete it assuming it’s a 
dead account.  Oh….write down the password somewhere because you’ll need to set 
in every device and you’ll need to be able to put it back in when the new IT 
guy deletes it.  If you ever have to reset it then obviously you have to touch 
every device to update them.

 

If they’ll let you send without auth that avoids any password related 
hardships, but then item (4) in my list is no longer optional.  

 

You’ll have to cope with all the same issues when your NMS sends email, but you 
cope with it on one server instead of 1000 devices.

 

My final comment about email alerts is you don’t know when they stop working.  
If the NMS can’t poll the device with SNMP you’ll get an alert about that, but 
if the device can’t send an email that looks the same as if there just aren’t 
any problems right now.  You’ll find out when something bad happens and you 
realize you didn’t get the alert.

 

So yeah…..SNMP is what I’d do.  Maybe Netconf someday when there’s wider 
support for it.

 

For reading dry contacts with SNMP I certainly like Packetflux, and we bought 
lots of SiteMonitors in our WISP days.  There’s also controlbyweb.com, 
sometimes they typically cost more than a SiteMonitor, but sometimes they’ll 
have one box that gives you the right mix of contacts whereas you needed a 
Sitemonitor + Expansion to get the same thing with Packetflux.   

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2024 5:42 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP

 

I think the simple email alert is what we are looking for..  No NMS needed.  

 

 

 

From: castarritt 

Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 3:33 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SNMP

 

We've done stuff as ghetto as powering an old wrt54g through the alarm contacts 
and monitoring its IP address to see when it comes up and goes down.  These 
days all of our sites have either an Alpha or ICT UPS or DC shelf that has 
alarm monitoring inputs.

 

On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 4:30 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

As long as you support SMTP AUTH, I think that should be sufficient.  If 
necessary, someone could always create a Gmail account for this purpose.

 

Yes, there are some older devices that expect you to set them up as an MTA 
rather than MUA so they can send unauthenticated SMTP on port 25.  That sounds 
like a really bad plan to me unless you time travel back to maybe 1999.  I 
don’t want to be creating SPF and DKIM and DMARC 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

[dmmoffett]

My first was a Commodore 128, which you almost always ran in C64 mode because 
most of the software was written for the C64 rather than break compatibility 
with the established user base.  I was probably 7 years old.  If anyone had a 
Commodore you may recall that the OS was a BASIC interpreter.  Remember LOAD 
"*",8,1 ?

My dad was a controls technician, and he got the Commodore because he had to 
learn how to program logic controllers in BASIC.  They still controlled 
machinery with more basic components, but digital controllers were the path 
forward because you could change or correct a process machine without rewiring 
it.  He had a book of example programs and I would type them out and run them.  
By age 9 I could do some pretty solid GOTO and GOSUB spaghetti.  In high school 
the drafting class started with pencils and then you transitioned to AutoCAD in 
the 2nd year, and then I learned LISP because AutoCAD had a LISP interpreter 
built in.  

I think in the mid 90's there was a crop of kids that grew up in a world of 
scripts and BASIC code on Apples and Commodores. DOS .bat scripts too.  When 
you wanted to hire entry level PC repair or tech support people there was this 
pool of kids who already had useful knowledge and interest.  I don't know how 
today's youth learn anything in the pointy-clicky world they grow up in, but 
I'd bet it's not so easy to hire young nerds.

I also wonder if you old guys feel the same about me.  "Spoiled kid grew up 
with high level languages.  He'll never understand digital logic like we do 
since we had to learn with paper tapes, and switches, and punch cards." 

Was there some guy from the 1930's saying "Kids these days with their punch 
cards!  They never had to place instructions on a mechanical drum computer so 
they'll never understand the sequencing and timing like we do."

-Adam

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Oh yeah. My first interaction with a computer was at the local JC in northern 
Minnesota. We had a teletype that was connected to "something" 
at U of M in Minneapolis. We would punch out programs (I think in Basic or 
Fortran) onto paper tape, then feed the program through the paper tape reader 
attached to the teletype.

The first computer I ever touched was one made by Olivetti. It was a desktop 
thing roughly 2'x2', and maybe 6 or 8 inches tall. Programs could be keyed in 
through a front keypad, and stored on a magnetic card about the same size as a 
Hollerith card. Memory was very limited, I remember only about 120 or so words, 
but it had a couple dozen registers. You could sacrifice some of the registers 
to hold instructions, and stretch your program beyond 120 words depending on 
how cleverly you could sacrifice registers. The thing had 2 lights above the 
keypad, one green and one red. The green light would flash every time an 
instruction was executed (about 1 per second, except for floating point). 
Floating point instructions took several seconds each. If you did something 
illegal (like divide by zero), the red light would come on, and the program 
halted.

My bit-banging days were with a little company called EMR (Electro-Mechanical 
Research IIRC). Big ass machine maybe 20 or 25 feet long and almost 7 feet 
tall. Had core memory measured in KB (way less than 1 MB). Rather than cooling 
the core memory, it was kept in an oven that held it at a constant 50° C (or 
close to that). It took two "cards" 
to make a flip flop; each card was roughly 4x4 inches and would have either 
AND, OR, NAND, NOR gates on it. They would cross-couple a couple of NAND gates 
to make 1 flip flop. Discrete components; all diodes and transistors. When we 
repaired a problem; usually isolated to a single card, we would take the bad 
card back to the shop and replace the bad diode or transistor.


bp


On 5/3/2024 10:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed 
> with the front panel switches.
> First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected 
> to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon 
> lander simulator on it.
>
> -Original Message- From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction 
> Code
>
> I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would 
> fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote:
>> On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>> At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business 
>>> Oriented Language.
>> Hmmm, I programmed in both
>>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Pot

[dmmoffett]

What the doctor told me was if the drug was classified as a controlled 
substance (which amphetamines are, including lisdexamphetamine/Vyvanse) then 
there’s a quota applied to geographic areas.  The distributors are only allowed 
to sell x amount in a given region, and they parse the quota out to the 
different pharmacies.  Apparently this was some change implemented to combat 
opioid abuse.  He suggested try a rural pharmacy because they’re less likely to 
use up their quota.  So far that has worked out for me.  

 

If you were popping opioids it’s probably harder to maintain that habit now, 
but everyone who was using their pills as prescribed is collateral damage.  

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 2:32 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

People who take Vyvanse or even the generic equivalent probably wish they could 
make their own.  It ain’t cheap.

 

I thought we were now out of the 6 months exclusivity that the first generic 
gets, but the price hasn’t come down, and there are still shortages.  
Supposedly demand was up because people without any particular condition take 
it as kind of a performance enhancing drug.

 

If it works for someone’s ADHD symptoms, then you don’t want to be unable to 
refill your prescription and go back to feeling like a 4th of July fireworks 
show inside your brain.  Oddly, people with ADHD can also be somewhat autistic, 
they can go down a rabbit hole focusing on one thing for hours, but they can’t 
multitask because of all the mental distractions.  SQUIRREL!

 

Sometimes I suspect social media is giving everybody the equivalent of ADHD.  I 
have 5 things to do today.  Oh, look, Facebook.  Tiktok.  Texts.  Now where did 
the day go?

 

It makes me feel like a drug dealer selling Internet.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2024 12:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

After my last meth lab blew up my motor home, I quit doing it.  

 

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   

Sent: Monday, May 6, 2024 11:07 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

I started on lisdexamfetamine recently.  My productivity is much higher.  My 
focus still drifts elsewhere, but I find I recenter on my main task more 
quickly.

 

ADHD is profoundly genetic by the way.  If your son has it then you or his 
mother does.  The current thinking is that it’s so widespread because it’s a 
survival adaptation which happens to not always fit well into the structures of 
our modern life.  A study in Kenya compared a nomadic population with a settled 
one.  The genes responsible are well known, so they could identify who in each 
population had them and compare their outcomes.  Among the settled population 
the kids with ADHD genes had worse grades in school, and the adults were less 
well nourished.  Among the hunter-gatherer nomads, the people with ADHD genes 
were more well nourished.  

 

We probably shouldn’t medicate kids for it as much as we do, but I’m saying in 
my case a little bump of amphetamine in the morning does me good.  

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 3:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

OK, looking at it another way. Some people need meds to be normal. My son has a 
prescription for lisdexamfetamine because he has ADHD. He's not impaired, and 
it's not like he's a meth head.

That said, I can see a problem if your employee wants to smoke a joint in the 
workplace. Bigtime secondhand smoke problem. And if you don't want him 
operating machinery or vehicles, your insurance company would probably agree.

Has he asked to bring his emotional support alligator to work yet?

 Original Message 
From: "Jan-GAMs" 
Sent: 5/3/2024 2:20:33 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

First I would ask for the Dr. to call me.  2nd I would suspend the employee 
until the Dr. calls me.  It could be a type of pot that doesn't impair but I 
wouldn't want to take the chance.  Third, I'd find someone not impaired and 
have them do the job.  Put the doper in charge of a broom until layoff time.

On 5/3/24 09:40, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Darrin makes me think of Samantha oh, Samantha...

 

 

 

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 10:21 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

My google-foo says it can be:

Kevin
Ken
Gary
Terry

but I like Darren too.

 

bp


On 5/3/2024 9:09 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; 
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 
2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face 

Re: [AFMUG] Pot

[dmmoffett]

I started on lisdexamfetamine recently.  My productivity is much higher.  My
focus still drifts elsewhere, but I find I recenter on my main task more
quickly.

 

ADHD is profoundly genetic by the way.  If your son has it then you or his
mother does.  The current thinking is that it's so widespread because it's a
survival adaptation which happens to not always fit well into the structures
of our modern life.  A study in Kenya compared a nomadic population with a
settled one.  The genes responsible are well known, so they could identify
who in each population had them and compare their outcomes.  Among the
settled population the kids with ADHD genes had worse grades in school, and
the adults were less well nourished.  Among the hunter-gatherer nomads, the
people with ADHD genes were more well nourished.  

 

We probably shouldn't medicate kids for it as much as we do, but I'm saying
in my case a little bump of amphetamine in the morning does me good.  

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 3:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

OK, looking at it another way. Some people need meds to be normal. My son
has a prescription for lisdexamfetamine because he has ADHD. He's not
impaired, and it's not like he's a meth head.

That said, I can see a problem if your employee wants to smoke a joint in
the workplace. Bigtime secondhand smoke problem. And if you don't want him
operating machinery or vehicles, your insurance company would probably
agree.

Has he asked to bring his emotional support alligator to work yet?

 Original Message 
From: "Jan-GAMs" 
Sent: 5/3/2024 2:20:33 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

First I would ask for the Dr. to call me.  2nd I would suspend the employee
until the Dr. calls me.  It could be a type of pot that doesn't impair but I
wouldn't want to take the chance.  Third, I'd find someone not impaired and
have them do the job.  Put the doper in charge of a broom until layoff time.

On 5/3/24 09:40, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Darrin makes me think of Samantha oh, Samantha...

 

 

 

From: Bill Prince 

Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 10:21 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com   

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

My google-foo says it can be:

Kevin
Ken
Gary
Terry

but I like Darren too.

 

bp


On 5/3/2024 9:09 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:calibri; panose-1:2 15
5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:aptos;}@font-face
{font-family:tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}p.msonormal,
li.msonormal, div.msonormal {margin:0in; font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}a:link, span.msohyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99; color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}span.emailstyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif; color:windowtext;}.msochpdefault
{mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}div.wordsection1 {page:wordsection1;} 

"I have a card" = entitled Karen (I forget the name for a male Karen, is it
Darren?)

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

I have always had employees that were in rehab.  But never had anyone using
at work before this guy.  He pointed to the fact he has a pot card for
anxiety.  I have a card in my pocket that says I am old enough to buy whisky
too, but I doubt any employer would be OK with me sucking a flask while
working.  

 

I know certain prescription conventional drugs can make you not safe to
operate equipment.  But this guy had to operate equipment as part of his
job.  I would make an accommodation for someone that had pain meds
temporarily that left them a bit impaired but not as an every day thing.  

 

This guy was MAX drama too.  One thing I tell everyone when I hire them, the
only thing I really care about is no drama.  Do not bring your drama to
work.  

 

 

 

 

From: Steve Jones 

Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 10:01 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

lite duty, no operating machinery or equipment

 

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 9:18?AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I think the ADA does want you to accommodate rehab appointments in someone's
work schedule.  

...which I would do anyway.  If they're working on getting straight I don't
want to stand in their way.  I don't know if anyone goes to rehab for pot
though.  Probably not.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2024 5:11 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

Utah code 26-61a-111(4)..

 

"Nothing in this section 

Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

[dmmoffett]

This non-profit joint exists due to ARRA funding.  At the time I was annoyed 
that they got money for middle mile that doesn’t serve anybody and we didn’t 
get funding for our wireless project that actually *would* serve people.

 

In hindsight I don’t mind them being there.  We looked at an IRU for 48 fibers 
for one mile to get around a bad make-ready situation.  They said they’d have 
to include a non-recurring charge for an overlash because 48 would consume 
everything they had left on the cable and make all the miles before and after 
that point worthless.  Even with the overlash cost it was an order of magnitude 
cheaper than building it ourselves.  

 

Instead we leased one fiber and we’re building a small POP.  That’s less CapEx 
but more OpEx to maintain another site, and powers higher than me think that’s 
better in this case.  …..and either way having them available saved the day.  

 

I’ve seen much higher quotes for IRU’s and often times, like you said, they’re 
high enough to be comparable to building it yourself.  I think they sell I to 
people who don’t want to own plant, or people who need to execute immediately.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 7:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

 

I remember the first IRU I got quoted.  It amounted to a figure equal to 
building it ourselves.  My first time hearing the term IRU too.  

That was probably 25 years ago.  

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   

Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2024 2:15 PM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

 

>From a non-profit middle-mile provider we pay $42/month/fiber-mile for a 
>lease.  Same company does a 20-year IRU for $1000/fiber-mile.  There’s a 
>recurring maintenance fee on the IRU, but it’s peanuts.   I’m betting these 
>prices are near the floor.  I don’t believe there’s a ceiling.  

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 11:28 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

 

We pay $700 per month for a pair of dark fiber about 6km route from our data 
center to one of our sites both in downtown Atlanta from zayo. We run 40gbps 
10km optics. 

 

On Fri, May 3, 2024, 11:04 PM Chris Fabien mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com> > wrote:

We have seen an extremely wide range of prices for dark fiber leases,
it's one of these things where every situation and provider is
different. I have been quoted prices over $100/mo per strand-mile and
as low as $15/mo/strand-mile. A lot of the value seems to be what they
suspect you're going to try to do with the strands. 50 Miles to a
datacenter, you're gonna be running NxDWDM 100gig waves, big money.
Shorter local/metro distance that maybe gets you between your NOC and
a small/WISP style tower, or maybe grabbing a piece of an "island" run
that can't even connect to anything else, much more reasonable prices.

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:50 PM Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:
>
> For those of you who have dark fiber access, what kind of costs do you have?
>
> I'm thinking more of the cost to access these strands? IRU costs, lease, 
> swaps with other providers, etc?
>
> I want some sort of ballpark costs to know what's reasonable when we start 
> looking at this over wavelengths for shorter paths.
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2024, 2:50 PM Chris Fabien   > wrote:
>>
>> Mark, we do exactly this on a segment where we have leased 2 strands
>> of dark fiber on a 30mile path. The ends of the run have 8-ch DWDM
>> Muxes and we have two spots along the run where we have an OADM in a
>> splice case to drop out a wavelength. At those points, we set a
>> handhole next to the carrier's handhole, and they looped the 2 strands
>> onto a 12F jumper into our case, so our OADM is in our case, in our
>> handhole. Just be sure your optical margins are planned for any
>> potential add/drop points because each does have some loss.
>>
>> On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF
>> mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:
>> >
>> > We may have the opportunity to grab 2 strands of dark fiber.  These will 
>> > allow us to build a loop between two points on our network.  We have been 
>> > told we can also break into this fiber within our loop.  I'm guessing when 
>> > we break into this fiber they will just extend the dark fiber into our 
>> > handhole and we will be responsible to figure out what we do once we cut 
>> > into that fiber.
>> >
>> > I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this passively so we 
>> > don't have to depend on having our loop run though a customers location.  
>> > I was thinking of CWDM.  I can setup a CWDM/DWDM at our site and send 
>> > multiple wave lengths down the fiber.  Is there a way for me to break out 
>> > 

Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

[dmmoffett]

>From a non-profit middle-mile provider we pay $42/month/fiber-mile for a 
>lease.  Same company does a 20-year IRU for $1000/fiber-mile.  There’s a 
>recurring maintenance fee on the IRU, but it’s peanuts.   I’m betting these 
>prices are near the floor.  I don’t believe there’s a ceiling.  

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 11:28 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM/CWDM Magic

 

We pay $700 per month for a pair of dark fiber about 6km route from our data 
center to one of our sites both in downtown Atlanta from zayo. We run 40gbps 
10km optics. 

 

On Fri, May 3, 2024, 11:04 PM Chris Fabien mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com> > wrote:

We have seen an extremely wide range of prices for dark fiber leases,
it's one of these things where every situation and provider is
different. I have been quoted prices over $100/mo per strand-mile and
as low as $15/mo/strand-mile. A lot of the value seems to be what they
suspect you're going to try to do with the strands. 50 Miles to a
datacenter, you're gonna be running NxDWDM 100gig waves, big money.
Shorter local/metro distance that maybe gets you between your NOC and
a small/WISP style tower, or maybe grabbing a piece of an "island" run
that can't even connect to anything else, much more reasonable prices.

On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 5:50 PM Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:
>
> For those of you who have dark fiber access, what kind of costs do you have?
>
> I'm thinking more of the cost to access these strands? IRU costs, lease, 
> swaps with other providers, etc?
>
> I want some sort of ballpark costs to know what's reasonable when we start 
> looking at this over wavelengths for shorter paths.
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2024, 2:50 PM Chris Fabien   > wrote:
>>
>> Mark, we do exactly this on a segment where we have leased 2 strands
>> of dark fiber on a 30mile path. The ends of the run have 8-ch DWDM
>> Muxes and we have two spots along the run where we have an OADM in a
>> splice case to drop out a wavelength. At those points, we set a
>> handhole next to the carrier's handhole, and they looped the 2 strands
>> onto a 12F jumper into our case, so our OADM is in our case, in our
>> handhole. Just be sure your optical margins are planned for any
>> potential add/drop points because each does have some loss.
>>
>> On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF
>> mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:
>> >
>> > We may have the opportunity to grab 2 strands of dark fiber.  These will 
>> > allow us to build a loop between two points on our network.  We have been 
>> > told we can also break into this fiber within our loop.  I'm guessing when 
>> > we break into this fiber they will just extend the dark fiber into our 
>> > handhole and we will be responsible to figure out what we do once we cut 
>> > into that fiber.
>> >
>> > I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this passively so we 
>> > don't have to depend on having our loop run though a customers location.  
>> > I was thinking of CWDM.  I can setup a CWDM/DWDM at our site and send 
>> > multiple wave lengths down the fiber.  Is there a way for me to break out 
>> > just one wavelength at a hand hole passively?
>> >
>> > Let's say I have a North/South run of 2 strands going though a hand hole 
>> > and I what to break out 1270nm for a customer.  Is there away for me in 
>> > the hand hole, passively, to peel off just 1270nm.  Put something like a 
>> > 1x2 splitter in on N1, N2, S1, S2 and send those 4 fibers into the 
>> > customer site.  Then install a couple of 1270nm optics in a switch to 
>> > preserve the loop for that one customer.
>> >
>> > Do the optics do all the magic or are there some type of filters in the 
>> > DWDM/CWDM modules?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>> >  
>> >
>> > Myakka Communications
>> > www.Myakka.com  
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > AF mailing list
>> > AF@af.afmug.com  
>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Pot

[dmmoffett]

I think the ADA does want you to accommodate rehab appointments in someone’s 
work schedule.  

…..which I would do anyway.  If they’re working on getting straight I don’t 
want to stand in their way.  I don’t know if anyone goes to rehab for pot 
though.  Probably not.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2024 5:11 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pot

 

Utah code 26-61a-111(4)..

 

"Nothing in this section requires a private employer to accommodate the use of 
medical cannabis or affects the ability of a private employer to have policies 
restricting the use of medical cannabis by applicants or employees."

 

There are also federal court cases where the court has determined that 
marijuana use is not subject to the ADA.

 

On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 10:42 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

If an employee has a prescription for pot for anxiety do we have to allow them 
to partake at work.

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [AFMUG] Won One

[dmmoffett]

“crap job on the aerial drop (too close to electrical service entrance wires) 
but I was tired of arguing”

 

Hopefully 40” or greater.  A cable guy in the NY Hudson Valley area was 
literally incinerated by a power line a couple weeks ago.  The 40” clearance 
rule is there for a serious frickin reason.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 5:45 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Won One

 

Business installs can get crazy with the number of subs who just do one thing.

 

And if you ordered a static IP or block or want help setting up the “gateway”, 
the guy who basically just plugs in the modem doesn’t know anything about that, 
he tells you to call customer support.

 

I got Comcast cable Internet at my house replacing RCN (they really suck bigly) 
and they just sent one guy but he just had a regular passenger car with a 
ladder on top.  I kept trying to tell him no that wasn’t the Comcast drop cable 
it was the RCN cable and I hadn’t cancelled them yet so no he couldn’t just 
steal it.  The 20 year old Comcast cable was all rotten and he was going to 
have to run a new one.  He still cut the RCN cable and I made him splice it 
back.  I knew that Comcast was the old Jones Intercable and they were below the 
power wires on the poles and RCN was the old Americast which was below the 
Comcast cables,  but he didn’t seem to know that.  Or else he was just being 
lazy and trying to avoid running a new drop.  He still IMHO did a crap job on 
the aerial drop (too close to electrical service entrance wires) but I was 
tired of arguing.  The Comcast 2 Gbps service however has been flawless.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 4:10 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Won One

 

It’s pretty common to have drop cable teams separate from the house install 
teams.  I think the reasoning is you can subcontract drop cables, but you want 
to keep the customer facing piece in house.  The other reason is a customer 
doesn’t need to be home for the drop cable to get done, so you don’t have to 
schedule that with them.

  

I can see having a sub who does the aerial part of a drop and another sub who 
does an underground portion, and then your in-house installer comes in to hang 
the NID on the house and run a cable in to the CPE.  That’s about the maximum 
number of ways I can see it logically divided up.  How many steps could Comcast 
have? 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 2:09 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Won One

 

>From my limited experience with them (mostly through friends who have no other 
>choice), their installations are "divide an conquer. They send out a different 
>crew to do every micro-step of an installation.

 

bp


On 4/29/2024 10:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had a 150 Mbps customer leave for Comcast/Xfinity 1.3 G $25/ month loss leader 
service.  

 

He lasted a couple months.  

 

He said their customer service is non existent.  

 

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

[dmmoffett]

Graboids haha

As stupid as that movie was, I enjoyed the hell out of it.  


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 12:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

Always need some dynamite on hand in case of Graboids.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 10:47 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

"Controlled Explosion"   Hopefully _after_ having been removed from the 
house

On 4/29/24 7:13 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
> FROM: News of the Weird
>
> Boom!
> In Holladay, Utah, authorities were summoned to a home on April 23 to 
> advise a homeowner on how to dispose of “a lot” of explosives, 
> including “ancient dynamite” that had been in the family for 
> “generations and generations.” Capt. Tony Barker of the Unified Fire 
> Authority said the collectors did not appear to have malicious intent.
> KUTV reported that multiple agencies descended on the home, where it 
> was determined that they would have to conduct a controlled explosion.
>
> Of course, that's just EAST Utah. Right Chuck?
>


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Re: [AFMUG] Won One

[dmmoffett]

It’s pretty common to have drop cable teams separate from the house install 
teams.  I think the reasoning is you can subcontract drop cables, but you want 
to keep the customer facing piece in house.  The other reason is a customer 
doesn’t need to be home for the drop cable to get done, so you don’t have to 
schedule that with them.

  

I can see having a sub who does the aerial part of a drop and another sub who 
does an underground portion, and then your in-house installer comes in to hang 
the NID on the house and run a cable in to the CPE.  That’s about the maximum 
number of ways I can see it logically divided up.  How many steps could Comcast 
have? 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 2:09 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Won One

 

>From my limited experience with them (mostly through friends who have no other 
>choice), their installations are "divide an conquer. They send out a different 
>crew to do every micro-step of an installation.

 

bp


On 4/29/2024 10:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had a 150 Mbps customer leave for Comcast/Xfinity 1.3 G $25/ month loss leader 
service.  

 

He lasted a couple months.  

 

He said their customer service is non existent.  

 

 





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Re: [AFMUG] Bard

[dmmoffett]

Or in Klingon:
taH pagh taHbe'

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2024 11:44 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Bard

 

(ii) b + ! (ii) b

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

[dmmoffett]

Nothing will ever convince these types.  It would be simple for them to do an 
experiment with a couple of potted plants and whatever transmitter they’re 
afraid of, but if they were into things like facts and data they wouldn’t be 
down this road to begin with.  Facebook and Twitter posts are the only data 
input they want.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Tim Hardy
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2024 7:47 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

 

So, more likely one of these   
https://extension.psu.edu/juniper-diseases - these idiots need to spray their 
plants but it's always easier to blame it on everything else.

 

On Apr 20, 2024, at 3:27 PM, Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

 

I would go with the vent as the number one suspect.  

 

The antenna is probably pretty isotropic.  You would see more of a graduated 
spherical damage I would think.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof

Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 10:42 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

 

No, although sometimes I wish it could happen, so we could clear out the RF 
path without a chainsaw.

 

I look at the photo and see a vent, some garbage cans, the electrical service 
entrance, some suspicious white stuff on the ground, but it has to be the smart 
meter that is killing the evergreen.  Even though the 900 MHz chip probably 
only transmits when polled.  And it couldn’t possibly be the cold wind or dogs 
peeing on the evergreen or they didn’t water it during a drought.

 

Probably this person posted the photo while holding their phone half an inch 
from their brain.  Remember the viral photo of cellphones making popcorn pop?  
(fake of course)

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of David Hannum
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 11:17 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

 

I know that needles really absorb 900mhz, but could this happen?  I can't see 
it at legal ERIP levels?  What do you engineers say?

 

Dave

 


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Re: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

[dmmoffett]

Yeah the vent.  Something similar happened to our boxwood bushes when the hot 
water heater vent was moved from the roof to a sidewall.  It would come on for 
40 minutes or so in the morning when people were taking showers, but that’s all 
it took.

 

It looks like a kitchen vent, but if they cook something most days, and they’re 
blowing warm air out for an hour or so that would do it.

If they live on ramen noodles and Spaghetti O’s then I’d look for a different 
culprit.  So I guess it depends if this a family home where they cook family 
meals or some college boys’ flop house.  If it’s the second one, then maybe 
that corner by the bush is where someone goes to puke up a gut full of 
Milwaukee’s Best every other night.

 

Or the evil radio waves I guess.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 3:28 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

 

I would go with the vent as the number one suspect.  

 

The antenna is probably pretty isotropic.  You would see more of a graduated 
spherical damage I would think.  

 

From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 10:42 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

 

No, although sometimes I wish it could happen, so we could clear out the RF 
path without a chainsaw.

 

I look at the photo and see a vent, some garbage cans, the electrical service 
entrance, some suspicious white stuff on the ground, but it has to be the smart 
meter that is killing the evergreen.  Even though the 900 MHz chip probably 
only transmits when polled.  And it couldn’t possibly be the cold wind or dogs 
peeing on the evergreen or they didn’t water it during a drought.

 

Probably this person posted the photo while holding their phone half an inch 
from their brain.  Remember the viral photo of cellphones making popcorn pop?  
(fake of course)

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of David Hannum
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2024 11:17 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] Killer 900MHz?

 

I know that needles really absorb 900mhz, but could this happen?  I can't see 
it at legal ERIP levels?  What do you engineers say?

 

Dave

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Re: [AFMUG] ASN check

[dmmoffett]

Well this CIRBN LLC is peered with you



I don’t know who your other peer is supposed to be, but I’d make sure your BGP 
connection to them is in the “Established” state and maybe reset that 
connection.  “clear ip bgp neighbor x.x.x.x” or whatever equivalent command on 
your router.  Also verify you’re advertising some routes to the other guy.  If 
you’re connected and advertising routes to him then quite possibly he’s not 
redistributing them.  

 

Lumen does that to us on a semi-regular basis, so we have to watch for that now.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 3:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ASN check

 

So I am reading that right, my peer is up to me but not announcing me

 

On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 2:11 PM Josh Baird mailto:joshba...@gmail.com> > wrote:

https://bgp.he.net/AS40121#_peers

 

On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 3:09 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

40121

can somebody else verify this is only showing one peer, im no looking glass 
master, but it appears one of our peers stopped announcing on the 12th

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Re: [AFMUG] ASN check

[dmmoffett]

https://bgp.he.net/AS40121

 

Hurricane Electric says 1 peer.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 3:08 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] ASN check

 

40121

can somebody else verify this is only showing one peer, im no looking glass 
master, but it appears one of our peers stopped announcing on the 12th

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Re: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

[dmmoffett]

A fair point, but it raises another question for me.

 

With lead-acid if your charger is too small it can lead to unequal cells.  
There’s some rule of thumb formula based on the 10 hour C-rate…..like 1/10th 
maybe? I’m not sure without looking it up.

I’m not sure why. I imagine it’s like resistors in series where the current and 
voltage divide unequally if the resistance varies, but I’m not sure how higher 
current would overcome that.

 

My actual question is whether there’s a minimum recommended charge current for 
a given size of LiFePO4 battery.  

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 4:36 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

 

I wouldn’t go so big with the charger/rectifier that you can’t run it off a 
portable generator if necessary, accounting for both load power and recharging 
the batteries.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of TJ Trout
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

 

How much load? meanwell drs-480-48 are pretty good, if you need bigger than 
10a/480w you can parallel or go to ICT or used eltek j series on ebay, which 
can be programmed for the correct voltage..

 

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 1:13 PM Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

LifePowers have a BMS.   But most people power them with a LFP designed 
charger to get the power into them much faster than a regular power supply.

On 4/5/24 12:13 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> You will need a BMS unless the battery has one built in.  If it does, 
> a regular telco rectifier will do the job.
>
> -Original Message- From: Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF
> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 10:58 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com  
> Cc: Mark - Myakka Technologies
> Subject: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again
>
> I'm finding hard to pass up just getting a 100ah 48v LiFePO4 rackmount 
> battery.  I have a new fiber system that will need a maximum of 3kw 
> once it is maxed out over the years.  This seems like an easy and 
> clean battery solution.
>
> Question is how do I power the system from the AC side on a daily 
> basis and keep the battery charged.  The normal rectifier way seems to 
> be a bit lacking in LiFePO4 support.
>
> I can get a EG4 Chargeverter 48V 100A Battery Charger that looks like 
> it would do the job.  Not sure if this thing is designed to run 24/7 
> at load or if it is designed for intermittent loads to just charge 
> batteries.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -- 
>
> Thanks,
> Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com  
>
> Myakka Communications
> www.Myakka.com  
>
>


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-- 

Thank you,

 

TJ Trout

Volt Broadband

209.480.3122 Cell

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Re: [AFMUG] UniFi AP 5ghz dies

[dmmoffett]

Funny you mention DFS.  I wasn't looking for it before, but the most
recently affected unit was on a DFS channel.  I seem to recall we used to
have a checkbox to disallow DFS channels on auto channel selection.  Was
that removed at some point, or was it a figment of my imagination?  One of
my top UniFi complaints is periodic changes removing settings, changing the
defaults, moving them somewhere else, or changing their names.  So I feel
like I had excluded DFS channels in the past, and maybe I did, or maybe I
just remember it wrong.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Peter Kranz via AF
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2024 3:50 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: Peter Kranz 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] UniFi AP 5ghz dies

 

Something isn't right here, this is abnormal, I would do a deep dive with
the logs (DFS hits?) or contact UBNT support.

 

Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

 

From: AF <  af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On
Behalf Of   dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2024 8:49 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < 
af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] UniFi AP 5ghz dies

 

Do you guys commonly see UniFi APs stop transmitting on the 5ghz side?  I
feel like I'm seeing it all the time.  

A reboot doesn't always get it back, but a factory reset does.

 

It's annoying as heck because there are no alarms or anything.  You find out
when someone reports poor performance and you see the 5ghz side has no
clients on it.

 

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[AFMUG] UniFi AP 5ghz dies

[dmmoffett]

Do you guys commonly see UniFi APs stop transmitting on the 5ghz side?  I
feel like I'm seeing it all the time.  

A reboot doesn't always get it back, but a factory reset does.

 

It's annoying as heck because there are no alarms or anything.  You find out
when someone reports poor performance and you see the 5ghz side has no
clients on it.

 

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Re: [AFMUG] PON question

[dmmoffett]

Since I like to give too much detail:

 

Range

The TDM timing gives you a “maximum differential reach”.  I’ve read that it’s 
20km on GPON, 40km on XGS-PON, and 100km on NG-PON2.  I haven’t read the actual 
ITU specs, but those numbers were touted to be the “standard”.  Whether that’s 
true or not: In the real world, our Nokia platform lets us configure both GPON 
and XGS to 40km differential.  The “differential reach” is the difference 
between the nearest and furthest ONT.  So if our nearest ONT is 20km down the 
line, then the furthest could be 60km.  Someone said XGS could go 100km.  That 
might mean their vendor lets them configure a higher differential reach, or 
that might be assuming the first splitter is 60km away.  It’s a true statement 
either way, but at 100km it’ll be at the razor’s edge of the link budget.

 

The loss from distance is something like 0.2-0.5db/Km, it depends on the 
wavelength. It’s worse if the fiber is very old because manufacturing methods 
have improved the attenuation.  If it’s old plant you’d have to get the part 
numbers off the cable and look up specs.  I’m not sure how old it has to be to 
matter.  I have not seen fiber old enough where that mattered, so that’s an 
academic topic for me.  

 

Fusion splices can be as low as 0.02dB attenuation, but I think the typical 
standard is 0.2dB or better is acceptable.  Connectors vary, but you can say 
0.5dB and it shouldn’t be worse than that.

 

Most of your losses come from splitters, and that’ll be exactly what you’d 
expect.  3dB every time you cut it in half, plus maybe 0.5-1 for insertion 
loss. 

 

On C+ optics you start with a tx power of +6-+7dBm.  Receiver sensitivity at 
the ONT could vary, but -28dBm is typical.  The uplink wavelength has more 
attenuation, but the ONT has a little more Tx power and the OLT has a little 
more sensitivity.  So if it’s good in one direction it’s probably good in the 
other one.  We target -20 so we have plenty of margin.  So we have some room to 
cut it a little closer when we have to, like adding a splitter for a duplex 
that was originally counted as a 1 family home during our planning, or losses 
from repairs, or whatever.  The spec sheet for our everyday ONT says 
sensitivity is -28.5 at BER e10-3, which is an acceptable BER with FEC enabled. 
 So in perfect conditions with a straight shot from the OLT to the ONT and no 
splices I could get 118km.  I don’t think they sell 118km reels, so that’s not 
realistic, but 100km figure isn’t crazy.  Realistically you won’t do that 
because you’ll have splitters.  If you were going to dedicate a whole fiber at 
that distance to one customer then you’d probably do Ethernet with long range 
transceivers.  With that much plant dedicated to them they’re hopefully paying 
a mint.

 

So yeah.  You could design with small nodes close to the customer, or you could 
design with one awesome POP reaching several towns.  Either way is doable.

 

 

Redundancy

It’s possible.  Google search for PON Type B and Type C protection.  

There are some fun little diagrams from Huawei here:

https://forum.huawei.com/enterprise/en/hcip-access-01-gpon-type-b-protection-technology/thread/667281720950538240-667213871523442688

https://forum.huawei.com/enterprise/en/hcip-access-02-gpon-type-c-protection-technology/thread/667281974273916929-667213871523442688

 

I have never done it, and I don’t know who does do it.  I’m not even sure if 
our Nokia equipment supports it.  You’ll spend twice the money on OLT capacity, 
and you’d lose ~3.5dB from the link budget to split the path to two OLT’s.  
You’d consequently spend twice as much on power and all that goes with that 
(battery backup, generator capacity, air conditioning, space).  The extra 1x2 
split could potentially cut the number of subs on the circuit by as much as 
half.  I haven’t done the math to confirm whether it’s worth it or not, but on 
the surface it sounds like it wouldn’t be. 

 

We’ve had bad transceivers and bad line cards, but not very often.  In the 
market I’m responsible for I’ve had 3 transceivers fail in 3 years, and there 
are over a thousand deployed here.  I can live with 0.3% failures on that time 
scale.  I had one bad line card, but it had a dead port out of the box.  I 
haven’t had one fail in service yet.  Power failures happen, but when we’re 
building a POP to serve 12,000 households we’re not going to skimp on 
batteries.  So redundancy would be nice to have, and someone must do it, but 
I’d have a hard time making the business case to my superiors.  If we were 
charging top dollar for an enterprise/SMB service that might be a way to 
differentiate and justify the higher price.

 

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 5:40 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] PON question

 

Mike Hammett kind of touched on what I was asking and why.  I was told that 
Metronet near me had a hut in Batavia that also served 

[AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi

[dmmoffett]

CALEA hasn't been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but
it's one I don't know much about.

 

If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance?  We have
parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi.  There are also
MDU's with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc.

 

My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you're ordered
to do so.  Do you also have to be able to identify the individual?  

 

If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi..sure no
problem.  If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted
me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be
able to tell them it was someone at the park.  At best I could give them a
MAC address and hostname.  If I have to identify the customer that's easy:
the municipal parks department, but I'm guessing that's not what they will
want to know.

 

Will this stuff get us in trouble?

 

-Adam

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber on bad spool

[dmmoffett]

If it's too broken to sit on an axle and rotate then I can see why they
wouldn't want to play with it.  I'm feeling salty today, but for thousands
of dollars worth of cable they should suck it up and do it anyway.

My only question would be whether to figure-8 the whole thing onto the
ground or to take a side off the spool and try to slide the whole coil onto
a pipe.  Either way, proceed to wind it up onto another spool.  Fancy
machines are all well and good, but they ought to be able to put some gloves
on and spin the new spool by hand.  Or bolt a pipe flange to the wood if
they need a handle.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
via AF
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2024 11:15 AM
To: AFMUG 
Cc: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Subject: [AFMUG] Fiber on bad spool

I have some 144 fiber that is sitting on a wooden spool that is rotting
away.  Apparently this spool is in real bad shape.  I'm waiting on some
pictures to see how bad.  Guys are telling me we are going to have to
abandon all the fiber.  I hoping to try to re-spool it to another spool.

Any tips or tricks?


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 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] Security camera experience

[dmmoffett]

I have no constructive input.  UniFi always finds a way to tick me off.  
Their original Ubiquiti AirVision camera system was such a horror show that
the cameras in particular give me a visceral response.  Regardless of how
they've improved I can't forgive them.

I guess their WiFi is ok enough for some purposes.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2024 1:31 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: [AFMUG] Security camera experience

I tried sending this "OT", but nothing happened (reminds me of a 3-Stooges
script), so I decided that maybe it's not so off topic after all.

We want to put up a security camera where it is far enough away, and with
terrain & tree issues overlooking the entrance to our property. It will be
about 50-60 feet above the driveway. There are no lights down there, and the
spot where I want to put it is difficult enough to reach that I don't want
to mess with batteries or WiFi. So it will be a wired/POE camera.

The camera that (so far) seems to meet my needs is the Unifi UVC-G5-PRO,
mainly because it has an ~~80 foot range in IR mode, and the image quality
is noticeably better than the G4 and below models. It also has enough smarts
to act as a "doorbell" of sorts should anyone come driving up.

One downside is that it's WHITE, so I will need to camo it somewhat. I don't
know if the IR is low or no glow, but that would be a major plus if it had
it because I don't want it drawing attention.

It will also require Ubiqiti's Cloud Key G2+ to act as an NVR (and it can
handle a few more cameras should the need arise).

Before I pull the trigger on this, I thought I'd throw it out to the Borg to
see if anyone has any other thoughts or recommendations.

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Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

[dmmoffett]

Agree completely, but I'd consider something like that C-channel thing with the 
band slots that I linked below.  The weakest point on that is probably leverage 
on the protruding stud.  And I guess thinking of it that way, if they took 
something like that and used it backwards by replacing the stud with a long rod 
through pole and then banding a pipe to it, it might be stronger that way.  But 
for my money, if I was going to do something like that I'd put galvanized 
Unistrut bolted through the pole and Unistrut conduit clamps.   

But more likely than any of that I'd use the 4" standoffs that came up in the 
beginning of this thread, but probably heavy duty ones like from Site Pro or 
similar.  I'd put the pair of those 12" apart with fat lag bolts into the wood, 
and I'd be comfortable using that to put a mast a few feet above the top of a 
pole.  

But there are probably a hundred ways to do this, and I'm not gonna say any of 
them are wrong.

-Adam



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 11:04 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

+1

We have used theband-it to secure cables on a tower. It's a great product, but 
I would not consider it strong enough to secure an antenna mount.


bp


On 2/21/2024 7:43 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
> One of these?
> https://www.linemen-tools.com/General_Purpose_Mount_10_x_5_Mounting_br
> acket_p/alu-d-4080-bs1.htm
>
> Basically the same thing as the band-it, but bigger.  It's supposed to be 
> bands around the pole and then use the holes in the channel for mounting 
> something.  I guess there's no reason it wouldn't work backwards though.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 9:47 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount
>
> Similar to this principle but much heavier.
>
> https://www.grainger.com/product/BAND-IT-Banding-Bracket-Fits-3-4-in-2
> LNV5
>
> Hose clamp goes through slots and around the steel pipe. Bolt goes through 
> the wood pole.
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 5:27 PM  wrote:
>> I've been wracking my brain on that description.  If there's band clamp it 
>> usually goes the other way, with a band clamp around the pole and they give 
>> you either a stud or a threaded hole to mount your equipment on.  I wonder 
>> if they took a banding mount and just installed it backwards.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 2:54 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount
>>
>> I like this but pricey but still will likely go with it if I find nothing 
>> else.
>> https://www.commscope.com/product-type/structural-support-tools-acces
>> s 
>> ories/structural-support-equipment/structural-mounts/pipe-mounts/item
>> d
>> b365w/
>>
>> I saw one on a pole a few weeks back that had a banding bracket with a hose 
>> clamp that went around the steel pipe and a long bolt that went through the 
>> wood pole. Been looking online for something like that with no luck. Its 
>> like above with bolt through pole but instead of clamp kit it had a banding 
>> bracket and hose clamp to attach to the metal pipe.
>>
>> Have used j-arms for this before but they're flimsy and have had them blow 
>> over in the wind. Not wanting that to happen in this application.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:29 AM Matt  wrote:
>>> I need to mount a small steel pole to a wood light pole. The kits I 
>>> see online are like $300 range and way more robust than I need. Just 
>>> mounting a small yagi a few feet above the top of the wood pole.
>>> Does anyone know of anything?
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

[dmmoffett]

One of these?
https://www.linemen-tools.com/General_Purpose_Mount_10_x_5_Mounting_bracket_p/alu-d-4080-bs1.htm

Basically the same thing as the band-it, but bigger.  It's supposed to be bands 
around the pole and then use the holes in the channel for mounting something.  
I guess there's no reason it wouldn't work backwards though.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 9:47 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

Similar to this principle but much heavier.

https://www.grainger.com/product/BAND-IT-Banding-Bracket-Fits-3-4-in-2LNV5

Hose clamp goes through slots and around the steel pipe. Bolt goes through the 
wood pole.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 5:27 PM  wrote:
>
> I've been wracking my brain on that description.  If there's band clamp it 
> usually goes the other way, with a band clamp around the pole and they give 
> you either a stud or a threaded hole to mount your equipment on.  I wonder if 
> they took a banding mount and just installed it backwards.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 2:54 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount
>
> I like this but pricey but still will likely go with it if I find nothing 
> else.
> https://www.commscope.com/product-type/structural-support-tools-access
> ories/structural-support-equipment/structural-mounts/pipe-mounts/itemd
> b365w/
>
> I saw one on a pole a few weeks back that had a banding bracket with a hose 
> clamp that went around the steel pipe and a long bolt that went through the 
> wood pole. Been looking online for something like that with no luck. Its like 
> above with bolt through pole but instead of clamp kit it had a banding 
> bracket and hose clamp to attach to the metal pipe.
>
> Have used j-arms for this before but they're flimsy and have had them blow 
> over in the wind. Not wanting that to happen in this application.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:29 AM Matt  wrote:
> >
> > I need to mount a small steel pole to a wood light pole. The kits I 
> > see online are like $300 range and way more robust than I need. Just 
> > mounting a small yagi a few feet above the top of the wood pole. 
> > Does anyone know of anything?
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

[dmmoffett]

I've been wracking my brain on that description.  If there's band clamp it 
usually goes the other way, with a band clamp around the pole and they give you 
either a stud or a threaded hole to mount your equipment on.  I wonder if they 
took a banding mount and just installed it backwards.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 2:54 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

I like this but pricey but still will likely go with it if I find nothing else.
https://www.commscope.com/product-type/structural-support-tools-accessories/structural-support-equipment/structural-mounts/pipe-mounts/itemdb365w/

I saw one on a pole a few weeks back that had a banding bracket with a hose 
clamp that went around the steel pipe and a long bolt that went through the 
wood pole. Been looking online for something like that with no luck. Its like 
above with bolt through pole but instead of clamp kit it had a banding bracket 
and hose clamp to attach to the metal pipe.

Have used j-arms for this before but they're flimsy and have had them blow over 
in the wind. Not wanting that to happen in this application.


On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:29 AM Matt  wrote:
>
> I need to mount a small steel pole to a wood light pole. The kits I 
> see online are like $300 range and way more robust than I need. Just 
> mounting a small yagi a few feet above the top of the wood pole. Does 
> anyone know of anything?

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Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

[dmmoffett]

I know what I would do, but you can do whatever feels right.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 6:18 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

But on the nut, curve in or out?... ;-)

-Original Message-
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 4:04 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

If you're putting that rod through a pole, spend an extra $2 on a square
curve washer for the back side:
https://www.linemen-tools.com/Square_Curved_Washer_2_1_2_x_2_1_2_x_3_16_J682
2_p/h-j6822.htm

What you're describing might be a conduit standoff bracket.  That same
linemen-tools.com site may have something similar if you dig through their
catalog.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 2:54 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

I like this but pricey but still will likely go with it if I find nothing
else.
https://www.commscope.com/product-type/structural-support-tools-accessories/
structural-support-equipment/structural-mounts/pipe-mounts/itemdb365w/

I saw one on a pole a few weeks back that had a banding bracket with a hose
clamp that went around the steel pipe and a long bolt that went through the
wood pole. Been looking online for something like that with no luck. Its
like above with bolt through pole but instead of clamp kit it had a banding
bracket and hose clamp to attach to the metal pipe.

Have used j-arms for this before but they're flimsy and have had them blow
over in the wind. Not wanting that to happen in this application.


On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:29 AM Matt  wrote:
>
> I need to mount a small steel pole to a wood light pole. The kits I
> see online are like $300 range and way more robust than I need. Just
> mounting a small yagi a few feet above the top of the wood pole. Does
> anyone know of anything?

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Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

[dmmoffett]

If you're putting that rod through a pole, spend an extra $2 on a square curve 
washer for the back side:
https://www.linemen-tools.com/Square_Curved_Washer_2_1_2_x_2_1_2_x_3_16_J6822_p/h-j6822.htm

What you're describing might be a conduit standoff bracket.  That same 
linemen-tools.com site may have something similar if you dig through their 
catalog.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 2:54 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

I like this but pricey but still will likely go with it if I find nothing else.
https://www.commscope.com/product-type/structural-support-tools-accessories/structural-support-equipment/structural-mounts/pipe-mounts/itemdb365w/

I saw one on a pole a few weeks back that had a banding bracket with a hose 
clamp that went around the steel pipe and a long bolt that went through the 
wood pole. Been looking online for something like that with no luck. Its like 
above with bolt through pole but instead of clamp kit it had a banding bracket 
and hose clamp to attach to the metal pipe.

Have used j-arms for this before but they're flimsy and have had them blow over 
in the wind. Not wanting that to happen in this application.


On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:29 AM Matt  wrote:
>
> I need to mount a small steel pole to a wood light pole. The kits I 
> see online are like $300 range and way more robust than I need. Just 
> mounting a small yagi a few feet above the top of the wood pole. Does 
> anyone know of anything?

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Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

[dmmoffett]

+1 to both of those suggestions.

*   I've seen plenty of universal mounts attached to a wooden pole
(J-arms, J-pipes, or whatever you want to call them).
*   Rohn WM4 is the name brand galvanized 4" wall mount, but there are a
thousand copies out there.  Just watch out for zinc plating or other BS
finishes.  I'm sure Channel Master is fine.

 

One other thing, you're not supposed to drill into the top surface of a
wooden pole because rain will pool in the holes and speed up rotting.
You're also not supposed to drill the sides within so many inches of the top
(4" maybe? I don't recall).  That's why those pole-top mounts you see are
straddling the top and have bolt holes farther down.  If you put a
galvanized pipe into one of those wall mounts then you can have your mast
above the top and also not be putting hardware at the top.  Electric/phone
companies won't like that solution because it uses more vertical real
estate, but if it's just a light pole then it ought not be a problem.

 

If you do want something heavy duty that won't break the bank then look at
the Site Pro version of the WM4:

https://www.sitepro1.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list
 =1218

https://valmont-sitepro1-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/spec-sheet/HDWM04%20(Assembly)
.pdf

I don't know the thickness of the steel stock, but the Channel Master one
weighs 1 pound and the Site Pro one weighs 6.8 pounds, so I'm sure it's
sufficiently burly for most equipment.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2024 10:52 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

 

Or the ChannelMaster 4" offset wall mounts, we call them W brackets.

 Original Message 
From: "Josh Luthman" 
Sent: 2/20/2024 9:37:59 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wood Pole Mount

Just use a Jpole?  Or an MTOW?

 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:31?AM Matt mailto:matt.mailingli...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I need to mount a small steel pole to a wood light pole. The kits I
see online are like $300 range and way more robust than I need. Just
mounting a small yagi a few feet above the top of the wood pole. Does
anyone know of anything?

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Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

[dmmoffett]

"Telrad documentation would take a whole paragraph to tell you how to change
an integer value and not ever tell you what it does. "

 

Since I'm feeling grouchy, I really want to expand on this story.  There was
a setting for the Wimax firmware on the Telrad 1000 called "Frame Offset".
The manual droned on at length to tell me that it's an integer and you can
set it from 0 to 32, and went into tedious detail on how to use the terminal
menu system to change it.  I asked our vendor support what it did and he
said "we just leave it at 0", but could not explain what it was for.  I
chased that up the totem pole with Telrad, and I think I concluded that
nobody in the North American office knew what the hell that setting would
do.  That one was an illustrative example, but the entire manual was like
that.  

 

-Adam

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 7:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to say that you were a hater.  I'm getting older, so
to act my age I have to do some general purpose grouching.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 11:55 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

I didn't mean to come across as a hater.  The 450 features they have given
us are impressive, in my case a bit overwhelming.  I feel like I just sat
down in the cockpit of a big commercial airplane.

 

Everything you say is true, I just need some quiet time and some brain
enhancer pills to wrap my head around all the options.

 

I hope the money guys aren't leaning too heavily into "FWA is dead, gotta
pivot quick to fiber".  Yes, do new things if you have some advantages that
will allow you to be successful, but you also have to be able to walk and
chew gum.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:38 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

I loved that stats were there and that documentation accurately described
what they meant and what the knobs are for.  I also always felt that Cambium
was listening to the operators and trying to give us what we needed and
wanted.  

If you can read, you can use the product without support, but in the few
cases I did need support it was available and I didn't have to pay for it.
They also never BS'd me about what the product could do, and they never
failed to support a product for a reasonable amount of time..even the 320
which was kind of a dog.

 

Telrad documentation would take a whole paragraph to tell you how to change
an integer value and not ever tell you what it does.  We also paid real
money for support who couldn't help us, and certain people there made absurd
claims about capabilities.

 

Ubiquiti gives you what they give you and doesn't help you at all.  You can
try to get answers on the forum, but the signal to noise ratio on a support
forum can be terrible.  Alvarion VL was a decent product for it's time, but
all their Wimax stuff was garbage.  I'd actually take PMP320 with all of its
idiosyncrasies over any Alvarion BreezeMax or whatever else.  And the list
of terrible PMP products is too long to get into.  There must have been
three dozen stupid WiFi things packaged up like they were something more
awesome than just a stupid WiFi thing.  

 

I don't know what's up with Cambium haters.  Did they actually use it and
objectively compare it to the competition, or are they blinded by the desire
to save a few dollars?

 

Anyway...the short version of all that is that all I had to do to appreciate
Cambium PMP was try someone else's crap for awhile.  If the worst thing we
have to complain about is that a feature shipped before a license key was on
the market then that's not a bad product.  

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:33 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

450m and 450 in general has so many knobs you can tweak and stats to analyze
it seems they should have an AI powered advisor in cnMaestro to help you
optimize the settings.

 Original Message 
From: "Tyson Burris" 
Sent: 2/13/2024 9:23:06 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

Cambium is in a bit of scramble mode with everything going on and folks
breathing down their neck.  I fully expect this to be a free unlock at this
point.  

 

 


Tyson Burris 
President & CEO 

 


Internet Communications Inc (ICI)

739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

[dmmoffett]

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to say that you were a hater.  I'm getting older, so
to act my age I have to do some general purpose grouching.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 11:55 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

I didn't mean to come across as a hater.  The 450 features they have given
us are impressive, in my case a bit overwhelming.  I feel like I just sat
down in the cockpit of a big commercial airplane.

 

Everything you say is true, I just need some quiet time and some brain
enhancer pills to wrap my head around all the options.

 

I hope the money guys aren't leaning too heavily into "FWA is dead, gotta
pivot quick to fiber".  Yes, do new things if you have some advantages that
will allow you to be successful, but you also have to be able to walk and
chew gum.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:38 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

I loved that stats were there and that documentation accurately described
what they meant and what the knobs are for.  I also always felt that Cambium
was listening to the operators and trying to give us what we needed and
wanted.  

If you can read, you can use the product without support, but in the few
cases I did need support it was available and I didn't have to pay for it.
They also never BS'd me about what the product could do, and they never
failed to support a product for a reasonable amount of time..even the 320
which was kind of a dog.

 

Telrad documentation would take a whole paragraph to tell you how to change
an integer value and not ever tell you what it does.  We also paid real
money for support who couldn't help us, and certain people there made absurd
claims about capabilities.

 

Ubiquiti gives you what they give you and doesn't help you at all.  You can
try to get answers on the forum, but the signal to noise ratio on a support
forum can be terrible.  Alvarion VL was a decent product for it's time, but
all their Wimax stuff was garbage.  I'd actually take PMP320 with all of its
idiosyncrasies over any Alvarion BreezeMax or whatever else.  And the list
of terrible PMP products is too long to get into.  There must have been
three dozen stupid WiFi things packaged up like they were something more
awesome than just a stupid WiFi thing.  

 

I don't know what's up with Cambium haters.  Did they actually use it and
objectively compare it to the competition, or are they blinded by the desire
to save a few dollars?

 

Anyway...the short version of all that is that all I had to do to appreciate
Cambium PMP was try someone else's crap for awhile.  If the worst thing we
have to complain about is that a feature shipped before a license key was on
the market then that's not a bad product.  

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:33 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

450m and 450 in general has so many knobs you can tweak and stats to analyze
it seems they should have an AI powered advisor in cnMaestro to help you
optimize the settings.

 Original Message 
From: "Tyson Burris" 
Sent: 2/13/2024 9:23:06 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

Cambium is in a bit of scramble mode with everything going on and folks
breathing down their neck.  I fully expect this to be a free unlock at this
point.  

 

 


Tyson Burris 
President & CEO 

 


Internet Communications Inc (ICI)

739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131 

 

317-412-1540 (emergency/after-hours) 
317-738-0320 (office)
  t...@franklinisp.net   
??www.surfici.net 

 



 

Fixed Wireless Broadband - PtP/PtMP Solutions - Indoor/Oudoor Wifi - IP
Cameras - Fiber - MDUs  

 

Active Member To The Following:

 

  WISPA

  NBBC

 

Confidentiality Notice: 

 

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete this email from your system.

 

No Binding Agreement:

 

This email is not a binding agreement or contract of any kind, unless it
specifically states otherwise and expressly refers to a duly authorized
agreement signed by both parties. Any views or opinions presented in this
email are solely 

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

[dmmoffett]

Your outcomes with that feature sounded marginal.  Maybe it’s not ready and 
they don’t want to charge money for it until it’s more fully baked.  Just a WAG.

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 11:12 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

They do seem to have some headwinds.

 

But shareholder micromanagement is probably worse than stodgy product managers 
having the reins.

 

Developing and releasing a feature and failing to charge for it seems counter 
to a mad scramble to make money.  Unless they are finding that almost nobody 
wants it, which might be the case.  Even if license keys seem like 100% profit, 
there has to be some finite cost to sell and activate the entitlements.  If the 
number of sales would be in the single digits, it would actually make sense to 
just unlock it for free as Tyson Burris suggested.  I would be surprised 
though.  If nobody wants it, wouldn’t they just kill the feature so they 
wouldn’t have to support it?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of castarritt
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 9:36 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

Their shareholders are likely breathing down their necks even harder than their 
customers, so they are also in a mad scramble to make money.

 

 

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 9:23 AM Tyson Burris mailto:t...@franklinisp.net> > wrote:

Cambium is in a bit of scramble mode with everything going on and folks 
breathing down their neck.  I fully expect this to be a free unlock at this 
point.  

 

 


Tyson Burris 
President & CEO 

 


Internet Communications Inc (ICI)

739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131 

 

317-412-1540 (emergency/after-hours) 
317-738-0320 (office)
  t...@franklinisp.net   
  www.surfici.net   

 



 

Fixed Wireless Broadband - PtP/PtMP Solutions – Indoor/Oudoor Wifi - IP Cameras 
- Fiber – MDUs  

 

Active Member To The Following:

 

  WISPA

  NBBC

 

Confidentiality Notice: 

 

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If 
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly 
prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender 
immediately and delete this email from your system.

 

No Binding Agreement:

 

This email is not a binding agreement or contract of any kind, unless it 
specifically states otherwise and expressly refers to a duly authorized 
agreement signed by both parties. Any views or opinions presented in this email 
are solely those of mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of the 
company. If you have any doubts about the validity or enforceability of any 
agreement or arrangement discussed in this email, please consult with an 
attorney.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:19 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

Tough crowd.

 

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 9:09 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Turns out you are right, they haven’t released the license key to distributors 
yet.  I was looking at the P/N and price for the key to unlock MU-MIMO on a 
450m Lite.  My mistake.

 

What is Cambium thinking, put the feature in a production release with a 30 day 
trial license, but not sell the key to use it beyond the 30 days?  And how are 
customers supposed to decide if it’s worth the price if they don’t tell us the 
price?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Tyson Burris
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2024 3:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

Correction to my comment.  I can’t see the benefit.

 

 


Tyson Burris 
President & CEO 

 


Internet Communications Inc (ICI)

739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131 

 

317-412-1540 (emergency/after-hours) 
317-738-0320 (office)
  t...@franklinisp.net   
  www.surfici.net   

 



 

Fixed Wireless Broadband - PtP/PtMP Solutions – Indoor/Oudoor Wifi - IP Cameras 
- Fiber – MDUs  

 

Active Member To The Following:

 

  WISPA

  NBBC

 

Confidentiality Notice: 

 

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If 
you are not the intended recipient, you 

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

[dmmoffett]

I loved that stats were there and that documentation accurately described
what they meant and what the knobs are for.  I also always felt that Cambium
was listening to the operators and trying to give us what we needed and
wanted.  

If you can read, you can use the product without support, but in the few
cases I did need support it was available and I didn't have to pay for it.
They also never BS'd me about what the product could do, and they never
failed to support a product for a reasonable amount of time..even the 320
which was kind of a dog.

 

Telrad documentation would take a whole paragraph to tell you how to change
an integer value and not ever tell you what it does.  We also paid real
money for support who couldn't help us, and certain people there made absurd
claims about capabilities.

 

Ubiquiti gives you what they give you and doesn't help you at all.  You can
try to get answers on the forum, but the signal to noise ratio on a support
forum can be terrible.  Alvarion VL was a decent product for it's time, but
all their Wimax stuff was garbage.  I'd actually take PMP320 with all of its
idiosyncrasies over any Alvarion BreezeMax or whatever else.  And the list
of terrible PMP products is too long to get into.  There must have been
three dozen stupid WiFi things packaged up like they were something more
awesome than just a stupid WiFi thing.  

 

I don't know what's up with Cambium haters.  Did they actually use it and
objectively compare it to the competition, or are they blinded by the desire
to save a few dollars?

 

Anyway...the short version of all that is that all I had to do to appreciate
Cambium PMP was try someone else's crap for awhile.  If the worst thing we
have to complain about is that a feature shipped before a license key was on
the market then that's not a bad product.  

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:33 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

450m and 450 in general has so many knobs you can tweak and stats to analyze
it seems they should have an AI powered advisor in cnMaestro to help you
optimize the settings.

 Original Message 
From: "Tyson Burris" 
Sent: 2/13/2024 9:23:06 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

Cambium is in a bit of scramble mode with everything going on and folks
breathing down their neck.  I fully expect this to be a free unlock at this
point.  

 

 


Tyson Burris 
President & CEO 

 


Internet Communications Inc (ICI)

739 Commerce Dr. Franklin, IN 46131 

 

317-412-1540 (emergency/after-hours) 
317-738-0320 (office)
  t...@franklinisp.net   
??www.surfici.net 

 



 

Fixed Wireless Broadband - PtP/PtMP Solutions - Indoor/Oudoor Wifi - IP
Cameras - Fiber - MDUs  

 

Active Member To The Following:

 

  WISPA

  NBBC

 

Confidentiality Notice: 

 

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete this email from your system.

 

No Binding Agreement:

 

This email is not a binding agreement or contract of any kind, unless it
specifically states otherwise and expressly refers to a duly authorized
agreement signed by both parties. Any views or opinions presented in this
email are solely those of mine alone and do not necessarily represent those
of the company. If you have any doubts about the validity or enforceability
of any agreement or arrangement discussed in this email, please consult with
an attorney.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2024 10:19 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

Tough crowd.

 

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 9:09?AM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com> > wrote:

Turns out you are right, they haven't released the license key to
distributors yet.  I was looking at the P/N and price for the key to unlock
MU-MIMO on a 450m Lite.  My mistake.

 

What is Cambium thinking, put the feature in a production release with a 30
day trial license, but not sell the key to use it beyond the 30 days?  And
how are customers supposed to decide if it's worth the price if they don't
tell us the price?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On
Behalf Of Tyson Burris
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2024 3:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

Re: [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

[dmmoffett]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_time#Operating_systems

Fun chart here.  

 

Linux kernels after 5.10 support dates up to July 2486. The 2038 thing affects 
older kernels.  

 

It also may impact a variety of other things that might have stored dates as a 
32 bit integer.  File system time stamps, database time fields, etc.  The time 
data type in C was originally 32 bit, and changing it to 64 bit creates 
compatibility problems for code which assumed a 32 bit value.  If it’s C 
compiled recently for a 64 bit system then it maybe probably has a 64 bit time 
data type already, but old software may run for a long time.  People are 
already coding for dates farther into the future than 2038 so the issue would 
be with embedded systems that never get replaced or updated.  I’m sure there 
are innumerable examples, but I suspect most of them are systems that don’t 
really care what year it is.  If a negative value breaks it, then reset the 
clock to 1978 and buy yourself another 50 years to get your upgrade budget 
approved.

 

Interestingly, according to that chart, Windows supports dates past the year 
30,000, but the IBM PC BIOS only counts up to 2079.  I suppose the next panic 
will be when 2079 approaches.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2024 3:54 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

 

Someone explain to me why the system clock is a signed integer?

We need the IPV6 version of the system clock.

Also please note that David Mills; the inventor of NTP passed away January 17, 
2024. He was known as "Father Time".

 

bp


On 2/12/2024 11:53 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

I’m not President or a Senator or Supreme Court Justice, so in 2038 I plan to 
be retired or dead.  It will be somebody else’s problem.

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2024 1:02 PM
To:   af@af.afmug.com
Cc:   ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

 

"The latest time which can be represented like this is 03:14:07 UTC on January 
19, 2038," said Zimmie. "Once the timer is incremented from this second, the 
value 'overflows' and goes from being a large positive number to being a large 
negative number. The next second this counter can represent is 20:45:52 UTC on 
December 13, 1901. This is called the Year 2038 Problem."

 





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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

[dmmoffett]

I'm out of the wireless game at this point, so this is all opinion:

I also would have been ecstatic with a gain like going from 3x to 6x, but
your result sounds pretty reasonable.  Whatever signal processing is done
for interference "cancellation", it has to do that processing on every
received frame, and complete it within so many microseconds before the frame
is too delayed to be useful, and it has to it with a size, cost, and power
consumption that the market will bear.  The WISP market won't bear much cost
increase.

 

Around 2014-2015 when we were messing with Telrad LTE I was talking to the
company president about the cost, which was north of $10k per eNB once you
counted everything in the BOM.  His point was that he didn't want to spend
more than needed, but the one time capital expense of the base station
wasn't a big deal in the long run when stacked up against everything else.
Telrad sucked, but that's not the point.  The point is another $2k per AP is
not crazy for a marginal improvement as long as it's at least sometimes
useful and you have the capital to start with.

 

I'm afraid I got out before we had any 450m deployed so I don't know how
significant an additional 1.0 uplink multiplexing gain is.  If it was
downlink I'd take any scraps of capacity I could get, but yeah maybe not so
awesome on uplink.  

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2024 12:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

I think you know the answer, it's $2000 per AP. $2500 MSRP.

I'd pay it if 3x and 4x modulations were suddenly 6x or 8x. But they're not.

 Original Message 
From: "Craig Schmaderer" 
Sent: 2/1/2024 10:40:30 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

$2000???   Please tell me that is not per Access Point?I could handle
maybe that for all of them.

 

From: AF <  af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On
Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2024 9:58 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < 
af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

This sector has a lot of long links, subs clustered in the middle of the
sector, and several Ubiquiti WISPs in the same direction.  So the uplink
modulation is poorer than downlink.  The SMs have narrow beams but the AP
sees 90 degrees.

 

The other case where we get uplink problems is in 3 GHz when Verizon lights
up CBRS on a celltower, but we can (mostly) solve that by matching LTE
timing.

 

From: AF <  af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On
Behalf Of castarritt
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2024 9:33 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < 
af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Cambium 450m uplink interference cancellation feature

 

I haven't seen a 450M sector get bad uplink modulation rates without
downlink getting trashed too unless it was caused by a misconfig on our end
causing self interference.

 

On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 9:26?AM Ken Hohhof < 
khoh...@kwom.com> wrote:

Has anyone else tried the interference cancellation feature in 22.2 FW?
(Free 30 day trial but license key is $2000.)

 

I tried it on what I thought was an ideal candidate sector, but my first
impression is that it helps a little not a ton.  My uplink multiplexing gain
was 1.0 so I figured I had nothing to lose.

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  AF@af.afmug.com
 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

[dmmoffett]

Yeah you only find these outlets here and there because there’s a specific use 
case.

 

NEMA 5-15 is only rated for 125V.  The IEC C13 & C14 connectors are rated for 
up to 250 Volt.  The equipment PSU’s are of course sold internationally so 
they’re almost always fine with up to 250V. 

So if your building is wired with 3-phase, and you have a 3-phase UPS, then you 
can use these cables to run 208V to your equipment.  I assume they gain a few % 
efficiency using 208V for power distribution, and with a lot of equipment a few 
% adds up to real money.  In that data center all of those outlets are 208V and 
that’s why they’re all IEC connectors.  It’s probably the same thing anywhere 
else you find them, and you probably wouldn’t find them anywhere wired with 
120V circuits.  IEC obviously would work with 120V just fine, but there’s no 
reason to since the cord you get for free with every device has NEMA plugs on 
the male end.

 

Yeah, you would need an adapter to plug in a wall wart.  C14 to 5-15R.  It’s a 
$3 item, but you do have to make sure you have one if you need it.  You can 
MacGuyver it with a pair of paper clips (if you want to get kicked out of the 
datacenter).

 

One convenience is the C13 and C14 are the corresponding male & female 
connections, so if your 5 ft cord doesn’t reach somewhere you can just marry 
two of them to get 10ft. That’s a small thing, the bigger thing is the voltage 
obviously.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2024 1:10 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

 

Sorry, the only PDUs I’ve encountered had ordinary NEMA 5-15R or 5-20R 
receptacles.

 

Lots of equipment with IEC connectors but at the other end of the power cord.  
Like HP servers or Mikrotik routers, often with the wire bail that you can flip 
over the plug to lock it in place.  I don’t think I have a single power cord 
that’s IEC on both ends.  Are IEC connectors like metric rack screws now, 
standard unless you’re a dinosaur?  Or are those PDUs a space saving approach 
in datacenter cabinets?  One thing’s for sure, you’re not going to plug any 
wall warts into them unless you have a shorty power cable.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2024 11:57 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

 

Thanks.

Maybe nobody here has had V-Lock PDU’s?  I don’t know if it’s the general case 
that they’re looser, or is it just this particular PDU (or the cord).

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Bill Prince
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2024 10:41 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

 

We had some cords that could get pulled out in a couple of data centers, and we 
ended up rigging a "holder" of sorts with zip-ties. Made it a PITA to pull the 
occasional cord, but we never had one fall out, and we didn't have to resort to 
someones proprietary cord lock.

 

bp


On 1/30/2024 5:24 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com   wrote:

I’m guessing this group has collectively seen everything.  Equipment was 
installed in leased cabinet space in a data center just about 18 months ago.  
The data center has APC PDU’s installed in the racks.  Visual aid: 



My colleague went there today because two servers were both intermittently 
reporting loss of AC input on one power supply.  Both were in the same PDU and 
both were loose.  He checked all the other cords while he was there and found a 
few other loose ones.  He mentioned it to one of the data center employees who 
said we should get “V-Lock” cords.  

I’ve never seen one of those IEC power connectors fall out by itself, so it’s 
bizarre that multiples did simultaneously.  I looked up V-Lock and it’s 
apparently a proprietary locking mechanism by Schurter.  Apparently V-Lock 
receptacles have a cutout on the inside of the wider flat side of the 
connector….the side which is usually up on a PC.  A V-Lock cord has a tab that 
clicks into that cutout, and you have to press a button to release the tab.  I 
don’t have the APC model number, but the cluster of six C13 receptacles on the 
APC PDU does look exactly like this item from the Schurter catalog: 
https://www.schurter.com/en/datasheet/4751.  So it probably is a V-Lock.

So locking cords sounds great, but I’ve never needed one before.   Do the 
locking receptacles have less holding power than the normal IEC ones? I’m 
thinking maybe that cutout could let the plastic socket spread out more than 
normal.  

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

[dmmoffett]

Thanks.

Maybe nobody here has had V-Lock PDU’s?  I don’t know if it’s the general case 
that they’re looser, or is it just this particular PDU (or the cord).

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2024 10:41 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

 

We had some cords that could get pulled out in a couple of data centers, and we 
ended up rigging a "holder" of sorts with zip-ties. Made it a PITA to pull the 
occasional cord, but we never had one fall out, and we didn't have to resort to 
someones proprietary cord lock.

 

bp


On 1/30/2024 5:24 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com   wrote:

I’m guessing this group has collectively seen everything.  Equipment was 
installed in leased cabinet space in a data center just about 18 months ago.  
The data center has APC PDU’s installed in the racks.  Visual aid: 



My colleague went there today because two servers were both intermittently 
reporting loss of AC input on one power supply.  Both were in the same PDU and 
both were loose.  He checked all the other cords while he was there and found a 
few other loose ones.  He mentioned it to one of the data center employees who 
said we should get “V-Lock” cords.  

I’ve never seen one of those IEC power connectors fall out by itself, so it’s 
bizarre that multiples did simultaneously.  I looked up V-Lock and it’s 
apparently a proprietary locking mechanism by Schurter.  Apparently V-Lock 
receptacles have a cutout on the inside of the wider flat side of the 
connector….the side which is usually up on a PC.  A V-Lock cord has a tab that 
clicks into that cutout, and you have to press a button to release the tab.  I 
don’t have the APC model number, but the cluster of six C13 receptacles on the 
APC PDU does look exactly like this item from the Schurter catalog: 
https://www.schurter.com/en/datasheet/4751.  So it probably is a V-Lock.

So locking cords sounds great, but I’ve never needed one before.   Do the 
locking receptacles have less holding power than the normal IEC ones? I’m 
thinking maybe that cutout could let the plastic socket spread out more than 
normal.  

 





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[AFMUG] APC PDU and V-Lock

[dmmoffett]

I'm guessing this group has collectively seen everything.  Equipment was
installed in leased cabinet space in a data center just about 18 months ago.
The data center has APC PDU's installed in the racks.  Visual aid: 



My colleague went there today because two servers were both intermittently
reporting loss of AC input on one power supply.  Both were in the same PDU
and both were loose.  He checked all the other cords while he was there and
found a few other loose ones.  He mentioned it to one of the data center
employees who said we should get "V-Lock" cords.  

I've never seen one of those IEC power connectors fall out by itself, so
it's bizarre that multiples did simultaneously.  I looked up V-Lock and it's
apparently a proprietary locking mechanism by Schurter.  Apparently V-Lock
receptacles have a cutout on the inside of the wider flat side of the
connector..the side which is usually up on a PC.  A V-Lock cord has a tab
that clicks into that cutout, and you have to press a button to release the
tab.  I don't have the APC model number, but the cluster of six C13
receptacles on the APC PDU does look exactly like this item from the
Schurter catalog: https://www.schurter.com/en/datasheet/4751.  So it
probably is a V-Lock.

So locking cords sounds great, but I've never needed one before.   Do the
locking receptacles have less holding power than the normal IEC ones? I'm
thinking maybe that cutout could let the plastic socket spread out more than
normal.  

 

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Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[dmmoffett]

An employee’s perspective: 

*   I’d continue with regular increases.  I have been at two places where 
the only time I’d get a raise was when I had an offer from someone else.  This 
tends to happen at tiny businesses with no HR department.  
*   More than anything else I want a good work environment:  People I like 
to work with, management who know what they’re doing, a product I can be proud 
of working on, etc.
*   Sticking around for stock is a danger for an employee because while the 
documents say how many shares you’ll have, you won’t have any way to know 
whether they’re worth a million dollars or 94 cents.  I’d be angry and 
frustrated if I stuck it out and let other opportunities pass by and didn’t get 
a big payout.
*   An offer of stock from an employer I wasn’t happy with actually pushed 
me to resign.  I work because I should, and I don’t usually stop to think about 
why I’m doing it. The offer made me do some reflection on them, myself, and 
whether I want to be committed to that group of people long term.  That answer 
was definitely “no”, and that prompted me to look for other options sooner 
rather than later.
*   Production based bonuses are good in theory, but I have not yet had 
those based on a metric that I had any impact on.  I’ve been just along for the 
ride on the bonus programs.  

 

 

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 2:12 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

 

I worked for big companies in the 80’s and remember profit sharing and 
Christmas bonuses.  Then we had a period of startups with stock options as a 
huge part of compensation – the idea was you worked 80 hour weeks for modest 
pay but if the company hit it big your options could be worth a lot.  I suspect 
some people hit the jackpot and a lot more got the shaft.

 

My sense is that employees today are mostly focused on the short term.  They 
have bills to pay, they want to know what income they can count on, they 
probably don’t want to roll the dice on profit sharing or a bonus or stock 
options.  Also, Millennials and Gen XYZ I talk to seem to view employment as 
transactional, and they don’t necessarily identify with the company or the 
owners (thanks to companies like Amazon and owners like Bezos).

 

So while I don’t have any hard facts, my guess is you’re doing the right thing 
already.  If you’re inclined to tie compensation to company performance, I 
wouldn’t make it a large percentage, and I wouldn’t try to use it as an 
incentive for people to work insane hours or achieve impossible goals (like 
Elon Musk’s “extremely hardcore”).  And I’d make it fairly short term, like 
monthly or something, so employees aren’t making their families scrimp in hopes 
of a windfall at the end of the quarter or year.

 

If you do experience hard times, reduced hours might be a temporary solution at 
least for hourly employees.  Realizing that with low unemployment, some of them 
might move elsewhere.

 

The good news is that any part of your business tied to fiber projects is 
likely to have at least 5 good years coming.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2024 12:16 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com  
Subject: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

 

My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, adding grout 
machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to a specialized type of 
vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  Almost no software involved.  Just a 
little in a motion control PCB in the grout machine to control the hydrostatic 
transmission.  This is by far my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 
years of running some kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and other 
related antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit more confident 
that these new “durable products” have more legs than the antennas that were 
radio specific.

 

But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product cycles 
for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I do give bonuses.  
I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  Only happened once about 30 
years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And actually nobody was unpaid but I had to 
layoff everyone.  But I digress.  

 

What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are going 
well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  I could give 
substantial merit increases but that plays into my phobia of things getting 
tight again.  Maybe that is totally unfounded.  I know when things started 
going well for Henry Ford he doubled pay and things got even better for him.

 

I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), but how to 
distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same amount?  And how 

Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[dmmoffett]

UmmI think I need to clarify that I did not intend any double entendre
with that final comment.

I was recalling back to a training session where we were to test attenuation
on a connector before and after cleaning it.  One of my colleagues licked
his finger and wiped the ferrule with it.  He got the lowest attenuation
value in the class. He bottomed out the reading on the meter at 0.0dB.  Not
recommended though.  Water erodes the surface of glass, and bacteria from
your mouth might grow on it too.  It was just hilarious that it worked that
well.  I was honestly thinking it's too bad you can't lick inside the LC
socket on the transceiver, and not trying to make any sex joke.  I am too
old and too bald to talk like that.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 2:11 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

Personally, I'd have no objection to LACP on 4x25G links if that's what gets
the job done.   I think you should be able to configure the Arista that way
and it'll just show up as 4 sub-interfaces like et1/1, et1/2, et1/3, et1/4.

With reflectance -20 I'd still go stab all the connectors with a 1-click
cleaner before I look for any issue more complicated than that.
Combo pack on Amazon for $18.99 has both ferrule sizes: https://t.ly/bHMfU
They're one-click, but they're so cheap don't be afraid to double-tap or
triple-tap just to be sure you got it.

At -20 reflectance there's junk on the ferrule.  You'd get an improvement
just from licking it.  Hard to get your tongue inside the female port
though.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 7:04 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:
> Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?
  Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it
transparently. Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:
> My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each
  My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like
that.

  FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow
broken? It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.


- Jared


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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[dmmoffett]

Personally, I'd have no objection to LACP on 4x25G links if that's what gets
the job done.   I think you should be able to configure the Arista that way
and it'll just show up as 4 sub-interfaces like et1/1, et1/2, et1/3, et1/4.

With reflectance -20 I'd still go stab all the connectors with a 1-click
cleaner before I look for any issue more complicated than that.
Combo pack on Amazon for $18.99 has both ferrule sizes: https://t.ly/bHMfU
They're one-click, but they're so cheap don't be afraid to double-tap or
triple-tap just to be sure you got it.

At -20 reflectance there's junk on the ferrule.  You'd get an improvement
just from licking it.  Hard to get your tongue inside the female port
though.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 7:04 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:
> Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?
  Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it
transparently. Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:
> My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each
  My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like
that.

  FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow
broken? It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.


- Jared


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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[dmmoffett]

Out of curiosity, what did the provider tell you about this trace?  The -20 and 
-15 reflectance stand out pretty loud and clear.  If their OTDR has a “smart” 
mode it would have flagged those as failures.  If they didn’t see a problem 
here they might need a test device smarter than they are.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2024 10:26 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 

wow thanks for the detail, I will work with the boss and the fiber provider to 
try to address some of those problems.

 

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 10:14 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

As an OTDR trace it looks really good, but your problem might be at event 18 
and/or 19.   I don’t know how much you wanted to know so I apologize if I’m 
starting too far towards the beginning.

 

#18 is around 100m from the end and has reflectance of -21.36.  That’s crappy.  

The -15 below it is even crappier.

 

A UPC connector should be -40 to -50 dB

An APC connector should be better than -55 or -60 depending on who you believe. 

 

If the distance is correct then maybe #18 is a cross connect panel?  #19 should 
be your Arista.  Start with re-cleaning those connectors.  One-click cleaners 
are fast and cheap.  They only shot this in one direction, so we don’t know 
about the connectors on the other end.  I’d clean it on both sides.

 

The line graph is showing you attenuation over distance.  You’re averaging 
under 0.2dB per Km so that’s really good.  The table below is showing you 19 
events.  An event is any point along the graph where attenuation suddenly 
increased.  Events are either “reflective” or “non-reflective”.  In the first 
column of the table they’re showing you a /R or /N for reflective or 
non-reflective.  You can also tell that in the line graph because reflective 
events will have a spike before the dip. You don’t want reflections.  
Reflections are given in a -dB and you want it farther from zero (i.e.: -55 
reflectance is better than -40 reflectance).

 

(And side comment: reflectance is the same thing as return loss, but in optics 
people seem to prefer the term “reflectance”.  The only difference is return 
loss should be indicated with a positive number and reflectance is negative.  

Return Loss = 10*log(incident power/reflected power) in +dB

   Reflectance = 10*log(reflected power/incident power) in -dB

)

 

Non-reflective events are things adding attenuation but not adding reflectance. 
 Those would be fusion splices, coils, and bends.  

 

Reflective events mean there’s an exposed face of glass.  Those would be 
mechanical splices or connectors.  Reflective events could also be a fault in 
the fiber like a bubbled fusion splice.  

 

All that noise at the end of the line shows where the dead end is.

 

On that test result the only event I don’t like along the middle of the run is 
#9.  4dB is a lot for one event.  It might be a less than perfect splice, a 
tight bend in a splice tray, a slack coil that’s too tight, or whatever.  It’s 
not enough to ruin this link, and it’s probably ok if it stays at 4dB forever.  
There are some underground cases where I’ve seen the same high attenuation 
events for years, but they’re not hurting us and it’s too much trouble to 
access the case to fix something that isn’t currently a problem.

 

If nobody ever said this before: you should clean connectors every time they 
are handled.  No matter what anybody tells you, the caps they come with are not 
“dust caps” and they won’t keep it clean; the caps are there so the glass face 
doesn’t get scratched.  When I’m plugging things in I clean the jack, clean the 
plug, and then treat it like I’m playing the old Operation game:  If the 
ferrule touches anything before it goes into the hole then it’s “Bzt!” and 
reclean it.

 

The dispersion thing is a new concept for me, and I don’t think you could 
diagnose it from this one trace.  From what I’m gathering in this thread, I 
think you’d have to shoot it on multiple wavelengths and compare the 
differences.  This trace is only at 1550nm.  

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 7:41 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 

Ok we got the report back from the fiber supplier. This is new to me so anyone 
can offer insight into it?

 

PDF 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KeIuWHFsiKZHxcmpPiY8PX_-PABl55Sz/view?usp=sharing
 

 

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 6:00 PM Daniel Pautz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Dispersion compensation module - https://www.fs.com/products/65783.html

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:53 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power 

Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[dmmoffett]

As an OTDR trace it looks really good, but your problem might be at event 18 
and/or 19.   I don’t know how much you wanted to know so I apologize if I’m 
starting too far towards the beginning.

 

#18 is around 100m from the end and has reflectance of -21.36.  That’s crappy.  

The -15 below it is even crappier.

 

A UPC connector should be -40 to -50 dB

An APC connector should be better than -55 or -60 depending on who you believe. 

 

If the distance is correct then maybe #18 is a cross connect panel?  #19 should 
be your Arista.  Start with re-cleaning those connectors.  One-click cleaners 
are fast and cheap.  They only shot this in one direction, so we don’t know 
about the connectors on the other end.  I’d clean it on both sides.

 

The line graph is showing you attenuation over distance.  You’re averaging 
under 0.2dB per Km so that’s really good.  The table below is showing you 19 
events.  An event is any point along the graph where attenuation suddenly 
increased.  Events are either “reflective” or “non-reflective”.  In the first 
column of the table they’re showing you a /R or /N for reflective or 
non-reflective.  You can also tell that in the line graph because reflective 
events will have a spike before the dip. You don’t want reflections.  
Reflections are given in a -dB and you want it farther from zero (i.e.: -55 
reflectance is better than -40 reflectance).

 

(And side comment: reflectance is the same thing as return loss, but in optics 
people seem to prefer the term “reflectance”.  The only difference is return 
loss should be indicated with a positive number and reflectance is negative.  

Return Loss = 10*log(incident power/reflected power) in +dB

   Reflectance = 10*log(reflected power/incident power) in -dB

)

 

Non-reflective events are things adding attenuation but not adding reflectance. 
 Those would be fusion splices, coils, and bends.  

 

Reflective events mean there’s an exposed face of glass.  Those would be 
mechanical splices or connectors.  Reflective events could also be a fault in 
the fiber like a bubbled fusion splice.  

 

All that noise at the end of the line shows where the dead end is.

 

On that test result the only event I don’t like along the middle of the run is 
#9.  4dB is a lot for one event.  It might be a less than perfect splice, a 
tight bend in a splice tray, a slack coil that’s too tight, or whatever.  It’s 
not enough to ruin this link, and it’s probably ok if it stays at 4dB forever.  
There are some underground cases where I’ve seen the same high attenuation 
events for years, but they’re not hurting us and it’s too much trouble to 
access the case to fix something that isn’t currently a problem.

 

If nobody ever said this before: you should clean connectors every time they 
are handled.  No matter what anybody tells you, the caps they come with are not 
“dust caps” and they won’t keep it clean; the caps are there so the glass face 
doesn’t get scratched.  When I’m plugging things in I clean the jack, clean the 
plug, and then treat it like I’m playing the old Operation game:  If the 
ferrule touches anything before it goes into the hole then it’s “Bzt!” and 
reclean it.

 

The dispersion thing is a new concept for me, and I don’t think you could 
diagnose it from this one trace.  From what I’m gathering in this thread, I 
think you’d have to shoot it on multiple wavelengths and compare the 
differences.  This trace is only at 1550nm.  

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 7:41 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 

Ok we got the report back from the fiber supplier. This is new to me so anyone 
can offer insight into it?

 

PDF 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KeIuWHFsiKZHxcmpPiY8PX_-PABl55Sz/view?usp=sharing
 

 

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 6:00 PM Daniel Pautz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Dispersion compensation module - https://www.fs.com/products/65783.html

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:53 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 

I spent a few minutes searching on the term DCM and came up with “chirped fiber 
Bragg grating”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_Bragg_grating

 

OK, I’m out of my depth now.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Daniel Pautz via AF
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 4:40 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Cc: Daniel Pautz mailto:d...@webnx.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 

Perhaps pick up a used cheap DCM and see if it helps,  adjustable  preferred if 
not as close to the fiber distance.   Our newest 100G dwdm build (dozen 100G 
optics) very much needed a DCM on it.   

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On 

Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[dmmoffett]

100 gig is going to have I believe 4 wavelengths.  This command shows you the 
level on each channel:

 

show interfaces et31/1 transceiver dom 

 

I think if one channel isn’t connected you wouldn’t get 100G link, but you’d 
still have receive power.  Bends and such can impact one channel and not 
another. 

 

This is just a WAG.  Good luck, sir.

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 8:45 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 


TX Power   2~6.5dBm

 

I am struggling to get this 100gb link up. In the field this link is quoted at 
31 miles. The rx levels are -22 and -20 on both sides but I can't get it to 
link. I take the same optics to the lab and add 20dbm of attenuator to get 
almost the same rx levels as the field and it will link up. 

I have added error-correction encoding reed-solomon per the user guide for 
links over 40km.

So far I have not found a way to change the TX levels in arista, the options 
are in the CLI but they dont seem to change the outcome. For me this is the 
first time dealing with 80km optics or 100gb optics over 10km. 

switch is Arista DCS-7060SX2-48YC6-R

 

https://resource.fs.com/mall/doc/20230531114903y4ljxw.pdf
https://www.fs.com/products/115818.html?attribute=29032 
 =3462585

 

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 8:35 AM Colin Stanners mailto:cstann...@gmail.com> > wrote:

There should be. What does their datasheey indicate for tx power range?

 

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 7:31 a.m. Zach Underwood mailto:zunder1...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Yep labels identical but there is a difference in default power levels.

 

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 8:13 AM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:

Oh, meaning the variance between the two, otherwise identical models?



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Zach Underwood" mailto:zunder1...@gmail.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 12:51:39 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

I got 2x 100gb 80km optics from FS that run difficult default TX power levels 
one is 3.81dBm and the other 2.63dBm, the config on the arista devices hosting 
the optics is the same.

 

Has anyone seen much difference between optic like this? My sample size is 
small due to the optices costing $4k each

 

-- 

Zach Underwood (RHCE,RHCSA,RHCT,UACA)

My website  

advance-networking.com  


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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

[dmmoffett]

They auto adjust the Tx.  I haven’t dug deep into how that works, but I would 
assume it’s keyed off the Rx signals.  

However they do it, it’s not unusual for them to land at different levels

 

This is from a pair of 20km transceivers between two Aristas.  They’re not 
FS.com.  The brand is Precision Optical Technologies, and the OEM is usually 
either Finisar or JDSU depending on the model.

 

   Bias  Optical   Optical

  Temp   Voltage   Current   Tx Power  Rx Power   

Port  (Celsius)  (Volts)   (mA)  (dBm) (dBm) Last Update  

Et27/1 34.73  3.27  62.511.79  -5.14 0:00:01 ago

 

 

   Bias  Optical   Optical

  Temp   Voltage   Current   Tx Power  Rx Power   

Port  (Celsius)  (Volts)   (mA)  (dBm) (dBm) Last Update  

Et31/1 35.07  3.29  67.65-0.69 -1.96 0:00:01 ago

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2024 1:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

 

I got 2x 100gb 80km optics from FS that run difficult default TX power levels 
one is 3.81dBm and the other 2.63dBm, the config on the arista devices hosting 
the optics is the same.

 

Has anyone seen much difference between optic like this? My sample size is 
small due to the optices costing $4k each

 

-- 

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My website  

advance-networking.com  

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Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

[dmmoffett]

I started on Cisco forever ago.  During my WISP times it was a blend of 
Mikrotiks and refurb Cisco’s.

I started on Juniper a few years ago.  It was alien at first, but I learned to 
like it.  Networks are never homogenous….at least not forever. 

And after 25 years of scripting, programming, system admin, network 
engineering, etc I have had to learn a lot of different syntax so I don’t see a 
problem adding one more to the mix.  I wouldn’t have a lot of sympathy for an 
employee  who’s stuck on Juniper or Cisco and doesn’t want to do the other.

 

Call me crazy if you want.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Peter Kranz via AF
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2024 1:51 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: Peter Kranz 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Juniper has an entirely different programming style that Cisco.. most network 
folks like one or the other, I would not suggest mixing them in your network.

 

Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

.

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Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

[dmmoffett]

You are correct.  4x 100G.

We replaced our 204 with the 10003 a couple years ago and I just misremembered. 
 I thought I remembered it having 6 port 100G modules…..apparently that’s a 
figment of my imagination.

 

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of TJ Trout
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2024 2:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Mx204 only has 4x100g and 8x10g, but if using all 100g ports you loose the 10g 
I believe. 

 

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 8:44 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:

Thanks, I’ll have to keep it in mind.  That price point and port mix is not 
that far away from Arista, but no matter how much capital a company has they 
always want to sharpen the pencil.  

 

With an L3 switch the thing that we always have to keep in mind is which 
features don’t use the ASIC because that’s what will bite you later.  Do you 
happen to know how that Ufispace S9510 is in that regard?  Have you encountered 
things that hit the CPU?

 

This may be a tangent, but a Juniper MX204 is hard to compare to an L3 switch.  
I’m sure you’re right that Ufispace switch can hit the throughput, but the 
routing engine in the MX204 can do 1.2Tbps and supports the full set of 
features of the platform.  If I populate the MX204 with 12x 100Gbps ports then 
I can expect wire speed to all ports simultaneously no matter what features I 
use.  The MX10003 has I think 2 of those routing engines (So 2.4Tbps).  It has 
1+1 control plane redundancy.  It has 6 power supplies….and with our current 
configuration I think we need 3 to operate so 3+3 redundancy there.  The 
routing engines are basically 2+0 and we achieve redundancy by using MLAG to 
our POP ring and splitting our upstream connections between the two routing 
engines.  I believe we paid a quarter mil for the MX10003, but it’s the only 
router we need for the foreseeable future for a metro area with 250,000 people 
in it, and it would be hard to have a hardware failure that would actually hurt 
us.  In another market we have the MX10008….same routing engines, but more of 
them (I want to say 6, but I’m not going to check right now). 

 

That said we’re well aware of the savings with L3 switches.  And often the 
answer to redundancy is just have 2 or 3 of them and more or less achieve the 
same thing as you did with the big fancy chassis.  

 

I still like Mikrotik.  I miss the simplicity.  There’s zero chance we’ll ever 
use them here though.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Jesse DuPont
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 4:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Another option. Check out OcNOS from IP Infusion. CLI is almost identical to 
Cisco and it's a great value. OcNOS runs on white label boxes so you can choose 
the hardware platform that fits your needs (what I've ordered so far comes with 
OcNOS pre-installed). Lots of hardware choices from Edgecore and UfiSpace. IP 
Infusion supports others, too. OcNOS is a full featured carrier-class 
routing/switching OS and includes full BNG, MPLS, L3/L2VPN suite, etc. A 
Ufispace S9510-28DC-9N0A with DC power and OcNOS MPLS license is about $8K and 
is comparable to the Juniper MX204 in terms of features, capacity and port 
count, including full route tables if used at the border. On the low-end, the 
Ufispace 9502-16MT with MPLS license and DC power is about $2200 and has all 
the same capabilities/features as the bigger box, just less capacity and port 
count. Great platform. I suppose technically the white label boxes are L3 
switches in so much as the ASIC that runs it a switch chip at its hard, but all 
routing, label switching, and L2 switching (data plane) takes place in the 
ASIC. Control plane is handled by the CPU. Worth a look. We have OcNOS 
interoperating with Juniper, Mikrotik and NetElastic on OSPF/MPLS/VPLS.

On 1/11/24 11:16 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com   wrote:

Arista goes both ways.  We have a number of Arista L3 switches, and also a big 
modular chassis thing comparable to a Juniper MX.

Full routes just depends on the model.  Some of them can’t do it.

 

We started buying Arista a couple of years ago when Juniper changed their 
pricing model.  Good products.  CLI almost identical to Cisco, so it’s old hat. 
 I have no complaints with Arista.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Daniel Pautz via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:00 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Cc: Daniel Pautz   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Is it really considered a router or just high end switch? Eg  does it take full 
multi tables, etc?  what model? I have always considered playing with some 
Arista’s.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 8:00 PM
To: AnimalFarm 

Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

[dmmoffett]

Thanks, I’ll have to keep it in mind.  That price point and port mix is not 
that far away from Arista, but no matter how much capital a company has they 
always want to sharpen the pencil.  

 

With an L3 switch the thing that we always have to keep in mind is which 
features don’t use the ASIC because that’s what will bite you later.  Do you 
happen to know how that Ufispace S9510 is in that regard?  Have you encountered 
things that hit the CPU?

 

This may be a tangent, but a Juniper MX204 is hard to compare to an L3 switch.  
I’m sure you’re right that Ufispace switch can hit the throughput, but the 
routing engine in the MX204 can do 1.2Tbps and supports the full set of 
features of the platform.  If I populate the MX204 with 12x 100Gbps ports then 
I can expect wire speed to all ports simultaneously no matter what features I 
use.  The MX10003 has I think 2 of those routing engines (So 2.4Tbps).  It has 
1+1 control plane redundancy.  It has 6 power supplies….and with our current 
configuration I think we need 3 to operate so 3+3 redundancy there.  The 
routing engines are basically 2+0 and we achieve redundancy by using MLAG to 
our POP ring and splitting our upstream connections between the two routing 
engines.  I believe we paid a quarter mil for the MX10003, but it’s the only 
router we need for the foreseeable future for a metro area with 250,000 people 
in it, and it would be hard to have a hardware failure that would actually hurt 
us.  In another market we have the MX10008….same routing engines, but more of 
them (I want to say 6, but I’m not going to check right now). 

 

That said we’re well aware of the savings with L3 switches.  And often the 
answer to redundancy is just have 2 or 3 of them and more or less achieve the 
same thing as you did with the big fancy chassis.  

 

I still like Mikrotik.  I miss the simplicity.  There’s zero chance we’ll ever 
use them here though.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jesse DuPont
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 4:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Another option. Check out OcNOS from IP Infusion. CLI is almost identical to 
Cisco and it's a great value. OcNOS runs on white label boxes so you can choose 
the hardware platform that fits your needs (what I've ordered so far comes with 
OcNOS pre-installed). Lots of hardware choices from Edgecore and UfiSpace. IP 
Infusion supports others, too. OcNOS is a full featured carrier-class 
routing/switching OS and includes full BNG, MPLS, L3/L2VPN suite, etc. A 
Ufispace S9510-28DC-9N0A with DC power and OcNOS MPLS license is about $8K and 
is comparable to the Juniper MX204 in terms of features, capacity and port 
count, including full route tables if used at the border. On the low-end, the 
Ufispace 9502-16MT with MPLS license and DC power is about $2200 and has all 
the same capabilities/features as the bigger box, just less capacity and port 
count. Great platform. I suppose technically the white label boxes are L3 
switches in so much as the ASIC that runs it a switch chip at its hard, but all 
routing, label switching, and L2 switching (data plane) takes place in the 
ASIC. Control plane is handled by the CPU. Worth a look. We have OcNOS 
interoperating with Juniper, Mikrotik and NetElastic on OSPF/MPLS/VPLS.

On 1/11/24 11:16 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com   wrote:

Arista goes both ways.  We have a number of Arista L3 switches, and also a big 
modular chassis thing comparable to a Juniper MX.

Full routes just depends on the model.  Some of them can’t do it.

 

We started buying Arista a couple of years ago when Juniper changed their 
pricing model.  Good products.  CLI almost identical to Cisco, so it’s old hat. 
 I have no complaints with Arista.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF    On Behalf 
Of Daniel Pautz via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:00 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   
Cc: Daniel Pautz   
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Is it really considered a router or just high end switch? Eg  does it take full 
multi tables, etc?  what model? I have always considered playing with some 
Arista’s.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 8:00 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

While not juniper and with no support we have done very well with used Arista. 
We got 12x 100gb +24 x40gb router that can do bgp for under 10k eaxh.

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 9:54 PM Jason McKemie mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> > wrote:

Is this worth looking at or is it too problematic from a support / update 
perspective? New Juniper is not in my budget.

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Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

[dmmoffett]

Arista goes both ways.  We have a number of Arista L3 switches, and also a big 
modular chassis thing comparable to a Juniper MX.

Full routes just depends on the model.  Some of them can’t do it.

 

We started buying Arista a couple of years ago when Juniper changed their 
pricing model.  Good products.  CLI almost identical to Cisco, so it’s old hat. 
 I have no complaints with Arista.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Daniel Pautz via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:00 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Daniel Pautz 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

Is it really considered a router or just high end switch? Eg  does it take full 
multi tables, etc?  what model? I have always considered playing with some 
Arista’s.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 8:00 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Used Juniper

 

While not juniper and with no support we have done very well with used Arista. 
We got 12x 100gb +24 x40gb router that can do bgp for under 10k eaxh.

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 9:54 PM Jason McKemie mailto:j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> > wrote:

Is this worth looking at or is it too problematic from a support / update 
perspective? New Juniper is not in my budget.

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Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

[dmmoffett]

The issue is if the power supply or any of the equipment connected to it has
positive tied to ground and then you take another device with negative tied
to ground and put that on the same power supply.  Then you have + and - of
the power supply dead shorted through the ground connections and that's when
the sparks fly.  Some people keep the -48V stuff in a separate rack.  That's
not necessary, but it's not a bad safety measure if you have happen to have
enough space for two racks.  It's nice to say 

If the equipment has - tied to ground or tied to the chassis then it has to
be isolated from your -48V power supply.  You can still put it in the same
rack as everything else, but it needs a separate power supply isolated from
your -48V power system.  So you get an isolated 48V to 48V power supply
(Meanwell RSD-300C-48 is one example), or you plug that one device into an
A/C outlet or inverter or what have you.  I have test ONT's with -ground
sitting in the rack with with a bunch of -48V (+ground) routers and it's all
fine because they have their little DC transformers plugged into a wall
outlet. 

Someone said this, but to check if the equipment has a ground reference set
your multimeter for ohms and measure from each power input to the ground lug
and/or chassis of the device.  If you're reading an open circuit then you're
fine.  You're probably fine if you're reading a very large number of ohms
--I'd hate to give a specific number and say that's always safe, but the
Meanwell RSD I mentioned above is 100M Ohms from Input to Output per the
datasheet and that device has not failed me.  If you're seeing 0 or single
digits from one of the power leads to ground then you have power bonded to
ground on that device.  An example fresh in my mind is Mikrotik CRS305 has -
tied to ground, so although it will run on 48V I could not put it on our
-48V rectifier.  Lots of equipment intended for telecom will have +
connected to ground.  Also lots of equipment will have neither tied to
ground and those often work with either +V or -V (but I'd go by what the
manufacturer says first, and by the multimeter second).

-Adam



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2024 11:26 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

I know we have been though this many times and I thought I understood it.

-48VDC is the Negative side being HOT, correct?

It is BAD to try to mix -48VDC and 48VDC 

There is no such thing as a -48V battery.  A battery is a battery, correct?

How about the ICT Platinum power supplies.  They show as 48VDC, can they be
used on -48VDC equipment?

I remember Check saying something about a way to test to see if a piece of
equipment that is Neg 48VDC is truly grounded as Neg 48VDC.


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Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

[dmmoffett]

I concur with the wire color problem.  

* My current employer pays big bucks to a low voltage guy who wires up our
sites.  His work is absolutely beautiful.  It's like friggin artwork. 
He uses black for return (+) and green for ground.  Then since most of our
equipment has dual power supplies he uses red and blue for the "A" hot and
"B" hot.  I assume his employer trained him that way for a reason and that's
probably common.

* I was taught in childhood that red is positive, so that's what I have
always done.  I'm not philosophically opposed to the idea that red is "hot",
but that's just now how I learned it.

* https://ztlabels.com/blogs/news/dc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes
This site advises that for 2-wire DC with positive ground is white for
positive and black for negative.  Someone apparently thinks that's the right
way.  The same site points out that the only color called out specifically
in the NEC is green or green/yellow for ground.  Everything else is just the
convention people landed on. 

Out in the wild you might see anything so there is and will always be a
multi-meter in my everyday toolkit.  

-Adam



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2024 12:01 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

What I can never decide on is wire colors.  Especially when using red/black
zipcord or tray cable.  People expect red to be +, but they also expect
black to be ground (except electricians who expect black to be hot and white
to be neutral and green or green/yellow to be ground).  And how to
differentiate battery wiring from load wiring.  I have not found an ideal
solution other than labels.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 10:45 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

Yes. -48VDC means the negative side is hot, and the positive side is ground
(or return).

You can mix +48VDC and -48VDC if you know what you're doing. It helps a
bunch if the equipment floats logic ground. You need to check to see if your
equipment isolates logic from the supply voltage.

Yes. Batteries can be grounded either way. They don't care.

bp


On 1/8/2024 8:25 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
> I know we have been though this many times and I thought I understood it.
>
> -48VDC is the Negative side being HOT, correct?
>
> It is BAD to try to mix -48VDC and 48VDC
>
> There is no such thing as a -48V battery.  A battery is a battery,
correct?
>
> How about the ICT Platinum power supplies.  They show as 48VDC, can 
> they
be used on -48VDC equipment?
>
> I remember Check saying something about a way to test to see if a 
> piece of
equipment that is Neg 48VDC is truly grounded as Neg 48VDC.
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>   Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Communications
> www.Myakka.com
>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[dmmoffett]

We're still building with VRLA batteries...but that's just the combination
of conservatism and institutional momentum.  I'd look seriously at LiFePo4.
For compatibility with existing rectifiers you'd look for battery packs with
a charge controller and management built in.  You can then disable the
temperature comp, equalization, or whatever other smart/fancy stuff the
rectifier would do and just let it serve as a power supply and distribution
device.  

There's a devil on my shoulder telling me that with Lithium drop in
replacements with integrated controllers I can eliminate the rectifier and
just get a beefy 48V power supply and a PDU.  But there's that institutional
momentum thing again.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 1:45 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Happy New Year

I need to build a new -48v power plant.  Last one I did was about 7 years
ago.  I know things have changed.  Any recommendations on manufacturers?
What are thoughts about LiFePO batteries vs the standard telcomm batteries?


--

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Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] WDM transceivers

[dmmoffett]

Well if that works then a single transceiver ought to work too I should think.  

I can just wait for the right part, so it may be a moot point when all is said 
and done, but I was curious about it.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of castarritt
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2023 10:34 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WDM transceivers

 

I haven't heard of anyone doing it like that, but I think it should work.  What 
I have heard of is connecting a dwdm mux to one of the channels of a cwdm mux 
and running multiple channels of dwdm over a single cwdm channel, but I haven't 
tried that myself.

 

On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 9:31 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Well you’d buy them because there are up to 96 DWDM channels, and only up to 18 
CWDM channels.  You’d still be limited to the number of ports on the MUX.

 

The situation is the CWDM MUX is already there, and our vendor momentarily has 
a shorter lead time on DWDM.  The upper CWDM channels happen to overlap with 
DWDM.  If I took a DWDM transceiver at 1570.01nm and plugged it into the CWDM 
MUX on the 1570nm port there’s no reason that shouldn’t work right? 

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2023 9:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WDM transceivers

 

My guess would be no...otherwise no one would buy DWDM multiplexers...

 

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 5:38 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Dumb question of the week:

Could I run a pair of DWDM transceivers through a CWDM multiplexer and expect 
it to work?  I’d only be using a small slice of the channel, but if the DWDM 
wavelength is encompassed by the larger CWDM wavelength then that light should 
still reach the intended destination, right?

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] WDM transceivers

[dmmoffett]

Well you’d buy them because there are up to 96 DWDM channels, and only up to 18 
CWDM channels.  You’d still be limited to the number of ports on the MUX.

 

The situation is the CWDM MUX is already there, and our vendor momentarily has 
a shorter lead time on DWDM.  The upper CWDM channels happen to overlap with 
DWDM.  If I took a DWDM transceiver at 1570.01nm and plugged it into the CWDM 
MUX on the 1570nm port there’s no reason that shouldn’t work right? 

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2023 9:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WDM transceivers

 

My guess would be no...otherwise no one would buy DWDM multiplexers...

 

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 5:38 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Dumb question of the week:

Could I run a pair of DWDM transceivers through a CWDM multiplexer and expect 
it to work?  I’d only be using a small slice of the channel, but if the DWDM 
wavelength is encompassed by the larger CWDM wavelength then that light should 
still reach the intended destination, right?

 

 

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[AFMUG] WDM transceivers

[dmmoffett]

Dumb question of the week:



Could I run a pair of DWDM transceivers through a CWDM multiplexer and
expect it to work?  I'd only be using a small slice of the channel, but if
the DWDM wavelength is encompassed by the larger CWDM wavelength then that
light should still reach the intended destination, right?

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Prevailing Wage

[dmmoffett]

The act itself is quite short and refers to “excavation projects” multiple 
times.  The stated intention of the rule is to maintain road quality by not 
allowing utility companies to get some cut-rate hacks to patch the pavement 
after they’ve dug it up.  The trouble stems from the broad interpretation by 
the Department of Labor.  They’re saying that a “covered excavation project” 
doesn’t require any excavation at all due to the word “use”.  Rather, if you 
have to be on the road in any sense then that’s “use”, and if that locality 
requires a permit for the work you’re doing then it’s prevailing wage.

 

Some jurisdictions require a road work permit any time you’re doing work inside 
the boundaries of the ROW.  I had a conversation with one city’s engineering 
department about road work permits, and their policy is you need a permit any 
time you have “construction equipment” in the ROW, and for that purpose their 
feeling is that our cable placer and splice trucks count but vans and pickups 
don’t.   Some towns explicitly only want a permit if you’re cutting pavement.  
Some rural towns don’t have any permit process at all.  This variability from 
town to town and county to county creates a mish mash of situations where you 
may or may not be required to pay prevailing wage for the same work in 
different places.  That one where vans don’t count could mean you don’t pay 
prevailing wage if you force everybody to work from ladders or hooks, so 
arguably that creates a perverse incentive to compromise safety.  

 

I’m not blaming communism.  I’d love to hear their real rationale for that 
interpretation, but I think most likely someone was worried about potential 
loopholes and doesn’t really understand how their DOL rules will interact with 
the rules of the DOT and countless county and local highway departments.  I.E.: 
Plain old dumb stuff, not commie stuff.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2023 3:40 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Prevailing Wage

 

Was that a mistake or intentional? With all the taxpayer funded welfare going 
out to the ISPs, I can see a "well meaning bureaucrat" intentionally putting 
the wording in to get some of the welfare back to those workers controlling the 
"means of production" 

 

 

 

well meaning bureaucrat - commie

means of production - commie speak

 

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 8:10 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

There’s a new rule in NY State:
https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2023/a5608

https://dol.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2023/12/enforcement-guidance-roadway-excavation-quality-assurance-act-update-3.pdf

 

'a "Covered excavation project" shall mean construction work for which a permit 
may be issued to a contractor or subcontractor of a utility company by the 
state, a county or a municipality to use, excavate, or open a street. '

 

Intentionally or not, they put the word “use” in that sentence.  The DOL issued 
that enforcement guidance saying it means any time you are working “in, on, or 
under” a street.  Basically, if you’re working as a contractor on a job that 
needs any kind of permit from a state, local, or county to work in their ROW 
then you have to pay prevailing wage.  That’s regardless of whether it’s a 
state job or not.  This does not apply to in-house employees or work outside 
the ROW.  This is going to cause some waves for a lot of us in NY State.

 

If I can get the “prevailing” $54/hour as a lineman on almost every job, then I 
might quit this “Network Engineering” thing and just be a builder.  

 

So where do federal and state labor departments get their data to determine 
“prevailing wage”?  I have never met a tradesman of any sort who made 
prevailing wage outside of when the government mandates it, and I have never 
understood how it was “prevailing” if nobody seems to actually get that wage. 
Is it a selection bias issue like maybe they’re only getting data from large 
union shops?  

 

-Adam

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[AFMUG] Prevailing Wage

[dmmoffett]

There's a new rule in NY State:
https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2023/a5608

https://dol.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2023/12/enforcement-guidance-roadw
ay-excavation-quality-assurance-act-update-3.pdf

 

'a "Covered excavation project" shall mean construction work for which a
permit may be issued to a contractor or subcontractor of a utility company
by the state, a county or a municipality to use, excavate, or open a street.
'

 

Intentionally or not, they put the word "use" in that sentence.  The DOL
issued that enforcement guidance saying it means any time you are working
"in, on, or under" a street.  Basically, if you're working as a contractor
on a job that needs any kind of permit from a state, local, or county to
work in their ROW then you have to pay prevailing wage.  That's regardless
of whether it's a state job or not.  This does not apply to in-house
employees or work outside the ROW.  This is going to cause some waves for a
lot of us in NY State.

 

If I can get the "prevailing" $54/hour as a lineman on almost every job,
then I might quit this "Network Engineering" thing and just be a builder.  

 

So where do federal and state labor departments get their data to determine
"prevailing wage"?  I have never met a tradesman of any sort who made
prevailing wage outside of when the government mandates it, and I have never
understood how it was "prevailing" if nobody seems to actually get that
wage. Is it a selection bias issue like maybe they're only getting data from
large union shops?  

 

-Adam

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Re: [AFMUG] Geolocation updates

[dmmoffett]

One more note on this topic for our mutual education:

We had an IP block acquired from Cogent where we submitted geolocation
updates, but things kept reverting back to "Albany, NY"

That's because Cogent had a geofeed specifying Albany, NY for the whole /19.
We were advised to make our own geofeed and publish it as smaller blocks
because not unlike IP routing the longer subnet mask wins in most cases.

 

So empirically this RFC method does work with at least some of the
geolocation providers.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 3:15 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: Geolocation updates

 

I guess the long term answer to this is going to be RFC8805 and RFC9092.

You stick a CSV file on the web matching your IP blocks to a city and state,
then add a comment on your IP Blocks with ARIN which contains a URL to the
geofeed CSV.

 

The geolocation providers who support this will periodically check ARIN
WHOIS for those URL's and then once they have it they'll refresh multiple
times per day.  

If they have other data they think is more accurate they can use that, but
it lets you prime them with at least the right city and state.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2023 2:03 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Geolocation updates

 

Which services do you need to update when you move IP blocks or get new
blocks?

 

I can't believe they all have their own separate databases.  There must be
smaller ones that key off of larger ones.  

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Geolocation updates

[dmmoffett]

I guess the long term answer to this is going to be RFC8805 and RFC9092.

You stick a CSV file on the web matching your IP blocks to a city and state,
then add a comment on your IP Blocks with ARIN which contains a URL to the
geofeed CSV.

 

The geolocation providers who support this will periodically check ARIN
WHOIS for those URL's and then once they have it they'll refresh multiple
times per day.  

If they have other data they think is more accurate they can use that, but
it lets you prime them with at least the right city and state.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2023 2:03 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Geolocation updates

 

Which services do you need to update when you move IP blocks or get new
blocks?

 

I can't believe they all have their own separate databases.  There must be
smaller ones that key off of larger ones.  

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

[dmmoffett]

Is it likely that AC meters for monitoring circuits or subpanels have a 
standard message format?  


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 10:52 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

Modbus is an ancient serial protocol to pass values back and forth.   It’s very 
open but also somewhat vendor specific.   You can send any message you like 
from A <->B but the two devices have to know what the specific message means.   
Various industries have defined the message content but I would be somewhat 
surprised if a Vertiv rectifier knows what to do with the information from a 
meter.

Tons of information online, and it’s not a hard protocol to code for.   Used to 
do it in BASIC years ago. There are two protocols - MODBUS and MODBUS RTU.  
 The RTU protocol is much more difficult to work with due to timing 
requirements, MODBUS itself is just standard serial at a baud rate and timing 
of responses is not critical at all.

Mark




> On Oct 26, 2023, at 7:38 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> I've never used modbus.  I'm looking at AC usage meters that support modbus 
> over RS-485.   And the controller on my Vertiv rectifier says this in the 
> manual:
> 
> "e) Modbus Protocol:  The NCU can communicate with an AC Meter using the 
> Modbus protocol."
> 
> and that's literally all it says.  Is this something standardized where I 
> can expect any modbus capable AC meter to work the same?  Is this plug and 
> play or would I have to learn yet another discipline? 
> 
> If it's not an easy answer I can take it to Vertiv tech support.  Just 
> wondering if this group magically has the answer.
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Geolocation updates

[dmmoffett]

I see the mention of Hulu on that page.  Someone’s Hulu TV has the channels 
from another market which is what prompted today’s musings.

Will the “IP Admin” at Hulu override stuff?

 

I have a similar list of geolocation providers already, but I can’t believe all 
of these ding dongs have completely separate databases and don’t talk to each 
other.  

 

Also, since it’s now a thing that is service affecting and impacts TV ad 
revenue, I hope to hell ARIN or someone starts a central repository so we don’t 
have to update a dozen different people if something changes.  I haven’t dug 
into all of them yet, but IP2Location wants a notarized affidavit attached to 
your request for changes.  I have no idea why they placed some of our IP’s on 
the wrong side of the state, but apparently they didn’t require a sworn and 
notarized affidavit to screw it up. 

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2023 2:44 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Geolocation updates

 

https://thebrotherswisp.com/index.php/geo-and-vpn/



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 




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From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2023 1:03:19 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] Geolocation updates

Which services do you need to update when you move IP blocks or get new blocks?

 

I can’t believe they all have their own separate databases.  There must be 
smaller ones that key off of larger ones.  

 

 


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[AFMUG] Geolocation updates

[dmmoffett]

Which services do you need to update when you move IP blocks or get new
blocks?

 

I can't believe they all have their own separate databases.  There must be
smaller ones that key off of larger ones.  

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] 12 Volt DC to 120 VAC

[dmmoffett]

In all seriousness I've never looked for a DIN Rail inverter until just now.
https://www.meanwell-web.com/content/files/pdfs/productPdfs/MW/NTS-400P/NTS-
400P-spec.pdf

That one has decent temperature range.  Input from 10-16V which should
accommodate charging and discharging voltages on a 12V system.  It's panel
mount, but Meanwell sells L-Brackets to convert some of their panel mount
things to DIN Rail.  Or just attach it somewhere above or below the DIN
Rail.   Apparently it needs a 25CFM cooling fan added to get the full 400W
capacity in the full temp range.but if you're talking 20W load then
that's obviously not an issue.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2023 1:37 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] 12 Volt DC to 120 VAC

Does anyone know of a small device to convert 12 Volt DC to 120 VAC at
10 - 20 watts and is DIN mounted?

I know there are tons that plug into cigarette plug but was wanting
something I could DIN or similar mount.

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Re: [AFMUG] 12 Volt DC to 120 VAC

[dmmoffett]

The trick is to connect the inverter and charger in a loop so you have 
unlimited free energy.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2023 2:13 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 12 Volt DC to 120 VAC

 

You want an inverter.

 

Depends on your wattage/demand, but I'd start with another ad-155a (155 watts, 
a being 12v) https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2146118.PDF

 

Also assuming you want to charge the battery from the utility, but if not then 
this would still do the inverting (if memory serves this generation doesn't 
require AC to kick into gear).

 

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 1:57 PM Matt mailto:matt.mailingli...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Does anyone know of a small device to convert 12 Volt DC to 120 VAC at
10 - 20 watts and is DIN mounted?

I know there are tons that plug into cigarette plug but was wanting
something I could DIN or similar mount.

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Re: [AFMUG] prevailing wage

[dmmoffett]

I know you know, but Lawyers and/or Accountants are the people for this 
question.

If any of us tell you wrong stuff it’s still on you for believing a bunch of 
jerks on the Internet.  If lawyers tell you wrong it’s on them (at least up to 
a point).

 

In my experience, if you do do something wrong, the gov employees are going to 
be lenient as long as you have a compliant attitude and you correct it.  Like 
they don’t throw you in jail for not understanding the rules, they throw you in 
jail for establishing a pattern of acting in bad faith over time.

 

I would *assume* a 1099 worker above prevailing wage is just as ok as an 
employee above prevailing wage, but you should absolutely not believe anything 
I say.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 9:41 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] prevailing wage

 

partner is not technically and employee, but the partnership is not formal, so 
hes technically a 1099 contractor. he definitely makes over prevailing wage 
though. I just dont knw what documentation i need to show it. Or if i have to 
payroll him rather than 1099, he meets the IRS 1099 worksheet requirements

 

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 8:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net> > wrote:

I don't think it matters how many layers are between the person working and the 
government body, the worker still has to meet those wage thresholds.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Steve Jones" <  
thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <  
af@af.afmug.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2023 6:09:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] prevailing wage

My part er is informal. I have his 1099, he gets 50 percent after expenses, one 
of those expenses is operator pay. On PW jobs am I allowed to have 1099, or 
would I have to put him on payroll? I don't have any actual payroll right now. 
Last year I ended up having my accountant stop submitting because other than my 
son I didn't have any and this year I still didn't have enout to reach back out.

I don't know anything about this stuff

 

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:14 PM <  
coordina...@town.warwick.ma.us> wrote:

Prevailing wage is the state equivalent of federal Davis Bacon.
Typically, your state's Dept of Labor maintains the schedules.
You have to get the rates and make sure the workers get paid the rate 
and then retain the documentation in case of claim or objection. Part of 
my town administrator job is running our town owned wisp.
the only workaround is hiring a sole proprietor or using your own 
laborforce.
David Young
Town of Warwick MA
  warwickbroadband.net

On 2023-10-11 17:03, Steve Jones wrote:
> I have a solar project that's come up for horizontal drilling. it
> requires prevailing wage.
> I don't know exactly what this means from my standpoint.
> to this point I've just been busy enough to run by myself or with my
> informal 1099 partner or with my son.
> 
> I've used day labor periodically but never got to the need where I
> hired them. I'm not saying I pay cash, but people are compensated. I
> do carry a work comp policy for more wage than I pay out.
> 
> what's it mean for me and what paperwork do I have to have in order to
> meet the requirement

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

[dmmoffett]

Neat

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2023 8:06 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

 

I recently paid 45 cents for panels and 7.5 cents /Wh for batts.

Sent from my iPhone





On Oct 4, 2023, at 2:21 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com   
wrote:



I’m contemplating solar at home. 

 

I’m seeing $0.60/watt here if you’re buying qty 10 of 550W panels.  Is that a 
good price these days?

https://sungoldpower.com/collections/monocrystalline-solar-panel

I haven’t looked at panels in some years, but that sounds almost too low.  Are 
they going to murder me with the shipping cost?

 

Same site sells a 6000W MPPT inverter/charger with optional battery connection 
for $1600.  And a wall mounted 5.1 KWh LifePo4 battery for about $1700.  

 

Seems like I could get 10x 550W panels, the inverter, and a battery for a 
little under $6600 before shipping.  NY has suspended sales tax on solar power 
so no sales tax.  I have not added up wire, mounting hardware, or other 
ancillary things, but the big ticket items look pretty dang reasonable.  It 
should produce about $1000/year worth of electricity (based on a website 
telling me 3.79 average peak sun hours per day in NY).  That seems worth it 
even with no incentives, but there’s also a federal tax credit and some state 
level incentives too.  

 

…and NY is ranked 47th out of the 50 states for solar production.  So it’s 
better for most of you.

 

Have we crossed a threshold where it’s become stupid NOT to do solar?

 

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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

[dmmoffett]

Thanks for the tip!

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of TJ Trout
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2023 4:55 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

 

check signature solar, $0.25/w with free shipping I believe, also the inverters 
and batteries are a fraction of the cost you mentioned

 

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 1:22 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I’m contemplating solar at home. 

 

I’m seeing $0.60/watt here if you’re buying qty 10 of 550W panels.  Is that a 
good price these days?

https://sungoldpower.com/collections/monocrystalline-solar-panel

I haven’t looked at panels in some years, but that sounds almost too low.  Are 
they going to murder me with the shipping cost?

 

Same site sells a 6000W MPPT inverter/charger with optional battery connection 
for $1600.  And a wall mounted 5.1 KWh LifePo4 battery for about $1700.  

 

Seems like I could get 10x 550W panels, the inverter, and a battery for a 
little under $6600 before shipping.  NY has suspended sales tax on solar power 
so no sales tax.  I have not added up wire, mounting hardware, or other 
ancillary things, but the big ticket items look pretty dang reasonable.  It 
should produce about $1000/year worth of electricity (based on a website 
telling me 3.79 average peak sun hours per day in NY).  That seems worth it 
even with no incentives, but there’s also a federal tax credit and some state 
level incentives too.  

 

…and NY is ranked 47th out of the 50 states for solar production.  So it’s 
better for most of you.

 

Have we crossed a threshold where it’s become stupid NOT to do solar?

 

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-- 

Thank you,

 

TJ Trout

Volt Broadband

209.480.3122 Cell

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[AFMUG] OT: Home solar

[dmmoffett]

I'm contemplating solar at home. 

 

I'm seeing $0.60/watt here if you're buying qty 10 of 550W panels.  Is that
a good price these days?

https://sungoldpower.com/collections/monocrystalline-solar-panel

I haven't looked at panels in some years, but that sounds almost too low.
Are they going to murder me with the shipping cost?

 

Same site sells a 6000W MPPT inverter/charger with optional battery
connection for $1600.  And a wall mounted 5.1 KWh LifePo4 battery for about
$1700.  

 

Seems like I could get 10x 550W panels, the inverter, and a battery for a
little under $6600 before shipping.  NY has suspended sales tax on solar
power so no sales tax.  I have not added up wire, mounting hardware, or
other ancillary things, but the big ticket items look pretty dang
reasonable.  It should produce about $1000/year worth of electricity (based
on a website telling me 3.79 average peak sun hours per day in NY).  That
seems worth it even with no incentives, but there's also a federal tax
credit and some state level incentives too.  

 

.and NY is ranked 47th out of the 50 states for solar production.  So it's
better for most of you.

 

Have we crossed a threshold where it's become stupid NOT to do solar?

 

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Re: [AFMUG] dumb OTDR question

[dmmoffett]

It’s a 1x2 PLC, and I wondered if it could have been an unterminated leg, but 
usually you get noise after a dead end whereas this trace continued on for a 
bit before hitting a definite dead end.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Trey Scarborough
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2023 3:20 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] dumb OTDR question

 

Could be a bad splice, but if it is a splitter it could just be an artifact of 
that. It all depends on the type of splitter you are using and what wavelength 
the OTDR is. It also depends what is on the other ends of the splitter. If that 
is a splitter with nothing spliced to one of the ends you  can get a reflection 
off of a dead end.

On 9/28/23 8:32 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:

Can you have return loss (i.e. reflections) on bad fusion splices?

Attached trace is a splitter showing return loss.  It's supposed to be fusion 
spliced, not connectorized.  There are several of these on this project.  
Trying to figure out if contractor snuck in some incorrect parts or if he's got 
issues with his fusion splicer.  I'd assume it's bad splices, but maybe 
coincidentally the reflectance just happens to be about right for UPC 
connectors.





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Re: [AFMUG] Blast = Blast

[dmmoffett]

At least a subset of people are stupid.

If anybody hasn’t had any phone calls from stupid people then I assume they 
have someone else answering the phone.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2023 9:05 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blast = Blast

 

People are stupid.



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 




  _  

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2023 8:41:28 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Blast = Blast

You're serious? Our customers receive at least 2 emails from us every month. An 
invoice and a receipt. Plus they'll see an electronic payment on their card or 
bank account.

 

Not sure why someone wouldn't know who their provider is. Same with cellphone, 
power, gas, other utilities, etc. 

 

 

On Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 3:04 PM Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> > wrote:

>Most people should know who their provider is. 

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

On Sat, Sep 23, 2023 at 10:19 AM Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> > wrote:

Why would you say "I don't know"?

 

Tell them to call their ISP. You don't know who it is by name but you can at 
least tell them to look it up. Most people should know who their provider is. 
I'm also surprised their router doesn't have a sticker on it with the provider 
logo and contact info. 

 

On Fri, Sep 22, 2023, 2:58 PM Nate Burke mailto:n...@blastcomm.com> > wrote:

I've had 3 people calls us now (Blastcomm), with the Calix 'Gigaspire 
blast' router, because we're blast, and it says blast on the router, so 
why can't we help them.  They're all from South Carolina so far.

"I'm sorry, I can't help you, I'm in Chicago"

"Then who do I call?  My WIFI doesn't work, and it says Blast on the 
router."

"Who do you pay?"

"I don't know"


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Re: [AFMUG] OTU4 equipment?

[dmmoffett]

https://www.fs.com/c/100g-qsfp28-1159?c_site=community 

 
_ctype=knowledge_from=wordlink_cat=BMCS220033-100G_Modules-Wiki_rel=21493&_gl=1%2aqf87kv%2a_gcl_au%2aMjIyODM1NzExLjE2OTI2Mjc0OTk.

 

I haven’t done it….but my impression is a dual mode QSFP28 such as the above 
can connect OTU4 to an ethernet switch.  There are cheaper ones out there than 
FS.  There’s now a Mikrotik with QSFP28 ports…..and probably other low cost 
vendors are getting into it as well.

So I believe you could get one of these dual mode transceivers into a switch or 
router of choice and then use SFP+ for your 10g paths.

 

Again, haven’t actually encountered OTU4 in the wild, I hope some smart guy 
will correct me if I’m mistaken.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of TJ Trout
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2023 11:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] OTU4 equipment?

 

What are some of the more 'inexpensive' ways to break a OTU4 carrier down to 
multiple 10g ethernet? Looking at aggregating a bunch of 10g waves back to our 
DC on a single XC using OTU4 provided by the carrier?

 

TJ

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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP4600

[dmmoffett]

Maybe I need a sarcasm filter.  

Nobody should do any of this, these are not serious “solutions”, and there’s no 
“EIRP Problem”.  The EIRP limit (and other rules) are there to protect 
incumbent licensed operators who have invested a small fortune into radio 
equipment they are relying on to provide critical communication services as 
well as to protect the new unlicensed users from harming each other.  Anybody 
who does any of the things in those bullet points should be flogged.

 

….but there’s also nothing new here.  People will misconfigure EIRP and install 
bigger antennas out of ignorance even if they’re an upright citizen.  Hell I’m 
getting the impression from Peter Kranz’s original question that he didn’t even 
know there was an EIRP limit.  So that’s exhibit A.  The people who would use 
hacked or international radios know exactly what they’re doing and if they 
don’t already know how to get them then they’ll learn it from Reddit, or from 
shady vendors, or they’ll figure it out by accident when they buy a foreign 
model off EBay.   Or they’re already doing it.

 

My point is 6ghz is not going to be safe for licensed PTP anymore.  Maybe I’m 
being pessimistic about it.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of TJ Trout
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2023 5:29 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EPMP4600

 

I'm baffled that you would even propose or share that information

 

 

 

On Wed, Sep 6, 2023, 1:56 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:

The industry already has solutions to the EIRP problem.

 

*   Buy international units set to follow the rules in Russia or Hong Kong 
and then you can run any channel you want at whatever power you want.
*   Alter the firmware on a US unit to enable rules for another country or 
maybe put it in an engineering test mode with no limitations.
*   “Misconfigure” the antenna gain so you can turn up the Tx power.
*   If antenna gain can’t be adjusted in the config, then buy integrated 
units with small antennas and then run pigtails off the circuit board to a 
bigger antenna 

 

You shouldn’t really do any of this, but all of those “solutions” have been 
seen in the wild.  For awhile you could factory reset AirMax gear and then on 
first login just pick whatever country you wanted.  I knew a guy who did that 
for all of his PTP links and I got him in trouble with his boss.  Or at least 
his boss pretended he was in trouble, but for all I know maybe they started 
laughing together as soon as I was out of the room.  

 

If I had 6ghz licensed links right now I would be coming up with contingency 
plans for if/when they get trashed by some jabroni.  Like the private pool is 
about to become a public pool and you know all the neighborhood kids are gonna 
pee in it.  It might be time to look for another pool.  Just saying.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of castarritt
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2023 3:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EPMP4600

 

36dbm is max for 6ghz, and that is assuming an SM with built in GPS.  SMs 
without GPS will be limited to 30dbm.  I haven't used any Mimosa, but I bet 
they will limit it to the same EIRP if you set them up with the correct antenna 
gain.

 

On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 1:56 PM Peter Kranz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

I currently have a few experimental 6Ghz licenses, where we have been trialing 
the Mimosa A6 equipment. So far the A6 has not been super stable, although the 
performance when it is stable was exciting at > 800 Mbps for subs. Also has 
problems with timing for customers past 5 miles or so.

 

Anyway, I’m thinking of switching gears to Cambium’s 4600 platform to have 
something more stable. Am I correct in that Cambium is limiting the EIRP of the 
SMs to 36db? So the 25db subscriber dish transmits into the dish at +11?

 

This sounds like the solution is limited to about 4-5 miles as a result.. Am I 
missing something here? 

 

Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

 

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Re: [AFMUG] EPMP4600

[dmmoffett]

The industry already has solutions to the EIRP problem.

 

*   Buy international units set to follow the rules in Russia or Hong Kong 
and then you can run any channel you want at whatever power you want.
*   Alter the firmware on a US unit to enable rules for another country or 
maybe put it in an engineering test mode with no limitations.
*   “Misconfigure” the antenna gain so you can turn up the Tx power.
*   If antenna gain can’t be adjusted in the config, then buy integrated 
units with small antennas and then run pigtails off the circuit board to a 
bigger antenna 

 

You shouldn’t really do any of this, but all of those “solutions” have been 
seen in the wild.  For awhile you could factory reset AirMax gear and then on 
first login just pick whatever country you wanted.  I knew a guy who did that 
for all of his PTP links and I got him in trouble with his boss.  Or at least 
his boss pretended he was in trouble, but for all I know maybe they started 
laughing together as soon as I was out of the room.  

 

If I had 6ghz licensed links right now I would be coming up with contingency 
plans for if/when they get trashed by some jabroni.  Like the private pool is 
about to become a public pool and you know all the neighborhood kids are gonna 
pee in it.  It might be time to look for another pool.  Just saying.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of castarritt
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2023 3:03 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] EPMP4600

 

36dbm is max for 6ghz, and that is assuming an SM with built in GPS.  SMs 
without GPS will be limited to 30dbm.  I haven't used any Mimosa, but I bet 
they will limit it to the same EIRP if you set them up with the correct antenna 
gain.

 

On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 1:56 PM Peter Kranz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

I currently have a few experimental 6Ghz licenses, where we have been trialing 
the Mimosa A6 equipment. So far the A6 has not been super stable, although the 
performance when it is stable was exciting at > 800 Mbps for subs. Also has 
problems with timing for customers past 5 miles or so.

 

Anyway, I’m thinking of switching gears to Cambium’s 4600 platform to have 
something more stable. Am I correct in that Cambium is limiting the EIRP of the 
SMs to 36db? So the 25db subscriber dish transmits into the dish at +11?

 

This sounds like the solution is limited to about 4-5 miles as a result.. Am I 
missing something here? 

 

Peter Kranz
  www.UnwiredLtd.com
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
  pkr...@unwiredltd.com

 

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Re: [AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

[dmmoffett]

I appreciate the input, thank you!

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2023 7:30 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

 

265V is a common top voltage threshold, but you'll need to look at the 
equipment specs. 

 

The US grid is specified to produce 120/240V +-5%.  So 240 could be up to 254V 
and still be in spec. (240V+12V)

 

Equipment is supposed to accept at least +-10%, so up to 264V.  (240V+24V).

 

Personally I'd set the threshold at at least 255V.

 

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 4:09 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:

Do any of you smart guys know how far out of whack does AC voltage have to be 
to cause trouble? 

 

We have an NMS monitoring rectifier input voltage and it’s current alarm 
threshold is 250V.  Occasionally that goes off and everyone ignores it.  I’d 
like to set an alarm threshold where we should actually be alarmed about it.  

 

The Vertiv rectifier spec sheets claim we get full efficiency up to 300VAC, and 
the alarm threshold in their default config is 326V.   So I’m not so concerned 
about those.  There’s probably other stuff on fire before the rectifier gives a 
hoot, but the other stuff might matter.  We usually have an air conditioner 
separate from the rectifier, and occasionally in places there’s a UPS with 
something on it that can’t run on DC.  

 

-Adam

 

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[AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

[dmmoffett]

Do any of you smart guys know how far out of whack does AC voltage have to
be to cause trouble? 

 

We have an NMS monitoring rectifier input voltage and it's current alarm
threshold is 250V.  Occasionally that goes off and everyone ignores it.  I'd
like to set an alarm threshold where we should actually be alarmed about it.


 

The Vertiv rectifier spec sheets claim we get full efficiency up to 300VAC,
and the alarm threshold in their default config is 326V.   So I'm not so
concerned about those.  There's probably other stuff on fire before the
rectifier gives a hoot, but the other stuff might matter.  We usually have
an air conditioner separate from the rectifier, and occasionally in places
there's a UPS with something on it that can't run on DC.  

 

-Adam

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[dmmoffett]

That makes me wonder if the other guys’ “10gig” surge suppressor is going to 
break what I plug into it.

I’ll tell you, compared to any other ethernet surge suppressor the 10gig model 
they sell has almost nothing in it.  If it works, it’s got to be the most 
minimal protection imaginable.  

This is probably another point in favor of separate power+fiber for outdoor 
equipment.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: ch...@go-mtc.com  
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:14 PM
To: dmmoff...@gmail.com; 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

I have not.  It is nearly impossible for a surge suppressor to pass full CAT6 
standards.  The jacks are not even able to pass with no components.  

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 8:27 PM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com   

Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

Have you played with multi-gig ethernet?

A certain “brand T” has a model of 10gig surge suppressor and it has very few 
components compared to their prior models.  I was wondering if 10G is too 
sensitive to put more components in the line.

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 9:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

All CAT6 in our product line are 100% GDT.  Anything that says GIGE has solid 
state and GDT.  I would recommend CAT6 for everything.  

 

 

 

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 6:22 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are 
recommended for general use?  

 

I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.  Guessing 
the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at the expense 
of reaction time. 

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Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 0.02...

[dmmoffett]

Have you played with multi-gig ethernet?

A certain “brand T” has a model of 10gig surge suppressor and it has very few 
components compared to their prior models.  I was wondering if 10G is too 
sensitive to put more components in the line.

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 9:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

All CAT6 in our product line are 100% GDT.  Anything that says GIGE has solid 
state and GDT.  I would recommend CAT6 for everything.  

 

 

 

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 6:22 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] Question for Chuck, and anyone wise who wants to add their 
0.02...

 

Which of the MTC CAT6 surge suppressors that fit in the APC racks are 
recommended for general use?  

 

I see a Gas discharge and semiconductor diode version on the website.  Guessing 
the GDT version is more robust and less likely to cause errors at the expense 
of reaction time. 

  _  

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Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can save you 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet 
inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you do 
because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.

 

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, but 
I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable company 
and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still 
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you do it.  And 
I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers 
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when the 
electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, but 
doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole

 

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than the 
48 volts? If you have 4 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

Definitely worth asking about.
They have done unmetered service here in the past for CATV amps, but I think 
NYSEG told us they aren't doing any new ones.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

The term that got us cheap power was "unmetered CATV power supply".
They allow connection of a fixed capacity power supply unit with no meter, just 
a small disconnect and drop a 120V 10AWG service and bill us based on half of 
the power supply's nameplate capacity.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 3:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
> Some places have what is called a “street light tariff” that is about as low 
> as you can get.
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:38 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be 
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design 
> around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we 
> only get a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And 
> obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that 
> on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of 
> panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be 
> allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain 
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let 
> us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the 
> pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an 
> outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let 
> you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow 
> it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) 
> so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
> service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, 
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable 
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today 
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you 
> do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve 
> run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, 
> or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for 
> the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, 
> but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our 
> own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they 
> decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the 
> customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something we 
> can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast. So 
> Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of 
> batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs losing 
> the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain 
> them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  
> wrote:
>
> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them 
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
> 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet 
inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you do 
because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.

 

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, but 
I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable company 
and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still 
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you do it.  And 
I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers 
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when the 
electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, but 
doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole

 

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than the 
48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com  ] On 
Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] sector antennas: Dual band, Single input

[dmmoffett]

Aaaannd the Air802 one is V-Pol only.  It does have a combined input, but
single polarity.  
So I guess my only option is L-Com/Hyperlink at the moment.

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: sector antennas: Dual band, Single input

 

Bah..I can't read.  I sent the wrong L-Com link a minute ago. 

https://www.l-com.com/Images/Downloadables/Datasheets/ds_HG2458-15DP-090.pdf

 

I initially linked to a V-Pol antenna.  THIS is the one.  And they don't
have a special name for it.  On the spec sheet it says "Dual Polarity / Dual
Frequency feed system in single enclosure" 

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:38 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: sector antennas: Dual band, Single input

 

Ruckus T350SE has 2 external antenna connectors for a dual band 2x2 AP.  It
seems they're combining the output of both frequencies onto one connector so
they only need two instead of four.  

 

So I'm looking for dual band sector antennas where 5ghz and 2ghz are on the
same connector.  They exist, but pickins are slim.

 

*   Ruckus sells one, but it's only 120 degree and gain isn't all that
great.
*   L-Com has a 5 foot tall monster:
https://www.l-com.com/Images/Downloadables/Datasheets/ds_HG2458-15DP-090.pdf

 

*   This company I've never heard of has one:
https://www.air802.com/sector-antenna-dual-band-2.4-and-5.1-to-5.8-ghz-dual-
band-two-n-connectors.html

 

I'm not even sure if there's an agreed upon terminology for this.  L-Com is
calling it "Dual Band, Dual Feed", and Air802 is calling it "Dual Band, two
N connectors". 

Air802 is smaller than L-Com, but claims higher gain...not sure if they're
getting creative with measuring gain or if L-Com's just has a bulky design.
I'm curious if anyone can vouch for that vendor.  Feel free to slam them
too, we don't need to be shy here. 

 

Has anyone crossed this bridge already?  Are there more options out there? 

 

-Adam

 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] sector antennas: Dual band, Single input

[dmmoffett]

Bah..I can't read.  I sent the wrong L-Com link a minute ago. 

https://www.l-com.com/Images/Downloadables/Datasheets/ds_HG2458-15DP-090.pdf

 

I initially linked to a V-Pol antenna.  THIS is the one.  And they don't
have a special name for it.  On the spec sheet it says "Dual Polarity / Dual
Frequency feed system in single enclosure" 

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 4:38 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: sector antennas: Dual band, Single input

 

Ruckus T350SE has 2 external antenna connectors for a dual band 2x2 AP.  It
seems they're combining the output of both frequencies onto one connector so
they only need two instead of four.  

 

So I'm looking for dual band sector antennas where 5ghz and 2ghz are on the
same connector.  They exist, but pickins are slim.

 

*   Ruckus sells one, but it's only 120 degree and gain isn't all that
great.
*   L-Com has a 5 foot tall monster:
https://www.l-com.com/Images/Downloadables/Datasheets/ds_HG2458-15DP-090.pdf

 

*   This company I've never heard of has one:
https://www.air802.com/sector-antenna-dual-band-2.4-and-5.1-to-5.8-ghz-dual-
band-two-n-connectors.html

 

I'm not even sure if there's an agreed upon terminology for this.  L-Com is
calling it "Dual Band, Dual Feed", and Air802 is calling it "Dual Band, two
N connectors". 

Air802 is smaller than L-Com, but claims higher gain...not sure if they're
getting creative with measuring gain or if L-Com's just has a bulky design.
I'm curious if anyone can vouch for that vendor.  Feel free to slam them
too, we don't need to be shy here. 

 

Has anyone crossed this bridge already?  Are there more options out there? 

 

-Adam

 

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[AFMUG] sector antennas: Dual band, Single input

[dmmoffett]

Ruckus T350SE has 2 external antenna connectors for a dual band 2x2 AP.  It
seems they're combining the output of both frequencies onto one connector so
they only need two instead of four.  

 

So I'm looking for dual band sector antennas where 5ghz and 2ghz are on the
same connector.  They exist, but pickins are slim.

 

*   Ruckus sells one, but it's only 120 degree and gain isn't all that
great.
*   L-Com has a 5 foot tall monster:
https://www.l-com.com/Images/Downloadables/Datasheets/ds_HG2458-14P-090.pdf
*   This company I've never heard of has one:
https://www.air802.com/sector-antenna-dual-band-2.4-and-5.1-to-5.8-ghz-dual-
band-two-n-connectors.html

 

I'm not even sure if there's an agreed upon terminology for this.  L-Com is
calling it "Dual Band, Dual Feed", and Air802 is calling it "Dual Band, two
N connectors". 

Air802 is smaller than L-Com, but claims higher gain...not sure if they're
getting creative with measuring gain or if L-Com's just has a bulky design.
I'm curious if anyone can vouch for that vendor.  Feel free to slam them
too, we don't need to be shy here. 

 

Has anyone crossed this bridge already?  Are there more options out there? 

 

-Adam

 

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Re: [AFMUG] CE+T Power Sierra 10

[dmmoffett]

I think CE+T is pretty uncommon in the USA.  

We have one inverter supplied by a low voltage contractor.  It's really
nice, but no idea what it cost.  They usually quote us one line item for
materials.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Peter Kranz via AF
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2023 8:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Peter Kranz 
Subject: [AFMUG] CE+T Power Sierra 10

 

Anyone other than me end up using CE+T Power Sierra 10 shelves for their DC
Power solution? I got a new sales guy recently and he is doubling the price,
says the previous sales guy quotes us incorrectly.. Looking for someone else
with a recent invoice. These things work awesome, but they are not worth
200% more than my previous purchases.

 

 



 

 

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com  
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com  

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners

[dmmoffett]

(continued)

Or maybe there's a pully at each end of the row and a loop of steel cable
drags the machine back and forth.  DC- comes through the steel cable and
DC+/ground is the aluminum frame of the solar panel.  Or switch polarity
around if there's a reason to, I'm assuming a positive ground because the
panel mounting hardware must touch the earth.  It only needs enough power to
spin the brushes because the cable system pulls it along.  Maybe the cable
is just a cable and you have a separate power rail.

Maybe the brushes don't even need to spin.  Just have the cable system drag
a broom across the row.  Sweep it back and forth several times if one pass
isn't enough.  Mount the broom at an angle with the top end leading and then
dust will tend to fall off the bottom of the panel rather than dragging all
the way to the end. 

OR have an air hose across the top of the panel with wide angle nozzles
along the way facing towards the panel.  Have a DC compressor suck a little
power off the solar system to fill its tank.  A couple times a day a
solenoid valve on a timer opens up and the panels get blasted with air.
That stops the brush dragging any sand that might scour up the glass.
Compressed air might work for snow too.  

Building a robot is probably fun and all, but I just feel like there are a
bunch of simple ways to do dust off the panels.  IMO, for something that has
to be maintained over time simple is usually best.  And how much did they
spend developing a robot vs what they would spend on some air hose and a
solenoid valve?  Could the robot actually be better enough to justify
whatever it costs? 

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2023 10:27 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners

In short, it's a rechargeable thing that sits in it's docking station during
the day.  At night it rolls out along a row of panels and brushes them all
off, then moves from row to row and eventually returns to its docking
station.  

That's a very slick system, but I think it could be a lot simpler.  Get
brush rolls for vacuum cleaners and put a row of them on an axle as long as
the width of the panels.  Have a machine roll along the panels and spin the
brushes along the way.  It could carry a reel of power cord along with it.
A belt and pulley sets the speed of the cord reel to sync with the wheels
moving the thing along the panel, or it could be a spring loaded reel and
just have enough traction and torque to pay out the whole thing.  Don't try
to have it move from row to row, just install one on each row.  No
intelligence, no batteries, no charging station, no software.  An IR sensor
at the end of the panel row triggers it to reverse direction and go back to
home.  An IR sensor at the home position triggers it to stop.  If motor is
over current, shut down and set an alarm relay.  Over current should cover
most of the crises that might develop, like the cord being caught, stuck
wheels, or something jamming the brushes.  Put a simple 3-sided weather
housing at the home position.

In the deluxe model add sensors to detect broken belts or other problems and
set more alarm relays.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2023 5:01 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners

Crappola. Wrong link. No idea how that got in there.

https://electrek.co/2023/08/04/robot-cleans-solar-panels-without-water/

bp


On 8/7/2023 12:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> Que?
>
> From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 12:33 PM
> To: AFMUG
> Subject: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners
>
> These are designed for dust, but maybe they might work for light snow 
> too?
>
> https://electrek.co/2023/08/04/robot-cleans-solar-panels-without-water
> /
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners

[dmmoffett]

In short, it's a rechargeable thing that sits in it's docking station during
the day.  At night it rolls out along a row of panels and brushes them all
off, then moves from row to row and eventually returns to its docking
station.  

That's a very slick system, but I think it could be a lot simpler.  Get
brush rolls for vacuum cleaners and put a row of them on an axle as long as
the width of the panels.  Have a machine roll along the panels and spin the
brushes along the way.  It could carry a reel of power cord along with it.
A belt and pulley sets the speed of the cord reel to sync with the wheels
moving the thing along the panel, or it could be a spring loaded reel and
just have enough traction and torque to pay out the whole thing.  Don't try
to have it move from row to row, just install one on each row.  No
intelligence, no batteries, no charging station, no software.  An IR sensor
at the end of the panel row triggers it to reverse direction and go back to
home.  An IR sensor at the home position triggers it to stop.  If motor is
over current, shut down and set an alarm relay.  Over current should cover
most of the crises that might develop, like the cord being caught, stuck
wheels, or something jamming the brushes.  Put a simple 3-sided weather
housing at the home position.

In the deluxe model add sensors to detect broken belts or other problems and
set more alarm relays.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2023 5:01 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners

Crappola. Wrong link. No idea how that got in there.

https://electrek.co/2023/08/04/robot-cleans-solar-panels-without-water/

bp


On 8/7/2023 12:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> Que?
>
> From: Bill Prince
> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 12:33 PM
> To: AFMUG
> Subject: [AFMUG] Robot solar panel cleaners
>
> These are designed for dust, but maybe they might work for light snow 
> too?
>
> https://electrek.co/2023/08/04/robot-cleans-solar-panels-without-water
> /
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Temperature compensation at high temps

[dmmoffett]

They show an operating temp up to 50C.

It’s hard to tell with the Engrish translation, but since that sentence is
in the context of the temperature compensation chart down below, maybe they
just don’t want us to go any lower than 53V.



In other words, I was reading it this morning as “disable temperature
compensation”, but maybe they just mean “this is the lowest your charger
voltage should go”.



As another tidbit: They also later in the manual say that high operating
temperature cuts battery life span in half for every 10 degrees above 25C.
If anyone needed to make a case to their finance people for air conditioning
a comparison to changing batteries twice as often might do the trick.





















From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2023 12:42 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Temperature compensation at high temps



Below 5C happens here all the time.

Perhaps above 40C the run away problem levels out.  Or maybe that is outside
the maximum operational temp of the battery?



Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 



From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 7:26 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Subject: [AFMUG] Temperature compensation at high temps



>From a VRLA battery’s operation manual:



"If ambient temperature below 5℃ or above 40℃, temperature compensate is
no
longer go on."



Hopefully we never get that room up to 40C/105F, but why would we turn
temperature compensation off at that temperature?

  _

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[AFMUG] Temperature compensation at high temps

[dmmoffett]

>From a VRLA battery’s operation manual:



"If ambient temperature below 5℃ or above 40℃, temperature compensate is
no
longer go on."



Hopefully we never get that room up to 40C/105F, but why would we turn
temperature compensation off at that temperature?

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Re: [AFMUG] Are you reliant on searching?

[dmmoffett]

A few weeks ago the Windows search box was broken for me, but I was in the
middle of something where I couldn't restart my computer.  That was the
first time I'd used the Start Menu to open applications in 4 or 5 years.  I
only use Start to find the "shutdown" button.  Yes, it's faster to search by
the name of the application than to click through the Start Menu for it.  I
also use it for the Control Panel items I open most often.  For example I
start typing "ethernet" and then click "ethernet settings" as soon as it
appears and I type "device" and click on "device manager".

I don't generally search for settings in a device.  Maybe I'll try it.




-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 4:38 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] Are you reliant on searching?

We've got a new employee in his 20's.  He never browses for programs off his
start menu, but uses the windows search box for everything.

Anything that has a search box, he types into that.  I didn't even know that
the Grandstream UCM's had a search function, but he only uses that to find
settings to change.  Is this normal behavior now? Is it actually faster?

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