Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Darin Steffl]

I'm in agreement with Simon that it's much faster and reliable to host in
the cloud than a server on site. It would cost me many more hours, hand
holding, and worry if I had to host this server in my network. If I went on
vacation and something happened, I'd be stressed.

With sonar living in the cloud, there's less to worry about as it's hosted
in a much more reliable datacenter than I could afford to build. It's also
managed by sonar's team so if there's an issue, they take care of it.
Stress free for me.

I see why you might want to host it in house but those reasons do NOT
outweigh all the benefits of letting sonar host it in the cloud for you and
take care of the problems.

Mike, if you don't like Simon's decision to leave it in the cloud, shut up
and move on. There's no reason for you and Matt Hoppes to keep beating a
dead horse and sound like a broken record. Use something else you're happy
with and let the rest of us grow our business and make more $$$ while you
two complain about a product you don't even use. Jeez ha



On Oct 17, 2017 8:31 PM, "Seth Mattinen"  wrote:

> On 10/17/17 6:14 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
>> Expect repeated harassment until a good reason is presented or you
>> capitulate.
>>
>> It's the SFP of the billing\OSS world.
>>
>
>
> I always welcome my competitors to have external dependencies. When they
> try to hand wave their problems away as vendor or cloud problems it helps
> me gain new customers.
>
> ~Seth
>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Seth Mattinen]

On 10/17/17 6:14 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
Expect repeated harassment until a good reason is presented or you 
capitulate.


It's the SFP of the billing\OSS world.



I always welcome my competitors to have external dependencies. When they 
try to hand wave their problems away as vendor or cloud problems it 
helps me gain new customers.


~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

I'm more stubborn than you buddy

On Oct 17, 2017 8:14 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> Expect repeated harassment until a good reason is presented or you
> capitulate.
>
> It's the SFP of the billing\OSS world.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 8:09:09 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Never ends up being that simple, but yes, we've made a business decision
> not to.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 6:33 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> If what they have doesn't meet requirements, it's their fault if it's
>> slow. If they fuck it up themselves, it's billable hours if easy or wipe,
>> reinstall, import last known good DB if not easy.
>>
>> My intent was to say that whatever methods you do to manage your existing
>> infrastructure can just as easily manage hundreds of on-prem installations.
>> That's the power of orchestration. What's underneath doesn't really matter,
>> it just does it.
>>
>> They install whatever the blest OS is with appropriate options (or you
>> have an OVA\ISO\etc. that gets them to the right spot) and forward the
>> correct ports. Load the SSH keys and your orchestration tools connect to
>> that SSH port and begin the "new environment" task. Once your beta tests
>> are done, you build whatever task you need to accomplish those updates and
>> it connects to every machine and does it, regardless of that machine's
>> location. The same processes would be used whether in-house or on-premises.
>> They're just IPs, ports, credentials and roles.
>>
>>
>> It's not a technical issue. It isn't even that it's technically difficult
>> as you're likely already doing this. You just don't want to.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:20:55 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> There's no reason it can't technically, but think about what you just
>> said, and then managing that for hundreds of customers that don't have that
>> level of understanding. And then we have to deal with ongoing deployment,
>> updates, etc.
>>
>> Reality is, it ain't gonna happen :)
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017 6:15 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>
>>> A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my
>>> infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten?
>>>
>>> Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements?
>>>
>>> There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already
>>> has partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance
>>> now can be done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have
>>> Hyper-V) just as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor
>>> of the day for code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or
>>> 2.2.2.2.
>>>
>>> How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to
>>> orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure
>>> you have. No different if it is here or there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[Jaime Solorza]

Make sure your ensemble and high heels match your purse.   . .

On Oct 17, 2017 9:58 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:

> if only i held the purse strings
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> Pay for the service. They're the professionals.
>>
>> Your business value does not increase by trying to provide a business
>> service that you are not an expert in without the proper time, tools, or
>> data.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017 9:21 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, and im hoping the boss renews it. I like the report. But id also
>>> like the google earth
>>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2017 7:14 AM, "Tim Hardy"  wrote:
>>>
 Steve,

 I think Comsearch coordinated your link?  If so, the path is
 automatically covered by their protection service for one year at no
 charge.  Disclaimer - I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch - officially
 retired on October 13th.

 Tim

 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

> you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I have a
> huge  email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I assume I add the same
> amount every time we step into another license.
>
> Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml files.
> flag the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a link or .. grrr 
> data
> froma pdf) and ad it to a single google earth file?
>
> I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them and look
> at the folder occasionally.
>
> we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see committing
> man time for all of them being valuable, buying link protection services
> would be cheaper
>

>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

Expect repeated harassment until a good reason is presented or you capitulate. 

It's the SFP of the billing\OSS world. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 8:09:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 


Never ends up being that simple, but yes, we've made a business decision not 
to. 


On Oct 17, 2017 6:33 PM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




If what they have doesn't meet requirements, it's their fault if it's slow. If 
they fuck it up themselves, it's billable hours if easy or wipe, reinstall, 
import last known good DB if not easy. 

My intent was to say that whatever methods you do to manage your existing 
infrastructure can just as easily manage hundreds of on-prem installations. 
That's the power of orchestration. What's underneath doesn't really matter, it 
just does it. 

They install whatever the blest OS is with appropriate options (or you have an 
OVA\ISO\etc. that gets them to the right spot) and forward the correct ports. 
Load the SSH keys and your orchestration tools connect to that SSH port and 
begin the "new environment" task. Once your beta tests are done, you build 
whatever task you need to accomplish those updates and it connects to every 
machine and does it, regardless of that machine's location. The same processes 
would be used whether in-house or on-premises. They're just IPs, ports, 
credentials and roles. 


It's not a technical issue. It isn't even that it's technically difficult as 
you're likely already doing this. You just don't want to. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:20:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 


There's no reason it can't technically, but think about what you just said, and 
then managing that for hundreds of customers that don't have that level of 
understanding. And then we have to deal with ongoing deployment, updates, etc. 


Reality is, it ain't gonna happen :) 


On Oct 17, 2017 6:15 PM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my 
infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten? 

Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements? 

There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already has 
partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance now can be 
done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have Hyper-V) just 
as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor of the day for 
code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or 2.2.2.2. 

How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to 
orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure you 
have. No different if it is here or there. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:03:37 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service. There 
comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity at a high 
level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already there with a lot 
of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated servers doing nothing but 
parsing Netflow data, for example. 

It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major reasons 
we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically feasible, and 
there's an inverse demand for it. The bigger customers we deal with don't want 
it, because they don't have the infrastructure and they don't want to manage 
it. Smaller customers sometimes want it, but they don't have the financial 
resources to provide what we'd need to deploy, and there's not enough revenue 
there for us to build some separate locally installable platform that all gets 
dumped together into one VM. 

Can't speak for everyone, but that's the deal for us. The goal for Sonar is 
that we can spin up service for an ISP with 250,000 subscribers as easily as we 
can for one with 250, and it's not an achievable goal when you're trying to 
manage installations in hundreds of different places, and maintain all these 
different deployment methods. 


On 10/17/2017 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



So don't do that? :-p 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:55:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster of 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Luthman]

All good, just didn't want you overlooking that initial post.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 9:09 PM, Simon Westlake 
wrote:

> Never ends up being that simple, but yes, we've made a business decision
> not to.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 6:33 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> If what they have doesn't meet requirements, it's their fault if it's
>> slow. If they fuck it up themselves, it's billable hours if easy or wipe,
>> reinstall, import last known good DB if not easy.
>>
>> My intent was to say that whatever methods you do to manage your existing
>> infrastructure can just as easily manage hundreds of on-prem installations.
>> That's the power of orchestration. What's underneath doesn't really matter,
>> it just does it.
>>
>> They install whatever the blest OS is with appropriate options (or you
>> have an OVA\ISO\etc. that gets them to the right spot) and forward the
>> correct ports. Load the SSH keys and your orchestration tools connect to
>> that SSH port and begin the "new environment" task. Once your beta tests
>> are done, you build whatever task you need to accomplish those updates and
>> it connects to every machine and does it, regardless of that machine's
>> location. The same processes would be used whether in-house or on-premises.
>> They're just IPs, ports, credentials and roles.
>>
>>
>> It's not a technical issue. It isn't even that it's technically difficult
>> as you're likely already doing this. You just don't want to.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:20:55 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> There's no reason it can't technically, but think about what you just
>> said, and then managing that for hundreds of customers that don't have that
>> level of understanding. And then we have to deal with ongoing deployment,
>> updates, etc.
>>
>> Reality is, it ain't gonna happen :)
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017 6:15 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>>
>>> A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my
>>> infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten?
>>>
>>> Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements?
>>>
>>> There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already
>>> has partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance
>>> now can be done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have
>>> Hyper-V) just as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor
>>> of the day for code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or
>>> 2.2.2.2.
>>>
>>> How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to
>>> orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure
>>> you have. No different if it is here or there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Brothers WISP 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:03:37 PM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>>
>>> Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service.
>>> There comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity at
>>> a high level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already there
>>> with a lot of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated servers doing
>>> nothing but parsing Netflow data, for example.
>>>
>>> It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major
>>> reasons we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically
>>> 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

Never ends up being that simple, but yes, we've made a business decision
not to.

On Oct 17, 2017 6:33 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> If what they have doesn't meet requirements, it's their fault if it's
> slow. If they fuck it up themselves, it's billable hours if easy or wipe,
> reinstall, import last known good DB if not easy.
>
> My intent was to say that whatever methods you do to manage your existing
> infrastructure can just as easily manage hundreds of on-prem installations.
> That's the power of orchestration. What's underneath doesn't really matter,
> it just does it.
>
> They install whatever the blest OS is with appropriate options (or you
> have an OVA\ISO\etc. that gets them to the right spot) and forward the
> correct ports. Load the SSH keys and your orchestration tools connect to
> that SSH port and begin the "new environment" task. Once your beta tests
> are done, you build whatever task you need to accomplish those updates and
> it connects to every machine and does it, regardless of that machine's
> location. The same processes would be used whether in-house or on-premises.
> They're just IPs, ports, credentials and roles.
>
>
> It's not a technical issue. It isn't even that it's technically difficult
> as you're likely already doing this. You just don't want to.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:20:55 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> There's no reason it can't technically, but think about what you just
> said, and then managing that for hundreds of customers that don't have that
> level of understanding. And then we have to deal with ongoing deployment,
> updates, etc.
>
> Reality is, it ain't gonna happen :)
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 6:15 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my
>> infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten?
>>
>> Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements?
>>
>> There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already has
>> partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance now
>> can be done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have
>> Hyper-V) just as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor
>> of the day for code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or
>> 2.2.2.2.
>>
>> How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to
>> orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure
>> you have. No different if it is here or there.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:03:37 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service.
>> There comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity at
>> a high level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already there
>> with a lot of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated servers doing
>> nothing but parsing Netflow data, for example.
>>
>> It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major
>> reasons we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically
>> feasible, and there's an inverse demand for it. The bigger customers we
>> deal with don't want it, because they don't have the infrastructure and
>> they don't want to manage it. Smaller customers sometimes want it, but they
>> don't have the financial resources to provide what we'd need to deploy, and
>> there's not enough revenue there for us to 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

If what they have doesn't meet requirements, it's their fault if it's slow. If 
they fuck it up themselves, it's billable hours if easy or wipe, reinstall, 
import last known good DB if not easy. 

My intent was to say that whatever methods you do to manage your existing 
infrastructure can just as easily manage hundreds of on-prem installations. 
That's the power of orchestration. What's underneath doesn't really matter, it 
just does it. 

They install whatever the blest OS is with appropriate options (or you have an 
OVA\ISO\etc. that gets them to the right spot) and forward the correct ports. 
Load the SSH keys and your orchestration tools connect to that SSH port and 
begin the "new environment" task. Once your beta tests are done, you build 
whatever task you need to accomplish those updates and it connects to every 
machine and does it, regardless of that machine's location. The same processes 
would be used whether in-house or on-premises. They're just IPs, ports, 
credentials and roles. 


It's not a technical issue. It isn't even that it's technically difficult as 
you're likely already doing this. You just don't want to. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:20:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 


There's no reason it can't technically, but think about what you just said, and 
then managing that for hundreds of customers that don't have that level of 
understanding. And then we have to deal with ongoing deployment, updates, etc. 


Reality is, it ain't gonna happen :) 


On Oct 17, 2017 6:15 PM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my 
infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten? 

Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements? 

There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already has 
partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance now can be 
done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have Hyper-V) just 
as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor of the day for 
code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or 2.2.2.2. 

How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to 
orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure you 
have. No different if it is here or there. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:03:37 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service. There 
comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity at a high 
level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already there with a lot 
of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated servers doing nothing but 
parsing Netflow data, for example. 

It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major reasons 
we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically feasible, and 
there's an inverse demand for it. The bigger customers we deal with don't want 
it, because they don't have the infrastructure and they don't want to manage 
it. Smaller customers sometimes want it, but they don't have the financial 
resources to provide what we'd need to deploy, and there's not enough revenue 
there for us to build some separate locally installable platform that all gets 
dumped together into one VM. 

Can't speak for everyone, but that's the deal for us. The goal for Sonar is 
that we can spin up service for an ISP with 250,000 subscribers as easily as we 
can for one with 250, and it's not an achievable goal when you're trying to 
manage installations in hundreds of different places, and maintain all these 
different deployment methods. 


On 10/17/2017 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



So don't do that? :-p 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:55:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster of 
auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment methodology, it 
becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across something like Azure 
or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just drop it on someone's 
server. 


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server 
doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but it 
plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a MRC-based 
billing\OSS 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

There's no reason it can't technically, but think about what you just said,
and then managing that for hundreds of customers that don't have that level
of understanding. And then we have to deal with ongoing deployment,
updates, etc.

Reality is, it ain't gonna happen :)

On Oct 17, 2017 6:15 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my
> infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten?
>
> Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements?
>
> There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already has
> partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance now
> can be done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have
> Hyper-V) just as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor
> of the day for code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or
> 2.2.2.2.
>
> How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to
> orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure
> you have. No different if it is here or there.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Simon Westlake" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:03:37 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service. There
> comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity at a
> high level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already there
> with a lot of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated servers doing
> nothing but parsing Netflow data, for example.
>
> It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major
> reasons we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically
> feasible, and there's an inverse demand for it. The bigger customers we
> deal with don't want it, because they don't have the infrastructure and
> they don't want to manage it. Smaller customers sometimes want it, but they
> don't have the financial resources to provide what we'd need to deploy, and
> there's not enough revenue there for us to build some separate locally
> installable platform that all gets dumped together into one VM.
>
> Can't speak for everyone, but that's the deal for us. The goal for Sonar
> is that we can spin up service for an ISP with 250,000 subscribers as
> easily as we can for one with 250, and it's not an achievable goal when
> you're trying to manage installations in hundreds of different places, and
> maintain all these different deployment methods.
>
> On 10/17/2017 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> So don't do that?  :-p
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Simon Westlake"  
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:55:30 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster
> of auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment methodology,
> it becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across something like
> Azure or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just drop it on
> someone's server.
>
> On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server
> doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but
> it plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a
> MRC-based billing\OSS platform would migrate to a new one, but doing it
> over a few months because you can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a
> big difference.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

A VM on Digital Ocean isn't significantly different than a VM on my 
infrastructure. Need two VMs? Ten? 

Have IOPS requirements? IO latency requirements? RAM requirements? 

There's no reason it can't be a local install, assuming Sonar already has 
partitions between customers. Whatever you do to spin up an instance now can be 
done on my vSphere or my Proxmox or my Hyper-V (not that I have Hyper-V) just 
as easily. Scripts are scripts and Git or whatever the flavor of the day for 
code updates are the same whether the IP is 1.1.1.1 or 2.2.2.2. 

How do you manage things now? I assuming Puppet, Ansible, Chef, etc. to 
orchestrate the same OS updates and changes across the whole infrastructure you 
have. No different if it is here or there. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 6:03:37 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service. There 
comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity at a high 
level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already there with a lot 
of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated servers doing nothing but 
parsing Netflow data, for example. 

It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major reasons 
we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically feasible, and 
there's an inverse demand for it. The bigger customers we deal with don't want 
it, because they don't have the infrastructure and they don't want to manage 
it. Smaller customers sometimes want it, but they don't have the financial 
resources to provide what we'd need to deploy, and there's not enough revenue 
there for us to build some separate locally installable platform that all gets 
dumped together into one VM. 

Can't speak for everyone, but that's the deal for us. The goal for Sonar is 
that we can spin up service for an ISP with 250,000 subscribers as easily as we 
can for one with 250, and it's not an achievable goal when you're trying to 
manage installations in hundreds of different places, and maintain all these 
different deployment methods. 


On 10/17/2017 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



So don't do that? :-p 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:55:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster of 
auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment methodology, it 
becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across something like Azure 
or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just drop it on someone's 
server. 


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server 
doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but it 
plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a MRC-based 
billing\OSS platform would migrate to a new one, but doing it over a few months 
because you can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this industry 
and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to create a seamless 
transition. We already have one click tools for most of our competitors to 
import their data into Sonar, and we're working on the rest. The challenging 
thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is 
junk to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up 
what you got, it can be done very quickly. 

I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against reality. 
There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has stopped 
operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 
hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that 
doesn't have the features you need because it offers some modicum of protection 
against an unlikely event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday 
scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh 
the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk assessment. 

I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the point that 
they are 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

Sure, if you don't want to be able to provide that level of service. 
There comes a point where you can't deliver a product of high complexity 
at a high level of scaling when everything runs on one VM. We're already 
there with a lot of our customers - we have clusters of dedicated 
servers doing nothing but parsing Netflow data, for example.


It's not the right approach for everything, but it's one of the major 
reasons we don't do a local install for Sonar. It's just not technically 
feasible, and there's an inverse demand for it. The bigger customers we 
deal with don't want it, because they don't have the infrastructure and 
they don't want to manage it. Smaller customers sometimes want it, but 
they don't have the financial resources to provide what we'd need to 
deploy, and there's not enough revenue there for us to build some 
separate locally installable platform that all gets dumped together into 
one VM.


Can't speak for everyone, but that's the deal for us. The goal for Sonar 
is that we can spin up service for an ISP with 250,000 subscribers as 
easily as we can for one with 250, and it's not an achievable goal when 
you're trying to manage installations in hundreds of different places, 
and maintain all these different deployment methods.


On 10/17/2017 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

So don't do that?  :-p



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Simon Westlake" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:55:30 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a 
cluster of auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment 
methodology, it becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running 
across something like Azure or AWS, it is far from a one to one 
mapping to just drop it on someone's server.


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my
server doesn't make much difference from the software management
perspective, but it plays a big part of business continuity. I'd
imagine most people on a MRC-based billing\OSS platform would
migrate to a new one, but doing it over a few months because you
can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Simon Westlake" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in
this industry and all the competitors didn't scramble to build
tools to create a seamless transition. We already have one click
tools for most of our competitors to import their data into Sonar,
and we're working on the rest. The challenging thing is that a lot
of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is junk
to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to
clean up what you got, it can be done very quickly.

I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios
against reality. There has yet to be a billing vendor in this
industry that has stopped operating in the 7 years I've been part
of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 hour period and leave
everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that doesn't
have the features you need because it offers some modicum of
protection against an unlikely event? That is up to you to
balance, but these doomsday scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if
it's costing you a lot of efficiency and potential revenue, then
my personal feeling would be that it doesn't 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

So don't do that? :-p 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:55:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster of 
auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment methodology, it 
becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across something like Azure 
or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just drop it on someone's 
server. 


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server 
doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but it 
plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a MRC-based 
billing\OSS platform would migrate to a new one, but doing it over a few months 
because you can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this industry 
and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to create a seamless 
transition. We already have one click tools for most of our competitors to 
import their data into Sonar, and we're working on the rest. The challenging 
thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is 
junk to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up 
what you got, it can be done very quickly. 

I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against reality. 
There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has stopped 
operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 
hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that 
doesn't have the features you need because it offers some modicum of protection 
against an unlikely event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday 
scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh 
the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk assessment. 

I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the point that 
they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them to just disappear 
into the night. 


On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 





Been through this many times in my life. Done it both ways. Several times. 
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me. 
You get what you pay for. 




From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



Not true. It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another. As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new vendor 
with that, maybe not. There will be mistakes made during that process, and some 
of it will have to be re-done. You also have to hook the new product into all 
of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it works and 
doesn't suddenly break people's connections. 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software. People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention. Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed. Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated. The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been. And on and on. 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1. 

-- Nathan 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 




Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database. You will only 
be screwed for a very short time. 






From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one. 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed. It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

Glad someone got it...

From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


..snicker...

I hear sonar can keep you up at night! ;)

  - Original Message - 
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

  I hear Sonar is easy...

  From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


  ...i really want to comment on thisbut i won't lol

  i like young flashy software tho!!   but sometimes it isn't...matured.
  yah, i tried to not comment lol

  not saying that about sonar at allor hot wives for that matter.


- Original Message - 
From: James Howard 
To: 'af@afmug.com' 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose one and 
stick with it for life while others will play the field, pick the hottest 
youngest available model and then get tired of it and move to something newer 
and flashier every few years?

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Same goes for picking a wife.  

 

From: Matt Hoppes 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first 
time.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:

  It never goes smoothly.

   

  I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

   

  I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have 
migrated software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always 
pain.

   

  Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

   

  It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they 
want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new 
vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good 
job of it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not 
something that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.  

  Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

  You get what you pay for.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema 
into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

   

  Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.

   

  If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the 
deep end of the pool on day 1.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

How many different billing vendors were on display at Wispapalloza?

From: Simon Westlake 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:55 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster of 
auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment methodology, it 
becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across something like Azure 
or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just drop it on someone's server.


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

  I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server 
doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but it 
plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a MRC-based 
billing\OSS platform would migrate to a new one, but doing it over a few months 
because you can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Simon Westlake" mailto:simon@sonar.software
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

  And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this industry 
and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to create a seamless 
transition. We already have one click tools for most of our competitors to 
import their data into Sonar, and we're working on the rest. The challenging 
thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is 
junk to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up 
what you got, it can be done very quickly.

  I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against reality. 
There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has stopped 
operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 
hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that 
doesn't have the features you need because it offers some modicum of protection 
against an unlikely event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday 
scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh 
the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk assessment.

  I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the point 
that they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them to just 
disappear into the night.


  On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.  
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  
You get what you pay for.  

From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema 
into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.



Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.



If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the 
deep end of the pool on day 1.



-- Nathan



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  



From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.



It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly 
be a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps 
Sonar has no problem giving 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

..snicker...

I hear sonar can keep you up at night! ;)

  - Original Message - 
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


  I hear Sonar is easy...

  From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


  ...i really want to comment on thisbut i won't lol

  i like young flashy software tho!!   but sometimes it isn't...matured.
  yah, i tried to not comment lol

  not saying that about sonar at allor hot wives for that matter.


- Original Message - 
From: James Howard 
To: 'af@afmug.com' 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose one and 
stick with it for life while others will play the field, pick the hottest 
youngest available model and then get tired of it and move to something newer 
and flashier every few years?

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Same goes for picking a wife.  

 

From: Matt Hoppes 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first 
time.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:

  It never goes smoothly.

   

  I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

   

  I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have 
migrated software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always 
pain.

   

  Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

   

  It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they 
want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new 
vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good 
job of it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not 
something that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.  

  Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

  You get what you pay for.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema 
into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

   

  Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.

   

  If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the 
deep end of the pool on day 1.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You 
will only be screwed for a very short 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

I have talked to many wisps.  Migrating from one billing platform to another 
seems to always be a time consuming process.
I've heard over and over we are four months into thissix months into this.  
Sometimes the software can force you to do things
you should have been doing all along (which is good) but can slow the 
transition.

I've told many of you publically I have a few different wisps with different 
ownership structures.  I kept up with sonar well through
the first few modules until the larger wisp purchased a company and we wound up 
having to import a lot of stuff.  We let the
techs do most of the data import but we had to make a lot of changes on the 
back end to make it live (for example, we migrated
to a completely different subnet and moved everyone from pppoe to dhcp by mac 
address).   We still have to make the telrad wimax
talk with powercode and i haven't circled back around to that.  In fact, I'm 
paying a 3rd billing system until I complete that process.

I read the canopy manual when it first came out.  Heck, I read the windows 3.1 
manual when it came out from front to back.
I like to know everything about a process and I regret that I haven't had the 
time to keep up with sonar's developments.
It is next on my todo list to continue to implement in my smaller networks.  
Currently it bills the customers and the customers can
pay their bills through it - - but there is so much more to sonar now than when 
I last watched the videos on billing.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Nathan Anderson 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


  So I'm confused...you're helping to make my point for me? :-)

   

  And "you will only be screwed for a very short time" can somehow be 
reconciled with the statement that "I think it took more than 6 months to 
actually get it up and going"...how exactly?  In my world, 6 months is not "a 
very short time".

   

  And this is only talking about migrating from one non-cloud platform to 
another.  Now imagine if the migration didn't occur because you simply wanted 
to get off an old dinosaur and could do so at your leisure, but was instead 
because aliens beamed your old dinosaur off the surface of the planet in the 
blink of an eye.  One minute it's there, the next it's not.  6 months to 
implement == you're screwed.  Royally screwed.  Now, in this hypothetical 
scenario, the people doing the migration would have extra incentive to get it 
done and put the new system into production more quickly,  but still.

   

  I saw Sterling's list of reasons why he wants to move to Sonar.  I can 
understand and respect many of them.  I would just like to point out that in 
his first post, he said he had been in a holding pattern with the Sonar 
migration for a month.  For most of us in this industry, that equates to an 
entire billing cycle for nearly your entire customer base.

   

  I guess it's a good thing that he's migrating from Platypus, which isn't 
going out of business.  And even if it was, it's not cloud-hosted.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:28 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  It never goes smoothly.

   

  I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

   

  I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

   

  Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

   

  It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they 
want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.  

  Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

  You get what you pay for.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Not true.  It doesn't matter what 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

It seemed like 75. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:56:23 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 




How many different billing vendors were on display at Wispapalloza? 




From: Simon Westlake 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:55 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster of 
auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment methodology, it 
becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across something like Azure 
or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just drop it on someone's 
server. 


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server 
doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but it 
plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a MRC-based 
billing\OSS platform would migrate to a new one, but doing it over a few months 
because you can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake" mailto:simon@sonar.software 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this industry 
and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to create a seamless 
transition. We already have one click tools for most of our competitors to 
import their data into Sonar, and we're working on the rest. The challenging 
thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is 
junk to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up 
what you got, it can be done very quickly. 

I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against reality. 
There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has stopped 
operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 
hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that 
doesn't have the features you need because it offers some modicum of protection 
against an unlikely event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday 
scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh 
the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk assessment. 

I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the point that 
they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them to just disappear 
into the night. 


On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 





Been through this many times in my life. Done it both ways. Several times. 
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me. 
You get what you pay for. 




From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



Not true. It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another. As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new vendor 
with that, maybe not. There will be mistakes made during that process, and some 
of it will have to be re-done. You also have to hook the new product into all 
of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it works and 
doesn't suddenly break people's connections. 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software. People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention. Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed. Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated. The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been. And on and on. 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1. 

-- Nathan 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 




Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database. You will only 
be screwed for a very short time. 






From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one. 

It's really not about access to your own data, 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

It makes a big difference when it doesn't run on a server, but a cluster 
of auto-scaling VMs. I would agree that in a simple deployment 
methodology, it becomes fairly irrelevant, but if you are running across 
something like Azure or AWS, it is far from a one to one mapping to just 
drop it on someone's server.


On 10/17/2017 5:43 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my 
server doesn't make much difference from the software management 
perspective, but it plays a big part of business continuity. I'd 
imagine most people on a MRC-based billing\OSS platform would migrate 
to a new one, but doing it over a few months because you can vs. 
tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Simon Westlake" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this 
industry and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to 
create a seamless transition. We already have one click tools for most 
of our competitors to import their data into Sonar, and we're working 
on the rest. The challenging thing is that a lot of systems don't 
enforce good data consistency, so there is junk to clean up. But if 
push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up what you got, it 
can be done very quickly.


I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against 
reality. There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that 
has stopped operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone 
close up shop in a 24 hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is 
it worth using old software that doesn't have the features you need 
because it offers some modicum of protection against an unlikely 
event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday scenarios are 
pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't 
outweigh the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk 
assessment.


I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the 
point that they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them 
to just disappear into the night.


On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways. 
Several times.
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.
You get what you pay for.
*From:* Nathan Anderson
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export
is: you still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn
data from one schema into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe
you'll get support from your new vendor with that, maybe not.
There will be mistakes made during that process, and some of it
will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make
sure it works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the
new software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to
do what you need it to do and which you already knew how to do
with the old software. People will get billed wrong for a while
and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your customers bring
the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need to
get billed won't be...others will get double-billed. Pro-rates
will get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by
mistake that shouldn't have been.  And on and on.

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being
pushed into the deep end of the pool on day 1.

-- Nathan

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database. 
You will only be screwed for a very short time.

*From:*Nathan Anderson

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

I will be honest and say it depends. It depends what you're coming from, 
and it depends how engaged you want to me. Migrating a company from one 
platform to another is very difficult. 75% of our staff are dedicated to 
support, training, and onboarding, and I think we're getting better at 
it all the time, but we still spend a lot of energy figuring out how we 
can do better.


We just hired a project manager, we're bringing on more people to fly 
out and do training on site with people, and we're working to refine our 
processes. We've onboarded almost 300 ISPs at this point, and we have a 
lot more lined up with the WispMon acquisition and the people that got 
on board in Vegas. I'm probably biased, but I think we usually do a good 
job and we're always working hard to get better.


On 10/17/2017 5:49 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

I hear Sonar is easy...
*From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
...i really want to comment on thisbut i won't lol
i like young flashy software tho!! but sometimes it isn't...matured.
yah, i tried to not comment lol
not saying that about sonar at allor hot wives for that matter.

- Original Message -
*From:* James Howard
*To:* 'af@afmug.com'
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose
one and stick with it for life while others will play the field,
pick the hottest youngest available model and then get tired of it
and move to something newer and flashier every few years?

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Same goes for picking a wife.

*From:*Matt Hoppes

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform
the first time.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:

It never goes smoothly.

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you
change out their software that manages all the customer
accounts etc.  They migrated off an old dinosaur main frame to
an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took more
than 6 months to actually get it up and going.

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them
have migrated software, most of them multiple times.  Again,
never smooth, always pain.

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was
probably the easiest due to the IT department being very hands
on through the process.

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to
work all they want, but it will not work perfectly without
elbow grease.

*From:*Nathan Anderson

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that
their new vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't
doing an effective or good job of it? Vendor on-boarding is
not always an option, or at least is not something that is
guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

-- Nathan

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Been through this many times in my life. Done it both ways. 
Several times.

Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.

You get what you pay for.

*From:*Nathan Anderson

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the
export is: you still have to take the time to figure out how
to shoehorn data from one schema into another.  As talked
about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new vendor
with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that
process, and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also
have to hook the new product into all of your authentication
systems and then test that to make sure it works and doesn't
suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using
the new software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling
it to do what you need it to do and which you already knew how
to do with the old software.  People will get billed wrong for
a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your
customers bring the 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

One of my first jobs (high school) was doing data conversion for a local 
software vendor.  Paid good money back in 1995 - $10 an hour. I'd work 12 hour 
shifts with friends - we'd work 24 hour shifts (evenings and weekends).  It was 
massaging a lot of data , removing certain characters, etc.  I forgot how many 
records we had to reviewit was a LOT.

This was a check / restitution billing system district attorney systems used 
for collecting bad debts.

Worked great until Windows came along


  - Original Message - 
  From: Simon Westlake 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


  And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this industry 
and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to create a seamless 
transition. We already have one click tools for most of our competitors to 
import their data into Sonar, and we're working on the rest. The challenging 
thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is 
junk to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up 
what you got, it can be done very quickly.

  I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against reality. 
There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has stopped 
operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 
hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that 
doesn't have the features you need because it offers some modicum of protection 
against an unlikely event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday 
scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh 
the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk assessment.

  I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the point 
that they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them to just 
disappear into the night.


  On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.  
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  
You get what you pay for.  

From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema 
into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.



Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.



If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the 
deep end of the pool on day 1.



-- Nathan



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  



From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.



It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly 
be a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps 
Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for 
you to backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit 
of the doubt on this.



I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to 
an organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and 
fast.



The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and 
user), but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One 
big-E-on-the-eyechart one is what happens if the product is discontinued, 
either because the parent company/developers go out of business or for 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

I hear Sonar is easy...

From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


...i really want to comment on thisbut i won't lol

i like young flashy software tho!!   but sometimes it isn't...matured.
yah, i tried to not comment lol

not saying that about sonar at allor hot wives for that matter.


  - Original Message - 
  From: James Howard 
  To: 'af@afmug.com' 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

  So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose one and 
stick with it for life while others will play the field, pick the hottest 
youngest available model and then get tired of it and move to something newer 
and flashier every few years?

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Same goes for picking a wife.  

   

  From: Matt Hoppes 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first 
time.


  On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:

It never goes smoothly.

 

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

 

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

 

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

 

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they 
want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new 
vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good 
job of it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not 
something that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.  

Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

You get what you pay for.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema 
into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.

 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the 
deep end of the pool on day 1.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly 
be a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

...i really want to comment on thisbut i won't lol

i like young flashy software tho!!   but sometimes it isn't...matured.
yah, i tried to not comment lol

not saying that about sonar at allor hot wives for that matter.


  - Original Message - 
  From: James Howard 
  To: 'af@afmug.com' 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


  So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose one and 
stick with it for life while others will play the field, pick the hottest 
youngest available model and then get tired of it and move to something newer 
and flashier every few years?

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Same goes for picking a wife.  

   

  From: Matt Hoppes 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first 
time.


  On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:

It never goes smoothly.

 

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

 

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

 

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

 

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they 
want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new 
vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good 
job of it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not 
something that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.  

Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

You get what you pay for.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema 
into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.

 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the 
deep end of the pool on day 1.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly 
be a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps 
Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for 
you to backup yourself, and for the 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

Back in the day of that mainframe conversion, CSV files and PC based databases 
and spreadsheets did not exist like they do now.  

Perhaps visicalc.  Maybe foxpro.  

From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:43 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

So I'm confused...you're helping to make my point for me? :-)

 

And "you will only be screwed for a very short time" can somehow be reconciled 
with the statement that "I think it took more than 6 months to actually get it 
up and going"...how exactly?  In my world, 6 months is not "a very short time".

 

And this is only talking about migrating from one non-cloud platform to 
another.  Now imagine if the migration didn't occur because you simply wanted 
to get off an old dinosaur and could do so at your leisure, but was instead 
because aliens beamed your old dinosaur off the surface of the planet in the 
blink of an eye.  One minute it's there, the next it's not.  6 months to 
implement == you're screwed.  Royally screwed.  Now, in this hypothetical 
scenario, the people doing the migration would have extra incentive to get it 
done and put the new system into production more quickly,  but still.

 

I saw Sterling's list of reasons why he wants to move to Sonar.  I can 
understand and respect many of them.  I would just like to point out that in 
his first post, he said he had been in a holding pattern with the Sonar 
migration for a month.  For most of us in this industry, that equates to an 
entire billing cycle for nearly your entire customer base.

 

I guess it's a good thing that he's migrating from Platypus, which isn't going 
out of business.  And even if it was, it's not cloud-hosted.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

It never goes smoothly.

 

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

 

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

 

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the easiest 
due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

 

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they want, 
but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.  

Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

You get what you pay for.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Nathan Anderson]

So I'm confused...you're helping to make my point for me? :-)

And "you will only be screwed for a very short time" can somehow be reconciled 
with the statement that "I think it took more than 6 months to actually get it 
up and going"...how exactly?  In my world, 6 months is not "a very short time".

And this is only talking about migrating from one non-cloud platform to 
another.  Now imagine if the migration didn't occur because you simply wanted 
to get off an old dinosaur and could do so at your leisure, but was instead 
because aliens beamed your old dinosaur off the surface of the planet in the 
blink of an eye.  One minute it's there, the next it's not.  6 months to 
implement == you're screwed.  Royally screwed.  Now, in this hypothetical 
scenario, the people doing the migration would have extra incentive to get it 
done and put the new system into production more quickly,  but still.

I saw Sterling's list of reasons why he wants to move to Sonar.  I can 
understand and respect many of them.  I would just like to point out that in 
his first post, he said he had been in a holding pattern with the Sonar 
migration for a month.  For most of us in this industry, that equates to an 
entire billing cycle for nearly your entire customer base.

I guess it's a good thing that he's migrating from Platypus, which isn't going 
out of business.  And even if it was, it's not cloud-hosted.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

It never goes smoothly.

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the easiest 
due to the IT department being very hands on through the process.

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they want, 
but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.
You get what you pay for.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

I think the point is that if it runs on your server or runs on my server 
doesn't make much difference from the software management perspective, but it 
plays a big part of business continuity. I'd imagine most people on a MRC-based 
billing\OSS platform would migrate to a new one, but doing it over a few months 
because you can vs. tomorrow because you have to makes a big difference. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:39:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this industry 
and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to create a seamless 
transition. We already have one click tools for most of our competitors to 
import their data into Sonar, and we're working on the rest. The challenging 
thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce good data consistency, so there is 
junk to clean up. But if push comes to shove and you're willing to clean up 
what you got, it can be done very quickly. 

I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against reality. 
There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has stopped 
operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close up shop in a 24 
hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth using old software that 
doesn't have the features you need because it offers some modicum of protection 
against an unlikely event? That is up to you to balance, but these doomsday 
scenarios are pretty unlikely, and if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and 
potential revenue, then my personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh 
the consequences. But everyone has to make their own risk assessment. 

I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the point that 
they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them to just disappear 
into the night. 


On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote: 





Been through this many times in my life. Done it both ways. Several times. 
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me. 
You get what you pay for. 




From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



Not true. It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another. As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new vendor 
with that, maybe not. There will be mistakes made during that process, and some 
of it will have to be re-done. You also have to hook the new product into all 
of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it works and 
doesn't suddenly break people's connections. 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software. People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention. Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed. Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated. The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been. And on and on. 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1. 

-- Nathan 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 




Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database. You will only 
be screwed for a very short time. 






From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one. 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed. It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this. 

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization. If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast. 

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well. One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason. 

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

And I would be amazed if a major vendor went out of business in this 
industry and all the competitors didn't scramble to build tools to 
create a seamless transition. We already have one click tools for most 
of our competitors to import their data into Sonar, and we're working on 
the rest. The challenging thing is that a lot of systems don't enforce 
good data consistency, so there is junk to clean up. But if push comes 
to shove and you're willing to clean up what you got, it can be done 
very quickly.


I think you also have to weigh up these worst case scenarios against 
reality. There has yet to be a billing vendor in this industry that has 
stopped operating in the 7 years I've been part of it, let alone close 
up shop in a 24 hour period and leave everyone in the cold. Is it worth 
using old software that doesn't have the features you need because it 
offers some modicum of protection against an unlikely event? That is up 
to you to balance, but these doomsday scenarios are pretty unlikely, and 
if it's costing you a lot of efficiency and potential revenue, then my 
personal feeling would be that it doesn't outweigh the consequences. But 
everyone has to make their own risk assessment.


I think you will just see acquisitions occur if a vendor gets to the 
point that they are struggling to operate. It would be silly for them to 
just disappear into the night.


On 10/17/2017 4:15 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.

Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.
You get what you pay for.
*From:* Nathan Anderson
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: 
you still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data 
from one schema into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll 
get support from your new vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be 
mistakes made during that process, and some of it will have to be 
re-done.  You also have to hook the new product into all of your 
authentication systems and then test that to make sure it works and 
doesn't suddenly break people's connections.


Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what 
you need it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old 
software.  People will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll 
have to sort out that mess as your customers bring the billing 
mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need to get billed won't 
be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that 
shouldn't have been.  And on and on.


If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed 
into the deep end of the pool on day 1.


-- Nathan

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You 
will only be screwed for a very short time.


*From:*Nathan Anderson

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can 
certainly be a component depending on how things are designed. It 
sounds like perhaps Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable access 
to exports of your data for you to backup yourself, and for the 
moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this.


I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software 
is to an organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are 
losing money, and fast.


The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and 
user), but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One 
big-E-on-the-eyechart one is what happens if the product is 
discontinued, either because the parent company/developers go out of 
business or for some other reason.


In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use 
your own computing resources to execute the code, if the development 
company goes out of business one day, the software that you still 
possess a copy of does not suddenly become less useful to you. Sure, 
you won't get future upgrades and fixes to the product from the 
vendor, but at least you have some time to figure out what your 
options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a new 
platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the 
meantime, your business operations are not negatively impacted.


In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, 
unabridged, and up-to-date export of the data: when the product is 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

You can have VMs on your own hardware. ;-) 

I'd much prefer my billing system on-net, managed by whomever. It doesn't 
matter if the VM is in Digital Ocean or AWS or my VMWare when they do what they 
do. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Sterling Jacobson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:39:06 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



My problem and some of the reasons I’m switching to Sonar are: 

PCI compliance of Platypus, it was somehow always out of compliance the day 
after I paid techs to put it back in compliance. 

Running and hosting myself requires constant upkeep of the OS itself which 
introduced problems now and then over the years. 

I’ve hosted on my own hardware and it’s a PITA sometimes to deal with dual disk 
failure and constant backups and testing of those backups. 
I’ve had to rebuild my own hardware from scratch after a raid failure of 
multiple disks, then finding out my backups were corrupt and outdated too. 
We had to manually enter and catch up accounts by hand after that POS. 

This time around I used the same platform but on a VM so I didn’t have to worry 
about the hardware, it was redundant geographically. 
But then on the 15 th of this month THAT company went bust and closed down all 
of its VM’s. 
I am now back to hosting Platypus in a VM that I converted to run on my own 
desktop right now, lol! 

I’m moving to Sonar so it’s back with a hosted platform, but they are 
responsible for everything to be current compliant and running. 
That is a lot cheaper per customer per month than hiring a person to do that, 
and even not much more than a good VM hosted platform that doesn’t crawl like 
molasses when you RDP to it. 

I moved my Quickbooks instance/server to Cloud9 when my VM host provider went 
bye bye, and that is cheap, but man is it SLLLOWWW. 

Plus they have a growing feature set that I like that integrates more and more 
of my OSS features and ticketing and integration with paid tech/sales support 
etc. 

I like the idea of automation, and if they can come through the painful 
conversion part and help me automate my systems then it’s a total win. 

If they go belly up, I’m sure there is a way to get my data and make conversion 
back to something else. 
I’m not too worried about that as long as I set up backups that I can visibly 
verify as having the information I need to rebuild somewhere else. 





From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:59 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 


We are going on 10 :) 


On Oct 17, 2017, at 16:55, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




Right, keep that running for 30 years with no support. 



On Oct 17, 2017 1:36 PM, "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
wrote: 




Local install. 


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are 
bankrupt, they are bankrupt. 



On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
wrote: 




It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse. 



On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 





They provide enough value to avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it. 



Others are NOT the same. 




On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
wrote: 





No contract? That's frankly beyond scary. 


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month. 





-- Original Message -- 

From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 

To: af@afmug.com 

Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 






Fail. 


On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman < lewis.berg...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. Once 
you sign the contract, you start paying. 



On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson < nath...@fsr.com > wrote: 




​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed for a 
one-time upfront fee. However, if you have a SaaS model with recurring 
revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help the customer 
move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a 
paying customer ASAP. 

-- Nathan 




From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Lewis Bergman < 
lewis.berg...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Mike Hammett]

So we only had ~430 last year? 

I always thought we were almost double that, but I guess that's counting the 
vendors, associates, etc. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Hogg"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:12:24 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 


The value of WISPA goes well beyond the conferences...the conferences fund the 
purpose of WISPA, which is to continue to advocate for our industry in 
Washington at both the house/senate congressional and FCC levels. WISPA 
advocates on your industry's behalf. The conferences and lists are how we bring 
everyone together to fulfill the mission. The likes of Mark Radabaugh, Alex 
Phillips, Jimmy Carr, and many more before us have volunteered to participate 
on your behalf advocating for your industry. You either support that concept or 
act on your own behalf. 


Awareness wise is hard. We've completed multiple different methods of outreach 
to potential members over the last 5 years, and this year has been our most 
successful. There was an increase of 154 new principle members this past year. 
That represents a pretty substantial increase. That's largely in part to the 
membership/sales coordinator that was hired. The other problem is that there is 
a lot of consolidation in the industry as well. 


I welcome the input, keep it coming :) 



Regards, 
Chuck 

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



"it's" 


On Oct 17, 2017 1:06 PM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Yes, awareness is terrible. What do you expect from a bunch of tech guys? 
marketing? :-p 

The work in Washington provides more value than the conferences. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Josh Reynolds" < j...@kyneticwifi.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:00:20 PM 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 



two things: 


1) awareness of the organization and it's purpose is terrible 


2) how much value can the organization provide to those who don't or can't go 
to conferences? 



On Oct 17, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 





Only 588 Principle Members? We've gotta figure out how to get more of those US 
WISPs to join. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Chuck Hogg" < ch...@shelbybb.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:23:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 



1880+ attendees at the show 
 
Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA 
150 Vendors 

588 Principle Members 
6 Associate 
10 Advisory 



Regards, 
Chuck 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris < t...@franklinisp.net > wrote: 







I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send Luke 
down for a week. (if needed) 

In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number 
attending. 
I want to know membership numbers. 


Tyson Burris, President 
Internet Communications Inc. 
739 Commerce Dr. 
Franklin, IN 46131 

Daytime # 317-738-0320 
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540 
Online: www.surfici.net 

ICI
What can ICI do for you? 

Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
addressee shown. It contains information that is 
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
prohibited. 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini 
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 


I can take asome help in! And I need it! 



Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS … 







From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski < 
andr...@silowireless.com > 
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 




I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have not 
heard anything as of yet. 

I could not imagine the stress. 


Cheers, 

Andreas Wiatowski, CEO 
Silo Wireless Inc. 
1-866-727-4138 x-600 
http://www.silowireless.com 
Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV 

_ 
The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for 
the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and 
may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient 
of 

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Chuck Hogg]

The value of WISPA goes well beyond the conferences...the conferences fund
the purpose of WISPA, which is to continue to advocate for our industry in
Washington at both the house/senate congressional and FCC levels.  WISPA
advocates on your industry's behalf.  The conferences and lists are how we
bring everyone together to fulfill the mission.  The likes of Mark
Radabaugh, Alex Phillips, Jimmy Carr, and many more before us have
volunteered to participate on your behalf advocating for your industry.
You either support that concept or act on your own behalf.

Awareness wise is hard.  We've completed multiple different methods of
outreach to potential members over the last 5 years, and this year has been
our most successful.  There was an increase of 154 new principle members
this past year.  That represents a pretty substantial increase.  That's
largely in part to the membership/sales coordinator that was hired.  The
other problem is that there is a lot of consolidation in the industry as
well.

I welcome the input, keep it coming :)

Regards,
Chuck

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> "it's"
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 1:06 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
> Yes, awareness is terrible. What do you expect from a bunch of tech guys?
> marketing?  :-p
>
> The work in Washington provides more value than the conferences.
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Josh Reynolds" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:00:20 PM
>
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
> two things:
>
> 1) awareness of the organization and it's purpose is terrible
>
> 2) how much value can the organization provide to those who don't or can't
> go to conferences?
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:
>
>> Only 588 Principle Members? We've gotta figure out how to get more of
>> those US WISPs to join.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Chuck Hogg" 
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:23:08 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>
>> 1880+ attendees at the show
>> 
>> Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA
>> 150 Vendors
>> 588 Principle Members
>> 6 Associate
>> 10 Advisory
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chuck
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris  wrote:
>>
>>> I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send
>>> Luke down for a week. (if needed)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number
>>> attending.
>>>
>>> I want to know membership numbers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Tyson Burris, President*
>>> *Internet Communications Inc.*
>>> *739 Commerce Dr.
>>> *
>>> *Franklin, IN 46131
>>> *
>>>
>>> *Daytime #* *317-738-0320 <(317)%20738-0320> *
>>> *Cell/Direct #* *317-412-1540 <(317)%20412-1540> *
>>> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: ICI]
>>>
>>> *What can ICI do for you?*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones -
>>> IP Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>>>
>>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
>>> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
>>> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
>>> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
>>> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
>>> *prohibited.*
>>>
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Jason McKemie]

The Procera option is huge as well IMO.  I'll probably start using Sonar in
the first part of next year.  Does Sonar have its own CC processing or does
it just integrate with others?

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Sterling Jacobson 
wrote:

> My problem and some of the reasons I’m switching to Sonar are:
>
>
>
> PCI compliance of Platypus, it was somehow always out of compliance the
> day after I paid techs to put it back in compliance.
>
>
>
> Running and hosting myself requires constant upkeep of the OS itself which
> introduced problems now and then over the years.
>
>
>
> I’ve hosted on my own hardware and it’s a PITA sometimes to deal with dual
> disk failure and constant backups and testing of those backups.
>
> I’ve had to rebuild my own hardware from scratch after a raid failure of
> multiple disks, then finding out my backups were corrupt and outdated too.
>
> We had to manually enter and catch up accounts by hand after that POS.
>
>
>
> This time around I used the same platform but on a VM so I didn’t have to
> worry about the hardware, it was redundant geographically.
>
> But then on the 15th of this month THAT company went bust and closed down
> all of its VM’s.
>
> I am now back to hosting Platypus in a VM that I converted to run on my
> own desktop right now, lol!
>
>
>
> I’m moving to Sonar so it’s back with a hosted platform, but they are
> responsible for everything to be current compliant and running.
>
> That is a lot cheaper per customer per month than hiring a person to do
> that, and even not much more than a good VM hosted platform that doesn’t
> crawl like molasses when you RDP to it.
>
>
>
> I moved my Quickbooks instance/server to Cloud9 when my VM host provider
> went bye bye, and that is cheap, but man is it SLLLOWWW.
>
>
>
> Plus they have a growing feature set that I like that integrates more and
> more of my OSS features and ticketing and integration with paid tech/sales
> support etc.
>
>
>
> I like the idea of automation, and if they can come through the painful
> conversion part and help me automate my systems then it’s a total win.
>
>
>
> If they go belly up, I’m sure there is a way to get my data and make
> conversion back to something else.
>
> I’m not too worried about that as long as I set up backups that I can
> visibly verify as having the information I need to rebuild somewhere else.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Matt Hoppes
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:59 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
>
>
> We are going on 10 :)
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 16:55, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> Right, keep that running for 30 years with no support.
>
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 1:36 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> wrote:
>
> Local install.
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they
> are bankrupt, they are bankrupt.
>
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> wrote:
>
> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and
> my customer information high and dry with no recourse.
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
>
>
>
> Others are NOT the same.
>
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> wrote:
>
> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
>
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
>
>
> Fail.
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet.
> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>
> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>
>
>
> -- Nathan
> --
>
> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
>
>
> Yea, this seems to be a 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Robert]

And be willing to port their DB over through different formats each time 
with the financial consequences..


On 10/17/17 11:48 AM, James Howard wrote:
So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose one 
and stick with it for life while others will play the field, pick the 
hottest youngest available model and then get tired of it and move to 
something newer and flashier every few years?


*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Same goes for picking a wife.

*From:*Matt Hoppes

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the 
first time.



On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28, > 
> wrote:


It never goes smoothly.

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out
their software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They
migrated off an old dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the
latest software.  I think it took more than 6 months to actually get
it up and going.

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have
migrated software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never
smooth, always pain.

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably
the easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the
process.

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all
they want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.

*From:*Nathan Anderson

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their
new vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an
effective or good job of it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an
option, or at least is not something that is guaranteed to work or
go smoothly.

-- Nathan

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*ch...@wbmfg.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways. 
Several times.


Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.

You get what you pay for.

*From:*Nathan Anderson

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is:
you still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data
from one schema into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll
get support from your new vendor with that, maybe not.  There will
be mistakes made during that process, and some of it will have to be
re-done.  You also have to hook the new product into all of your
authentication systems and then test that to make sure it works and
doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the
new software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do
what you need it to do and which you already knew how to do with the
old software.  People will get billed wrong for a while and then
you'll have to sort out that mess as your customers bring the
billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need to get
billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that
shouldn't have been.  And on and on.

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed
into the deep end of the pool on day 1.

-- Nathan

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*ch...@wbmfg.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database. 
You will only be screwed for a very short time.


*From:*Nathan Anderson

*Sent:*Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can
certainly be a component depending on how things are designed.  It
sounds like perhaps Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable
access to exports of your data for you to backup yourself, and for
the moment, I'm going to give 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[James Howard]

So you’re saying that some people will take their time and choose one and stick 
with it for life while others will play the field, pick the hottest youngest 
available model and then get tired of it and move to something newer and 
flashier every few years?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 4:42 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Same goes for picking a wife.

From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first time.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28, > 
> wrote:
It never goes smoothly.

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the easiest 
due to the IT department being very hands on through the process.

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they want, 
but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.
You get what you pay for.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

Same goes for picking a wife.  

From: Matt Hoppes 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:38 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first time.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:


  It never goes smoothly.

  I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

  I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

  Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

  It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they 
want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

  From: Nathan Anderson 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

  Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.  

  Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

  You get what you pay for.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

   

  Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as 
your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that 
need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will 
get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't 
have been.  And on and on.

   

  If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

   

  -- Nathan

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  

   

  From: Nathan Anderson 

  Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

   

  I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

   

  It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be 
a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

   

  I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to 
an organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and 
fast.

   

  The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

   

  In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your 
own computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes 
out of business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Sterling Jacobson]

My problem and some of the reasons I’m switching to Sonar are:

PCI compliance of Platypus, it was somehow always out of compliance the day 
after I paid techs to put it back in compliance.

Running and hosting myself requires constant upkeep of the OS itself which 
introduced problems now and then over the years.

I’ve hosted on my own hardware and it’s a PITA sometimes to deal with dual disk 
failure and constant backups and testing of those backups.
I’ve had to rebuild my own hardware from scratch after a raid failure of 
multiple disks, then finding out my backups were corrupt and outdated too.
We had to manually enter and catch up accounts by hand after that POS.

This time around I used the same platform but on a VM so I didn’t have to worry 
about the hardware, it was redundant geographically.
But then on the 15th of this month THAT company went bust and closed down all 
of its VM’s.
I am now back to hosting Platypus in a VM that I converted to run on my own 
desktop right now, lol!

I’m moving to Sonar so it’s back with a hosted platform, but they are 
responsible for everything to be current compliant and running.
That is a lot cheaper per customer per month than hiring a person to do that, 
and even not much more than a good VM hosted platform that doesn’t crawl like 
molasses when you RDP to it.

I moved my Quickbooks instance/server to Cloud9 when my VM host provider went 
bye bye, and that is cheap, but man is it SLLLOWWW.

Plus they have a growing feature set that I like that integrates more and more 
of my OSS features and ticketing and integration with paid tech/sales support 
etc.

I like the idea of automation, and if they can come through the painful 
conversion part and help me automate my systems then it’s a total win.

If they go belly up, I’m sure there is a way to get my data and make conversion 
back to something else.
I’m not too worried about that as long as I set up backups that I can visibly 
verify as having the information I need to rebuild somewhere else.



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

We are going on 10 :)

On Oct 17, 2017, at 16:55, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
Right, keep that running for 30 years with no support.

On Oct 17, 2017 1:36 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> 
wrote:
Local install.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are 
bankrupt, they are bankrupt.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> 
wrote:
It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.

Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> 
wrote:
No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.


-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Fail.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. Once 
you sign the contract, you start paying.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson 
> wrote:

​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed for a 
one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with recurring 
revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help the customer 
move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a 
paying customer ASAP.



-- Nathan


From: Af > on behalf of Lewis 
Bergman >
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What they all 
should really say is that they help you convert. I am going through 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

A great reason to make sure you pick the right billing platform the first time.

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:
> 
> It never goes smoothly.
>  
> I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their  
> software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an 
> old dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think 
> it took more than 6 months to actually get it up and going. 
>  
> I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
> software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.
>  
> Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
> easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process.
>  
> It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they  
> want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease. 
>  
> From: Nathan Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
> either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
> it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
> that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.
>  
> -- Nathan
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times. 
> Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me. 
> You get what you pay for. 
>  
> From: Nathan Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
> have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
> another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
> vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that 
> process, and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the 
> new product into all of your authentication systems and then test that to 
> make sure it works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.
>  
> Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
> software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
> it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
> will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess 
> as your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people 
> that need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates 
> will get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that 
> shouldn't have been.  And on and on.
>  
> If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
> over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
> the pool on day 1.
>  
> -- Nathan
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
> only be screwed for a very short time. 
>  
> From: Nathan Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.
>  
> It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be 
> a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps 
> Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for 
> you to backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the 
> benefit of the doubt on this.
>  
> I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to 
> an organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and 
> fast.
>  
> The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
> but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One 
> big-E-on-the-eyechart one is what happens if the product is discontinued, 
> either because the parent company/developers go out of business or for some 
> other reason.
>  
> In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your 
> own  computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes 
> out of business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does 
> not suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades 
> and fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to 
> figure out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can 
> migrate to a new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

Yes. Sonar was not on boarding for someone. 

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 17:28,   wrote:
> 
> It never goes smoothly.
>  
> I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their  
> software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an 
> old dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think 
> it took more than 6 months to actually get it up and going. 
>  
> I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
> software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.
>  
> Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
> easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the process.
>  
> It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they  
> want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease. 
>  
> From: Nathan Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
> either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
> it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
> that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.
>  
> -- Nathan
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times. 
> Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me. 
> You get what you pay for. 
>  
> From: Nathan Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
> have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
> another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
> vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that 
> process, and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the 
> new product into all of your authentication systems and then test that to 
> make sure it works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.
>  
> Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
> software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need 
> it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People 
> will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess 
> as your customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people 
> that need to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates 
> will get miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that 
> shouldn't have been.  And on and on.
>  
> If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
> over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
> the pool on day 1.
>  
> -- Nathan
>  
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
> only be screwed for a very short time. 
>  
> From: Nathan Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.
>  
> It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be 
> a component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps 
> Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for 
> you to backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the 
> benefit of the doubt on this.
>  
> I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to 
> an organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and 
> fast.
>  
> The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
> but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One 
> big-E-on-the-eyechart one is what happens if the product is discontinued, 
> either because the parent company/developers go out of business or for some 
> other reason.
>  
> In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your 
> own  computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes 
> out of business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does 
> not suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades 
> and fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to 
> figure out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can 
> migrate to a new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in 
> the meantime, 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Adam Moffett]

Then I guess you guys are in agreement on the facts, but disagree on the 
severity of the problem?



-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 5:28:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


It never goes smoothly.

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out 
their software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They 
migrated off an old dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the 
latest software.  I think it took more than 6 months to actually get it 
up and going.


I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have 
migrated software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, 
always pain.


Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the 
easiest due to the IT department being very hands on through the 
process.


It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all 
they want, but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.


From:Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new 
vendor either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective 
or good job of it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at 
least is not something that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.




-- Nathan



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several 
times.


Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.

You get what you pay for.



From: Nathan Anderson

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

To:af@afmug.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you 
still have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one 
schema into another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support 
from your new vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made 
during that process, and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also 
have to hook the new product into all of your authentication systems 
and then test that to make sure it works and doesn't suddenly break 
people's connections.




Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new 
software that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what 
you need it to do and which you already knew how to do with the old 
software.  People will get billed wrong for a while and then you'll 
have to sort out that mess as your customers bring the billing mistakes 
to your attention.  Some people that need to get billed won't 
be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get miscalculated.  
The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have been.  
And on and on.




If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and 
transition over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed 
into the deep end of the pool on day 1.




-- Nathan



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You 
will only be screwed for a very short time.




From: Nathan Anderson

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To:af@afmug.com

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar



I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.



It's really not about access to your own data, although that can 
certainly be a component depending on how things are designed.  It 
sounds like perhaps Sonar has no problem giving you reasonable access 
to exports of your data for you to backup yourself, and for the moment, 
I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt on this.




I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software 
is to an organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are 
losing money, and fast.




The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and 
user), but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One 
big-E-on-the-eyechart one is what happens if the product is 
discontinued, either because the parent company/developers go out of 
business or for some other reason.




In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use 
your own computing resources to execute the code, if the development 
company goes out of business one day, the software that you still 
possess a copy of does not suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, 
you won't get future upgrades and fixes to the product from the vendor, 
but at least you have some time to figure out what your options are and 
how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a new platform on YOUR 
OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, your business 
operations are not negatively impacted.




In the SaaS model, 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

It never goes smoothly.

I used to work for banks, talk about a headache when you change out their 
software that manages all the customer accounts etc.  They migrated off an old 
dinosaur main frame to an AS-400 with all the latest software.  I think it took 
more than 6 months to actually get it up and going.  

I have worked for several telephone companies and all of them have migrated 
software, most of them multiple times.  Again, never smooth, always pain.

Ditto for WISPS,  been there, done that too.  Platypus was probably the easiest 
due to the IT department being very hands on through the process. 

It never goes smoothly and they can guarantee everything to work all they want, 
but it will not work perfectly without elbow grease.  

From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.  

Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  

You get what you pay for.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

 

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

 

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

 

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your own 
computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes out of 
business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a 
new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, 
your business operations are not negatively impacted.

 

In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, unabridged, and 
up-to-date export of the data: when the product is discontinued without 
warning, and the company shuts down the software servers, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.  

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Nathan Anderson]

Didn't this thread start out with somebody complaining that their new vendor 
either wasn't willing to do this or weren't doing an effective or good job of 
it?  Vendor on-boarding is not always an option, or at least is not something 
that is guaranteed to work or go smoothly.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:15 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.
You get what you pay for.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your own 
computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes out of 
business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a 
new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, 
your business operations are not negatively impacted.

In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, unabridged, and 
up-to-date export of the data: when the product is discontinued without 
warning, and the company shuts down the software servers, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.  
That data export does you zero good if you don't have product to process and 
interpret and act on it.  In the case of billing software, this means you are 
not collecting payments for service from your customers, which is a big 
problem.  Even if you could find a suitable replacement for the software the 
next day, you still have to figure out how to massage the data export you do 
have so that the new software can import it, work through the inevitable 
imperfections of that import (certain fields from the export that don't map 
cleanly to fields in the new product), learn a new piece of software from 
scratch, and figure out how to get by or work around issues resulting from 
"feature X" that you depended heavily on in the old software but which no 
longer exists in any form in the new one.  Things WILL be complete chaos for a 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

Been through this many times in my life.  Done it both ways.  Several times.  
Prefer the new vendor to do onboarding for me.  
You get what you pay for.  

From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:11 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

 

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

 

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  

 

From: Nathan Anderson 

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

 

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

 

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

 

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your own 
computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes out of 
business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a 
new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, 
your business operations are not negatively impacted.

 

In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, unabridged, and 
up-to-date export of the data: when the product is discontinued without 
warning, and the company shuts down the software servers, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.  
That data export does you zero good if you don't have product to process and 
interpret and act on it.  In the case of billing software, this means you are 
not collecting payments for service from your customers, which is a big 
problem.  Even if you could find a suitable replacement for the software the 
next day, you still have to figure out how to massage the data export you do 
have so that the new software can import it, work through the inevitable 
imperfections of that import (certain fields from the export that don't map 
cleanly to fields in the new product), learn a new piece of software from 
scratch, and figure out how to get by or work around issues resulting from 
"feature X" that you depended heavily on in the old software but which no 
longer exists in any form in the new one.  Things WILL be complete chaos for a 
while; there's no way around this.

 

We are actively looking for a new billing platform, and in the meantime we have 
been running a piece of software that we bought and implemented back when it 
was in active development but which has now been discontinued for years.  The 
reason that this is even possible is because it is self-hosted.  Back when this 
product was being developed, it was very popular and sold very well.  Nothing 
is "too big to fail"...nothing.  Heck, Google 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Nathan Anderson]

Not true.  It doesn't matter what the file format of the export is: you still 
have to take the time to figure out how to shoehorn data from one schema into 
another.  As talked about earlier, maybe you'll get support from your new 
vendor with that, maybe not.  There will be mistakes made during that process, 
and some of it will have to be re-done.  You also have to hook the new product 
into all of your authentication systems and then test that to make sure it 
works and doesn't suddenly break people's connections.

Then there will be the mistakes that come from actually using the new software 
that you are unfamiliar with, and/or cajoling it to do what you need it to do 
and which you already knew how to do with the old software.  People will get 
billed wrong for a while and then you'll have to sort out that mess as your 
customers bring the billing mistakes to your attention.  Some people that need 
to get billed won't be...others will get double-billed.  Pro-rates will get 
miscalculated.  The system will on-hold somebody by mistake that shouldn't have 
been.  And on and on.

If the software is locally hosted, you can learn a new system and transition 
over to it on your own schedule, instead of being pushed into the deep end of 
the pool on day 1.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.

From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your own 
computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes out of 
business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a 
new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, 
your business operations are not negatively impacted.

In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, unabridged, and 
up-to-date export of the data: when the product is discontinued without 
warning, and the company shuts down the software servers, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.  
That data export does you zero good if you don't have product to process and 
interpret and act on it.  In the case of billing software, this means you are 
not collecting payments for service from your customers, which is a big 
problem.  Even if you could find a suitable replacement for the software the 
next day, you still have to figure out how to massage the data export you do 
have so that the new software can import it, work through the inevitable 
imperfections of that import (certain fields from the export that don't map 
cleanly to fields in the new product), learn a new piece of software from 
scratch, and figure out how to get by or work around issues resulting from 
"feature X" that you depended heavily on in the old software but which no 
longer exists in any form in the new one.  Things WILL be complete chaos for a 
while; there's no way around this.

We are actively looking for a new billing platform, and in the meantime we have 
been running a piece of software that we bought and implemented back when it 
was in active development but which has now been discontinued for years.  The 
reason that this is even possible is because it is self-hosted.  Back when this 
product was being developed, it was very popular and sold very well.  Nothing 
is "too big to fail"...nothing.  Heck, Google has shitcanned their fair share 
of services over the years after deeming them inviable, leaving devoted users 
of them high-and-dry.

That we have personally experienced having a billing software vendor go 
belly-up gives us great pause when it comes to evaluating our options in the 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[chuck]

Export backups as CSV and you can re-import it into any database.  You will 
only be screwed for a very short time.  

From: Nathan Anderson 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

 

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

 

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

 

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

 

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your own 
computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes out of 
business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a 
new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, 
your business operations are not negatively impacted.

 

In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, unabridged, and 
up-to-date export of the data: when the product is discontinued without 
warning, and the company shuts down the software servers, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.  
That data export does you zero good if you don't have product to process and 
interpret and act on it.  In the case of billing software, this means you are 
not collecting payments for service from your customers, which is a big 
problem.  Even if you could find a suitable replacement for the software the 
next day, you still have to figure out how to massage the data export you do 
have so that the new software can import it, work through the inevitable 
imperfections of that import (certain fields from the export that don't map 
cleanly to fields in the new product), learn a new piece of software from 
scratch, and figure out how to get by or work around issues resulting from 
"feature X" that you depended heavily on in the old software but which no 
longer exists in any form in the new one.  Things WILL be complete chaos for a 
while; there's no way around this.

 

We are actively looking for a new billing platform, and in the meantime we have 
been running a piece of software that we bought and implemented back when it 
was in active development but which has now been discontinued for years.  The 
reason that this is even possible is because it is self-hosted.  Back when this 
product was being developed, it was very popular and sold very well.  Nothing 
is "too big to fail"...nothing.  Heck, Google has shitcanned their fair share 
of services over the years after deeming them inviable, leaving devoted users 
of them high-and-dry.

 

That we have personally experienced having a billing software vendor go 
belly-up gives us great pause when it comes to evaluating our options in the 
hosted/cloud space.  This is not to say that we would never consider 
billing-in-the-cloud, but it would have to be awfully compelling, and I think 
it would greatly help if there were certain guarantees in place.  One example 
would be if the developer held the source code of the software in escrow, to be 
automatically released if a "dead man's switch" were tripped.  I suspect this 
is what Matt has in mind when he talks about "contracts" -- they are not just 
about protecting the seller, but about protecting both parties.

 

-- Nathan

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:37 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 

Local install. 


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

  Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are 
bankrupt, they are bankrupt.

   

  On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
wrote:

  It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse.


  On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.

 

Others are NOT the same.

 

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

We are going on 10 :)

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 16:55, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> Right, keep that running for 30 years with no support.
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017 1:36 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
>> wrote:
>> Local install. 
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are 
>>> bankrupt, they are bankrupt.
>>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
>>> wrote:
>>> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and 
>>> my customer information high and dry with no recourse.
>>> 
 On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
 
 They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
 otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
 
 Others are NOT the same.
 
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
>  wrote:
 
> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary. 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>> 
>> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated 
>> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is 
>> $100/month.
>> 
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>> 
>>> Fail. 
>>> 
 On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  
 wrote:
 
 Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system 
 yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
 
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  
> wrote:
> ​I can understand this if the product in question is 
> purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have 
> a SaaS model with recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in 
> your best interest to help the customer move existing data over to 
> your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a paying customer 
> ASAP.
> 
> -- Nathan
>  
> From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 
> 
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>  
> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. 
> What they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am 
> going through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand 
> for them to convert our database. What it really was was a half 
> hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they 
> spent zero time checking for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
> 
> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have 
> a whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies 
> job. Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to 
> be the rule not the exception.
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>>  wrote:
> 
>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>> 
>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do 
>> all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not 
>> free.
>> 
>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, 
>> but I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>> 
>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so 
>> far the process has been a total snoozer.
>> 
>> 
>>> 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Reynolds]

Right, keep that running for 30 years with no support.

On Oct 17, 2017 1:36 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
wrote:

> Local install.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they
> are bankrupt, they are bankrupt.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> wrote:
>
> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and
> my customer information high and dry with no recourse.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
>
> Others are NOT the same.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> wrote:
>
>> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>
>> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
>> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> Fail.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>>
>> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system
>> yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>>
>>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
>>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
>>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
>>> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
>>> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Nathan
>>> --
>>> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
>>> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>>
>>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
>>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
>>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
>>> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
>>> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
>>> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>>
>>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
>>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
>>> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
>>> the exception.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

 I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
 my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.

 I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
 I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.

 Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
 the process has been a total snoozer.



>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Nathan Anderson]

I have to say that I'm partially with Matt on this one.

It's really not about access to your own data, although that can certainly be a 
component depending on how things are designed.  It sounds like perhaps Sonar 
has no problem giving you reasonable access to exports of your data for you to 
backup yourself, and for the moment, I'm going to give them the benefit of the 
doubt on this.

I don't think I have to convince anyone how critical billing software is to an 
organization.  If it screws up or stops working, you are losing money, and fast.

The SaaS model has some clear benefits to both parties (developer and user), 
but it has an equal number of new downsides as well.  One big-E-on-the-eyechart 
one is what happens if the product is discontinued, either because the parent 
company/developers go out of business or for some other reason.

In the traditional software licensing and hosting model, where you use your own 
computing resources to execute the code, if the development company goes out of 
business one day, the software that you still possess a copy of does not 
suddenly become less useful to you.  Sure, you won't get future upgrades and 
fixes to the product from the vendor, but at least you have some time to figure 
out what your options are and how you want to proceed, and you can migrate to a 
new platform on YOUR OWN timetable, not someone else's.  And in the meantime, 
your business operations are not negatively impacted.

In the SaaS model, it doesn't matter if you have a complete, unabridged, and 
up-to-date export of the data: when the product is discontinued without 
warning, and the company shuts down the software servers, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.  
That data export does you zero good if you don't have product to process and 
interpret and act on it.  In the case of billing software, this means you are 
not collecting payments for service from your customers, which is a big 
problem.  Even if you could find a suitable replacement for the software the 
next day, you still have to figure out how to massage the data export you do 
have so that the new software can import it, work through the inevitable 
imperfections of that import (certain fields from the export that don't map 
cleanly to fields in the new product), learn a new piece of software from 
scratch, and figure out how to get by or work around issues resulting from 
"feature X" that you depended heavily on in the old software but which no 
longer exists in any form in the new one.  Things WILL be complete chaos for a 
while; there's no way around this.

We are actively looking for a new billing platform, and in the meantime we have 
been running a piece of software that we bought and implemented back when it 
was in active development but which has now been discontinued for years.  The 
reason that this is even possible is because it is self-hosted.  Back when this 
product was being developed, it was very popular and sold very well.  Nothing 
is "too big to fail"...nothing.  Heck, Google has shitcanned their fair share 
of services over the years after deeming them inviable, leaving devoted users 
of them high-and-dry.

That we have personally experienced having a billing software vendor go 
belly-up gives us great pause when it comes to evaluating our options in the 
hosted/cloud space.  This is not to say that we would never consider 
billing-in-the-cloud, but it would have to be awfully compelling, and I think 
it would greatly help if there were certain guarantees in place.  One example 
would be if the developer held the source code of the software in escrow, to be 
automatically released if a "dead man's switch" were tripped.  I suspect this 
is what Matt has in mind when he talks about "contracts" -- they are not just 
about protecting the seller, but about protecting both parties.

-- Nathan

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:37 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Local install.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are 
bankrupt, they are bankrupt.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> 
wrote:
It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.

Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> 
wrote:
No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Luthman]

Do you contract your customers with the WISP?  I don't.

The contract is a deterrent that keeps some customers away for "no
reason".  It doesn't make them sticky as they'll find a way out of it if
they really want out.

If you're a customer of Sonar you're not leaving them without a damn good
reason, your business is invested in that platform.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Fail.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet.
> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>
>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
>> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
>> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>
>>
>> -- Nathan
>> --
>> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
>> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
>> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
>> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
>> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>
>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
>> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
>> the exception.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>>
>>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
>>> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>>
>>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
>>> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>>
>>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
>>> the process has been a total snoozer.
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[George Skorup]

I see 11GHz PCNs out of Ohio occasionally. That happens because IIRC, 
the coordination radius is 125 miles, but also 250 miles +/- 2.5 (or 5?) 
degrees on the path azimuth. It seems excessive, and it probably is, but 
that's the way it has worked for decades.


On 10/17/2017 9:21 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
Yes, and im hoping the boss renews it. I like the report. But id also 
like the google earth


On Oct 17, 2017 7:14 AM, "Tim Hardy" > wrote:


Steve,

I think Comsearch coordinated your link? If so, the path is
automatically covered by their protection service for one year at
no charge. Disclaimer - I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch -
officially retired on October 13th.

Tim

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones
> wrote:

you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I
have a huge  email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I
assume I add the same amount every time we step into another
license.

Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml
files. flag the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a
link or .. grrr data froma pdf) and ad it to a single google
earth file?

I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them
and look at the folder occasionally.

we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see
committing man time for all of them being valuable, buying
link protection services would be cheaper

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

Local install. 

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:32, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are 
> bankrupt, they are bankrupt.
> 
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
> wrote:
> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
> customer information high and dry with no recourse.
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>> 
>> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
>> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
>> 
>> Others are NOT the same.
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary. 
>>> 
 On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
 
 Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated 
 any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
 
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "Matt Hoppes" 
 To: af@afmug.com
 Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
 
> Fail. 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>> 
>> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system 
>> yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed 
>>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with 
>>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to 
>>> help the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, 
>>> and thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>> 
>>> -- Nathan
>>>  
>>> From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 
>>> 
>>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>>  
>>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What 
>>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going 
>>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them 
>>> to convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture 
>>> at putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time 
>>> checking for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>> 
>>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a 
>>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. 
>>> Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the 
>>> rule not the exception.
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
  wrote:
>>> 
 Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
 
 I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do 
 all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not 
 free.
 
 I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but 
 I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
 
 Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far 
 the process has been a total snoozer.
 
 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Josh Reynolds]

"it's"

On Oct 17, 2017 1:06 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

Yes, awareness is terrible. What do you expect from a bunch of tech guys?
marketing?  :-p

The work in Washington provides more value than the conferences.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 




Midwest Internet Exchange 



The Brothers WISP 




--
*From: *"Josh Reynolds" 
*To: *af@afmug.com
*Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:00:20 PM

*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

two things:

1) awareness of the organization and it's purpose is terrible

2) how much value can the organization provide to those who don't or can't
go to conferences?

On Oct 17, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> Only 588 Principle Members? We've gotta figure out how to get more of
> those US WISPs to join.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Chuck Hogg" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:23:08 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
> 1880+ attendees at the show
> 
> Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA
> 150 Vendors
> 588 Principle Members
> 6 Associate
> 10 Advisory
>
> Regards,
> Chuck
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris  wrote:
>
>> I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send
>> Luke down for a week. (if needed)
>>
>>
>>
>> In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number
>> attending.
>>
>> I want to know membership numbers.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Tyson Burris, President*
>> *Internet Communications Inc.*
>> *739 Commerce Dr.
>> *
>> *Franklin, IN 46131
>> *
>>
>> *Daytime #* *317-738-0320 <(317)%20738-0320> *
>> *Cell/Direct #* *317-412-1540 <(317)%20412-1540> *
>> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: ICI]
>>
>> *What can ICI do for you?*
>>
>>
>> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones -
>> IP Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>>
>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
>> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
>> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
>> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
>> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
>> *prohibited.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino A. Villarini
>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>
>>
>>
>> I can take asome help in! And I need it!
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS …
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Af  on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski <
>> andr...@silowireless.com>
>> *Reply-To: *"af@afmug.com" 
>> *Date: *Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM
>> *To: *"af@afmug.com" 
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>
>>
>>
>> I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have
>> not heard anything as of yet.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could not imagine the stress.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski, CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> 1-866-727-4138 x-600 <(866)%20727-4138>
>>
>> http://www.silowireless.com
>>
>> Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV
>>
>>
>>
>> _
>>
>> The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended
>> solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>> information and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not
>> the intended 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

Amen! 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adair Winter"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:35:19 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 


This is why I prefer my billing server live on my network and I back it up. 


On Oct 17, 2017 12:32 PM, "Chuck McCown" < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






I am sure you have the rights to all your data and they probably give you 
custody of periodic backups. 




From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 


What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract? 
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. It'll come 
down to trust. 

and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one. 


-- Original Message -- 
From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 





It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 





They provide enough value to avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it. 

Others are NOT the same. 


On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
wrote: 





No contract? That's frankly beyond scary. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 





Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month. 


-- Original Message -- 
From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 





Fail. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman < lewis.berg...@gmail.com > wrote: 





Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. Once 
you sign the contract, you start paying. 


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson < nath...@fsr.com > wrote: 





​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed for a 
one-time upfront fee. However, if you have a SaaS model with recurring 
revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help the customer 
move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a 
paying customer ASAP. 


-- Nathan 



From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Lewis Bergman < 
lewis.berg...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 






Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What they all 
should really say is that they help you convert. I am going through this with 
ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to convert our database. 
What it really was was a half hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel 
spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for sanity. They expect us to do 
all that. 

It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a whole 
team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not saying 
Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not the 
exception. 






On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson < sterl...@avative.net > 
wrote: 







Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar. 

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all my own 
conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free. 

I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but I've been 
on a hold with Sonar since last month. 

Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far the 
process has been a total snoozer. 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

A contract isn't going to stop that. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:27:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 





They provide enough value to avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it. 


Others are NOT the same. 


On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
wrote: 





No contract? That's frankly beyond scary. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 





Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month. 




-- Original Message -- 
From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 






Fail. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman < lewis.berg...@gmail.com > wrote: 





Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. Once 
you sign the contract, you start paying. 


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson < nath...@fsr.com > wrote: 





​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed for a 
one-time upfront fee. However, if you have a SaaS model with recurring 
revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help the customer 
move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a 
paying customer ASAP. 



-- Nathan 



From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Lewis Bergman < 
lewis.berg...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 






Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What they all 
should really say is that they help you convert. I am going through this with 
ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to convert our database. 
What it really was was a half hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel 
spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for sanity. They expect us to do 
all that. 


It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a whole 
team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not saying 
Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not the 
exception. 






On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson < sterl...@avative.net > 
wrote: 







Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar. 

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all my own 
conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free. 

I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but I've been 
on a hold with Sonar since last month. 

Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far the 
process has been a total snoozer. 

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Mike Hammett]

Yes, awareness is terrible. What do you expect from a bunch of tech guys? 
marketing? :-p 

The work in Washington provides more value than the conferences. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Josh Reynolds"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 1:00:20 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 


two things: 


1) awareness of the organization and it's purpose is terrible 


2) how much value can the organization provide to those who don't or can't go 
to conferences? 


On Oct 17, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Only 588 Principle Members? We've gotta figure out how to get more of those US 
WISPs to join. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Chuck Hogg" < ch...@shelbybb.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:23:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 



1880+ attendees at the show 
 
Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA 
150 Vendors 

588 Principle Members 
6 Associate 
10 Advisory 



Regards, 
Chuck 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris < t...@franklinisp.net > wrote: 





I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send Luke 
down for a week. (if needed) 

In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number 
attending. 
I want to know membership numbers. 


Tyson Burris, President 
Internet Communications Inc. 
739 Commerce Dr. 
Franklin, IN 46131 

Daytime # 317-738-0320 
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540 
Online: www.surfici.net 

ICI
What can ICI do for you? 

Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
addressee shown. It contains information that is 
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
prohibited. 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini 
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 


I can take asome help in! And I need it! 



Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS … 







From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski < 
andr...@silowireless.com > 
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 




I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have not 
heard anything as of yet. 

I could not imagine the stress. 


Cheers, 

Andreas Wiatowski, CEO 
Silo Wireless Inc. 
1-866-727-4138 x-600 
http://www.silowireless.com 
Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV 

_ 
The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for 
the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and 
may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient 
of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed to you in 
error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete this 
message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this 
message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. 



From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of " ch...@wbmfg.com " < 
ch...@wbmfg.com > 
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 2:53 PM 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 





I was just going to ask if Gino was receiving freight yet. 

And is there anything we need to send or do to help. 



Pretty helpless sitting here with no boots on the ground. 








Gino A. Villarini 

President 

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 

From: Andreas Wiatowski 



Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:51 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 





Hi Gino, 

Carbon fibre towers – Around 6k for 100ft. Expected inventory after December. 
Guy and self support upwards to 300ft. I found this pretty cool…and if they get 
small enough lattice…say 9”..then client towers for a UE at inexpensive 
pricepoint is pretty neat. The nice thing is less builing expense… could stack 
a tower without a crane or gin pole. 

Cambium is making a 60Ghz PTMP system. Probably be ready for next Wispapalooza… 

Otherwise, I agree, nothing knocked my socks off… 

BTW – Bicom was there..finally. 

Did you get your gear yet? 


Cheers, 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Mike Hammett]

How? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Matt Hoppes"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:22:51 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 



No contract? That's frankly beyond scary. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 





Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month. 




-- Original Message -- 
From: "Matt Hoppes" < mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 






Fail. 

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman < lewis.berg...@gmail.com > wrote: 





Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. Once 
you sign the contract, you start paying. 


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson < nath...@fsr.com > wrote: 





​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed for a 
one-time upfront fee. However, if you have a SaaS model with recurring 
revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help the customer 
move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a 
paying customer ASAP. 



-- Nathan 



From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Lewis Bergman < 
lewis.berg...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 






Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What they all 
should really say is that they help you convert. I am going through this with 
ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to convert our database. 
What it really was was a half hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel 
spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for sanity. They expect us to do 
all that. 


It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a whole 
team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not saying 
Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not the 
exception. 






On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson < sterl...@avative.net > 
wrote: 







Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar. 

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all my own 
conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free. 

I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but I've been 
on a hold with Sonar since last month. 

Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far the 
process has been a total snoozer. 

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Josh Reynolds]

two things:

1) awareness of the organization and it's purpose is terrible

2) how much value can the organization provide to those who don't or can't
go to conferences?

On Oct 17, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> Only 588 Principle Members? We've gotta figure out how to get more of
> those US WISPs to join.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Chuck Hogg" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:23:08 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
> 1880+ attendees at the show
> 
> Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA
> 150 Vendors
> 588 Principle Members
> 6 Associate
> 10 Advisory
>
> Regards,
> Chuck
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris  wrote:
>
>> I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send
>> Luke down for a week. (if needed)
>>
>>
>>
>> In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number
>> attending.
>>
>> I want to know membership numbers.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Tyson Burris, President*
>> *Internet Communications Inc.*
>> *739 Commerce Dr.
>> *
>> *Franklin, IN 46131
>> *
>>
>> *Daytime #* *317-738-0320 <(317)%20738-0320> *
>> *Cell/Direct #* *317-412-1540 <(317)%20412-1540> *
>> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: ICI]
>>
>> *What can ICI do for you?*
>>
>>
>> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones -
>> IP Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>>
>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
>> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
>> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
>> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
>> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
>> *prohibited.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino A. Villarini
>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>
>>
>>
>> I can take asome help in! And I need it!
>>
>>
>>
>> Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS …
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Af  on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski <
>> andr...@silowireless.com>
>> *Reply-To: *"af@afmug.com" 
>> *Date: *Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM
>> *To: *"af@afmug.com" 
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>
>>
>>
>> I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have
>> not heard anything as of yet.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could not imagine the stress.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski, CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> 1-866-727-4138 x-600 <(866)%20727-4138>
>>
>> http://www.silowireless.com
>>
>> Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV
>>
>>
>>
>> _
>>
>> The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended
>> solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>> information and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not
>> the intended recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message
>> has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by
>> reply email and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are
>> not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
>> dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is
>> strictly prohibited.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Af  on behalf of "ch...@wbmfg.com" <
>> ch...@wbmfg.com>
>> *Reply-To: *"af@afmug.com" 
>> *Date: *Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 2:53 PM
>> *To: *"af@afmug.com" 
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>
>>
>>
>> I was just going to ask if Gino was receiving freight  yet.
>>
>> And is there anything we need to send or do to help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pretty helpless sitting here with no boots on the ground.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Gino A. Villarini*
>>
>> President
>>
>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>>
>> *From:* Andreas Wiatowski
>>
>> *Sent:* 

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Mike Hammett]

Only 588 Principle Members? We've gotta figure out how to get more of those US 
WISPs to join. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Hogg"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:23:08 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 



1880+ attendees at the show 
 
Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA 
150 Vendors 

588 Principle Members 
6 Associate 
10 Advisory 



Regards, 
Chuck 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris < t...@franklinisp.net > wrote: 





I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send Luke 
down for a week. (if needed) 

In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number 
attending. 
I want to know membership numbers. 


Tyson Burris, President 
Internet Communications Inc. 
739 Commerce Dr. 
Franklin, IN 46131 

Daytime # 317-738-0320 
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540 
Online: www.surfici.net 

ICI
What can ICI do for you? 

Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
addressee shown. It contains information that is 
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
prohibited. 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini 
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 


I can take asome help in! And I need it! 



Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS … 







From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski < 
andr...@silowireless.com > 
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 




I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have not 
heard anything as of yet. 

I could not imagine the stress. 


Cheers, 

Andreas Wiatowski, CEO 
Silo Wireless Inc. 
1-866-727-4138 x-600 
http://www.silowireless.com 
Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV 

_ 
The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for 
the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and 
may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient 
of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed to you in 
error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete this 
message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this 
message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. 



From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of " ch...@wbmfg.com " < 
ch...@wbmfg.com > 
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 2:53 PM 
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 





I was just going to ask if Gino was receiving freight yet. 

And is there anything we need to send or do to help. 



Pretty helpless sitting here with no boots on the ground. 








Gino A. Villarini 

President 

Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 

From: Andreas Wiatowski 



Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:51 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef? 





Hi Gino, 

Carbon fibre towers – Around 6k for 100ft. Expected inventory after December. 
Guy and self support upwards to 300ft. I found this pretty cool…and if they get 
small enough lattice…say 9”..then client towers for a UE at inexpensive 
pricepoint is pretty neat. The nice thing is less builing expense… could stack 
a tower without a crane or gin pole. 

Cambium is making a 60Ghz PTMP system. Probably be ready for next Wispapalooza… 

Otherwise, I agree, nothing knocked my socks off… 

BTW – Bicom was there..finally. 

Did you get your gear yet? 


Cheers, 

Andreas Wiatowski, CEO 
Silo Wireless Inc. 
1-866-727-4138 x-600 
http://www.silowireless.com 
Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV 

_ 
The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely for 
the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and 
may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient 
of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed to you in 
error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete this 
message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any use, 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Reynolds]

Do you back up off site? When was the last time you tested your backup?
What if the billing software company went out of business? Etc.

My point is, nothing is promised in this world but physics.

Words, paper contracts, intent, etc... None of that really matters. Some
sort of legally binding agreement doesn't matter if the company can no
longer operate, if the banks close down, if there is a major natural
disaster, etc.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:35 PM, "Adair Winter" 
wrote:

> This is why I prefer my billing server live on my network and I back it
> up.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
>> I am sure  you have the rights to all your data and they probably give
>> you custody of periodic backups.
>>
>> *From:* Adam Moffett
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
>> They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. It'll
>> come down to trust.
>>
>> and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>>
>> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data
>> and my customer information high and dry with no recourse.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
>> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
>>
>> Others are NOT the same.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" > .net> wrote:
>>
>>> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>>
>>> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
>>> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>>
>>>
>>> Fail.
>>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system
>>> yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>>>
 ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
 for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
 recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
 the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus
 get them to be a paying customer ASAP.



 -- Nathan
 --
 *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
 lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
 *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

 Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
 they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
 through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
 convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
 putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
 for sanity. They expect us to do all that.

 It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
 whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
 saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
 the exception.

 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
 wrote:

> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>
> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do
> all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>
> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>
> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
> the process has been a total snoozer.
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

That is true, there is no term commitment, I don't believe in them for 
something like this. If we can't keep you as a customer without a term 
commitment, I certainly don't want to keep you just because of a 
financial consequence. Not good for anybody.


On 10/17/2017 12:35 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

Maybe rather than "No contract" I should have said, "no term commitment".


-- Original Message --
From: "Simon Westlake" >

To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:34:25 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

You can export the entirety of your data at any time (manually or on 
an automatic recurring schedule.)


Matt has already seen the agreement we have in place, he just likes 
to keep doing this dance for some inexplicable reason.


On 10/17/2017 12:32 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I am sure  you have the rights to all your data and they probably 
give you custody of periodic backups.

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. 
It'll come down to trust.

and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.
-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my 
data and my customer information high and dry with no recourse.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that 
would otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously 
earn it.

Others are NOT the same.
On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
 wrote:


No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett 
wrote:


Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you
haven't migrated any users in yet then you pay the
minimum.which I think is $100/month.
-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Fail.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman
 wrote:


Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on
their system yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson
 wrote:

​I can understand this if the product in question is
purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee. However,
if you have a SaaS model with recurring revenues, it
seems like it would be in your best interest to help
the customer move existing data over to your product
cost-free, and thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.

-- Nathan


*From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis
Bergman 
*Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software
industry. What they all should really say is that they
help you convert. I am going through this with ECi at
the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
convert our database. What it really was was a half
hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel
spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for
sanity. They expect us to do all that.
It seems that most software companies expect their
customers to have a whole team of people doing what
seems to be the software companies job. Not saying
Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be
the rule not the exception.
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson
 wrote:

Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't
tell me I had to do all my own conversion from Plat
to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.

I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to
their format, but I've been on a hold with Sonar
since last month.

Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing
system, but so far the process has been a total
snoozer.




--
Simon Westlake
Email:simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software


--
Simon Westlake
Email: 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Adam Moffett]

Maybe rather than "No contract" I should have said, "no term 
commitment".



-- Original Message --
From: "Simon Westlake" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:34:25 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

You can export the entirety of your data at any time (manually or on an 
automatic recurring schedule.)


Matt has already seen the agreement we have in place, he just likes to 
keep doing this dance for some inexplicable reason.


On 10/17/2017 12:32 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I am sure  you have the rights to all your data and they probably give 
you custody of periodic backups.


From:Adam Moffett
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. 
It'll come down to trust.


and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.


-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my 
data and my customer information high and dry with no recourse.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  
wrote:


They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that 
would otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously 
earn it.


Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
 wrote:

No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  
wrote:


Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't 
migrated any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I 
think is $100/month.



-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


Fail.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman 
 wrote:


Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their 
system yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson 
 wrote:
​I can understand this if the product in question is 
purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you 
have a SaaS model with recurring revenues, it seems like it 
would be in your best interest to help the customer move 
existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get them 
to be a paying customer ASAP.




-- Nathan


From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 


Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software 
industry. What they all should really say is that they help you 
convert. I am going through this with ECi at the moment. We 
paid several thousand for them to convert our database. What it 
really was was a half hearted gesture at putting the DB into an 
excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for 
sanity. They expect us to do all that.


It seems that most software companies expect their customers to 
have a whole team of people doing what seems to be the software 
companies job. Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that 
that seems to be the rule not the exception.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
 wrote:

Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had 
to do all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind 
that's not free.


I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their 
format, but I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.


Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but 
so far the process has been a total snoozer.





--
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Adair Winter]

This is why I prefer my billing server live on my network and I back it up.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> I am sure  you have the rights to all your data and they probably give you
> custody of periodic backups.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
> They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. It'll
> come down to trust.
>
> and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
>
> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and
> my customer information high and dry with no recourse.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
>
> Others are NOT the same.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
> wrote:
>
>> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>
>> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
>> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>>
>> Fail.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>>
>> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system
>> yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>>
>>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
>>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
>>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
>>> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus
>>> get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Nathan
>>> --
>>> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
>>> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>>
>>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
>>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
>>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
>>> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
>>> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
>>> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>>
>>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
>>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
>>> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
>>> the exception.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

 I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
 my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.

 I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
 I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.

 Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
 the process has been a total snoozer.

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Simon Westlake]

You can export the entirety of your data at any time (manually or on an 
automatic recurring schedule.)


Matt has already seen the agreement we have in place, he just likes to 
keep doing this dance for some inexplicable reason.


On 10/17/2017 12:32 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I am sure  you have the rights to all your data and they probably give 
you custody of periodic backups.

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. 
It'll come down to trust.

and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.
-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my 
data and my customer information high and dry with no recourse.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that 
would otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously 
earn it.

Others are NOT the same.
On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
 wrote:


No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:


Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't
migrated any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I
think is $100/month.
-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Fail.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman
 wrote:


Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on
their system yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson
 wrote:

​I can understand this if the product in question is
purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee.  However,
if you have a SaaS model with recurring revenues, it
seems like it would be in your best interest to help the
customer move existing data over to your product
cost-free, and thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.

-- Nathan


*From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis
Bergman 
*Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software
industry. What they all should really say is that they
help you convert. I am going through this with ECi at the
moment. We paid several thousand for them to convert our
database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture
at putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they
spent zero time checking for sanity. They expect us to do
all that.
It seems that most software companies expect their
customers to have a whole team of people doing what seems
to be the software companies job. Not saying Sonar fits
the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
the exception.
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson
 wrote:

Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell
me I had to do all my own conversion from Plat to
Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.

I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to
their format, but I've been on a hold with Sonar
since last month.

Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing
system, but so far the process has been a total snoozer.




--
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Chuck McCown]

I am sure  you have the rights to all your data and they probably give you 
custody of periodic backups.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 11:30 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. It'll come 
down to trust.  

and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.


-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

  It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse.

  On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:


They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it. 

Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
wrote:

  No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary. 

  On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:


Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated 
any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.


-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

  Fail. 

  On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:


Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their 
system yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  
wrote:

  ​I can understand this if the product in question is 
purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS 
model with recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest 
to help the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and 
thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.




  -- Nathan



--

  From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 

  Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar 

  Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. 
What they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going 
through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to 
convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at putting 
the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for sanity. 
They expect us to do all that. 

  It seems that most software companies expect their customers to 
have a whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. 
Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not 
the exception.

  On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
 wrote:

Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had 
to do all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.

I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their 
format, but I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.

Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but 
so far the process has been a total snoozer.

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Reynolds]

This.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:30 PM, "Adam Moffett"  wrote:

What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. It'll
come down to trust.

and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.


-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and
my customer information high and dry with no recourse.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.

Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
wrote:

> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Fail.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet.
> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>
>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
>> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
>> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>
>>
>> -- Nathan
>> --
>> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
>> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
>> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
>> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
>> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>
>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
>> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
>> the exception.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>>
>>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
>>> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>>
>>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
>>> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>>
>>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
>>> the process has been a total snoozer.
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Reynolds]

Good luck with that. Any company could close up shop today, and if they are
bankrupt, they are bankrupt.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:27 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
wrote:

It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and
my customer information high and dry with no recourse.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.

Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
wrote:

> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Fail.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet.
> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>
>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
>> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
>> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>
>>
>> -- Nathan
>> --
>> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
>> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
>> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
>> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
>> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>
>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
>> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
>> the exception.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>>
>>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
>>> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>>
>>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
>>> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>>
>>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
>>> the process has been a total snoozer.
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Chuck McCown]

How many attended the last WispAmerica?

From: Chuck Hogg 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

1880+ attendees at the show

Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA
150 Vendors

588 Principle Members
6 Associate
10 Advisory

Regards,
Chuck

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris  wrote:

  I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send Luke 
down for a week. (if needed)



  In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number 
attending.

  I want to know membership numbers.



  Tyson Burris, President 
  Internet Communications Inc. 
  739 Commerce Dr. 
  Franklin, IN 46131 

  Daytime # 317-738-0320 
  Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540 
  Online: www.surfici.net 





  What can ICI do for you? 


  Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 

  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
  addressee shown. It contains information that is 
  confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
  dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
  unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
  prohibited. 



  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
  Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?



  I can take asome help in! And I need it! 



  Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS …







  From: Af  on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski 

  Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
  Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM
  To: "af@afmug.com" 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?



  I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have not 
heard anything as of yet.



  I could not imagine the stress.



  Cheers,



  Andreas Wiatowski, CEO

  Silo Wireless Inc.

  1-866-727-4138 x-600

  http://www.silowireless.com

  Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV



  _

  The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely 
for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information 
and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended 
recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed 
to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then 
delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, 
you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of 
this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. 





  From: Af  on behalf of "ch...@wbmfg.com" 

  Reply-To: "af@afmug.com" 
  Date: Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 2:53 PM
  To: "af@afmug.com" 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?



  I was just going to ask if Gino was receiving freight  yet.  

  And is there anything we need to send or do to help.  



  Pretty helpless sitting here with no boots on the ground.  





Gino A. Villarini
   
President
   
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
   



  From: Andreas Wiatowski 

  Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:51 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?



  Hi Gino,



  Carbon fibre towers – Around 6k for 100ft.  Expected inventory after 
December.  Guy and self support upwards to 300ft.  I found this pretty cool…and 
if they get  small enough lattice…say 9”..then client towers for a UE at 
inexpensive pricepoint is pretty neat. The nice thing is less builing expense… 
could stack a tower without a crane or gin pole.



  Cambium is making a 60Ghz PTMP system.  Probably be ready for next 
Wispapalooza…



  Otherwise, I agree, nothing knocked my socks off… 



  BTW – Bicom was there..finally.



  Did you get your gear yet?



  Cheers,



  Andreas Wiatowski, CEO

  Silo Wireless Inc.

  1-866-727-4138 x-600

  http://www.silowireless.com

  Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV



  _

  The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely 
for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information 
and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended 
recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed 
to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then 
delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, 
you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of 
this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. 





  From: Af 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Adam Moffett]

What would your recourse be if you DID have a contract?
They might have a pending lawsuit, but you'd still be high and dry. 
It'll come down to trust.


and I imagine they'd produce a contract if you asked for one.


-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 1:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data 
and my customer information high and dry with no recourse.


On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that 
would otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn 
it.


Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
 wrote:

No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:

Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't 
migrated any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think 
is $100/month.



-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" >

To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


Fail.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:


Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their 
system yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  
wrote:
​I can understand this if the product in question is 
purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you 
have a SaaS model with recurring revenues, it seems like it would 
be in your best interest to help the customer move existing data 
over to your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a paying 
customer ASAP.




-- Nathan


From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 


Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. 
What they all should really say is that they help you convert. I 
am going through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several 
thousand for them to convert our database. What it really was was 
a half hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel 
spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for sanity. They 
expect us to do all that.


It seems that most software companies expect their customers to 
have a whole team of people doing what seems to be the software 
companies job. Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that 
that seems to be the rule not the exception.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
 wrote:

Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to 
do all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind 
that's not free.


I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their 
format, but I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.


Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but 
so far the process has been a total snoozer.

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

There are two places I absolutely want contracts. My fiber Internet provider, 
and my billing provider, and my tower sites. I lied three.

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:27, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
> customer information high and dry with no recourse.
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>> 
>> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
>> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
>> 
>> Others are NOT the same.
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
>>> wrote:
>>> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary. 
>>> 
 On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
 
 Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated 
 any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
 
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "Matt Hoppes" 
 To: af@afmug.com
 Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
 
> Fail. 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>> 
>> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system 
>> yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed 
>>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with 
>>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to 
>>> help the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, 
>>> and thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>> 
>>> -- Nathan
>>>  
>>> From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 
>>> 
>>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>>  
>>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What 
>>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going 
>>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them 
>>> to convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture 
>>> at putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time 
>>> checking for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>> 
>>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a 
>>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. 
>>> Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the 
>>> rule not the exception.
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
  wrote:
>>> 
 Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
 
 I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do 
 all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not 
 free.
 
 I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but 
 I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
 
 Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far 
 the process has been a total snoozer.
 
 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

It also means at any point they can just close up shop leaving my data and my 
customer information high and dry with no recourse.

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:24, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would 
> otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.
> 
> Others are NOT the same.
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes"  
>> wrote:
>> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary. 
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
>>> users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>> 
 Fail. 
 
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system 
> yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed 
>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with 
>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to 
>> help the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and 
>> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>> 
>> -- Nathan
>>  
>> From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>  
>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What 
>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going 
>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them 
>> to convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture 
>> at putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time 
>> checking for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>> 
>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a 
>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. 
>> Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the 
>> rule not the exception.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>> 
>>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all 
>>> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>> 
>>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but 
>>> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>> 
>>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far 
>>> the process has been a total snoozer.
>>> 
>>> 

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[Josh Reynolds]

Perform a proper risk analysis.

What is the value they provide? What garantees? What is the risk the
business undertakes by not having a professional perform the service?

On Oct 17, 2017 10:58 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:

> if only i held the purse strings
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> Pay for the service. They're the professionals.
>>
>> Your business value does not increase by trying to provide a business
>> service that you are not an expert in without the proper time, tools, or
>> data.
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017 9:21 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, and im hoping the boss renews it. I like the report. But id also
>>> like the google earth
>>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2017 7:14 AM, "Tim Hardy"  wrote:
>>>
 Steve,

 I think Comsearch coordinated your link?  If so, the path is
 automatically covered by their protection service for one year at no
 charge.  Disclaimer - I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch - officially
 retired on October 13th.

 Tim

 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

> you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I have a
> huge  email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I assume I add the same
> amount every time we step into another license.
>
> Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml files.
> flag the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a link or .. grrr 
> data
> froma pdf) and ad it to a single google earth file?
>
> I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them and look
> at the folder occasionally.
>
> we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see committing
> man time for all of them being valuable, buying link protection services
> would be cheaper
>

>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Josh Reynolds]

They provide enough value to  avoid locking you in a contract that would
otherwise retain your business when they don't continuously earn it.

Others are NOT the same.

On Oct 17, 2017 12:22 PM, "Matt Hoppes" 
wrote:

> No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated
> any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Fail.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet.
> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>
>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
>> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
>> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
>> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
>> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>>
>>
>> -- Nathan
>> --
>> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
>> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>
>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
>> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
>> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
>> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
>> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
>> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>>
>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
>> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
>> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
>> the exception.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>>
>>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
>>> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>>
>>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
>>> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>>
>>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far
>>> the process has been a total snoozer.
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

No contract?  That's frankly beyond scary. 

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 13:06, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated any 
> users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is $100/month.
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Matt Hoppes" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
> 
>> Fail. 
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. 
>>> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
 ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed 
 for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with 
 recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to 
 help the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and 
 thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
 
 -- Nathan
  
 From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 
 
 Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
 To: af@afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
  
 Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What 
 they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going 
 through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to 
 convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at 
 putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time 
 checking for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
 
 It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a 
 whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. 
 Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule 
 not the exception.
 
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson  
> wrote:
 
> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
> 
> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all 
> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
> 
> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but 
> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
> 
> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far the 
> process has been a total snoozer.
> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Adam Moffett]

Sonar is strictly per user with no contract, so if you haven't migrated 
any users in yet then you pay the minimum.which I think is 
$100/month.



-- Original Message --
From: "Matt Hoppes" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 10/17/2017 9:16:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar


Fail.

On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:


Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system 
yet. Once you sign the contract, you start paying.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  
wrote:
​I can understand this if the product in question is 
purchased/licensed for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have 
a SaaS model with recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in 
your best interest to help the customer move existing data over to 
your product cost-free, and thus get them to be a paying customer 
ASAP.




-- Nathan


From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 


Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. 
What they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am 
going through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand 
for them to convert our database. What it really was was a half 
hearted gesture at putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they 
spent zero time checking for sanity. They expect us to do all that.


It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have 
a whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies 
job. Not saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to 
be the rule not the exception.


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
 wrote:

Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.

I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do 
all my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not 
free.


I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, 
but I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.


Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so 
far the process has been a total snoozer.

Re: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

[Jesse DuPont]

  
  
We run the SMs bridged, but we put the LAN0 port of the SM on a
tagged VLAN (add WLAN0.50 interface, bridge WLAN0.50 and LAN0
together). On that tagged VLAN, we only allow PPPoE connections.
Yes, when a customer resets their router, we have to talk them
through PPPoE config, but at least the router's wizard is detecting
that PPPoE is the only available Internet connection. (Besides, you
still have to talk them through DHCP disable if they reset their
router under your current scenario anyway). Their traffic is
isolated from the CPE and AP management (at L2) and we disallow L3
traffic to infrastructure prefixes at the routers. We really don't
want the CPE's involved in L3 Internet reachability for customer
traffic. Just our philosophy; we treat the SMs as infrastructure,
not customer equipment.


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Jesse DuPont

  Network
  Architect
  email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
  Celerity Networks LLC
  Celerity
  Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc
  Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband
  

  

On 10/17/17 9:22 AM, Micah Miller
  wrote:


  Good morning all!

Currently we are running it on the CPE, but are considering moving it
to the customer router.
We were advised to put PPPoE on the CPE and configure the customer
router as an AP (disable dhcp, plug it into a lan port instead of the
wan/internet,etc).
My preference is to bridge the CPE and run it on the customer router,
but I am open to suggestions.

What is your preference?




  

Re: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

[Dennis Burgess]

I don’t think leaving the layer2 bridged connection from your CPE to your 
network open is well advised. I would let the CPE do the PPPoE session and let 
the client router be a bridge as you have been.  There is no point in having 
more IPs than needed, plus it eliminates the possibly for your client to do 
something wrong, either on purpose or not.  Just my two cents.

If PPPoE is eating up CPU, my suggestion is get a new cpe, as it don’t take 
that long to do.


Dennis Burgess – Network Solution Engineer – Consultant
MikroTik Certified 
Trainer/Consultant
 – MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE

For Wireless Hardware/Routers visit www.linktechs.net
Radio Frequency Coverages: www.towercoverage.com
Office: 314-735-0270
E-Mail: dmburg...@linktechs.net

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:36 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

I would do as you're advised.  :-)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Micah Miller" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:22:28 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

Good morning all!

Currently we are running it on the CPE, but are considering moving it
to the customer router.
We were advised to put PPPoE on the CPE and configure the customer
router as an AP (disable dhcp, plug it into a lan port instead of the
wan/internet,etc).
My preference is to bridge the CPE and run it on the customer router,
but I am open to suggestions.

What is your preference?

--
Micah Miller
Network/Server Administrator
Network Business Systems, Inc.
Phone: 309-944-8823

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Chuck Hogg]

1880+ attendees at the show

Membership totals for 2017 as of WISPAPALOOZA
150 Vendors
588 Principle Members
6 Associate
10 Advisory

Regards,
Chuck

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Tyson Burris  wrote:

> I sent a private message about ten days ago letting you know we can send
> Luke down for a week. (if needed)
>
>
>
> In terms of the show, I never did hear member numbers…only the number
> attending.
>
> I want to know membership numbers.
>
>
>
> *Tyson Burris, President*
> *Internet Communications Inc.*
> *739 Commerce Dr.
> *
> *Franklin, IN 46131
> *
>
> *Daytime #* *317-738-0320 <(317)%20738-0320> *
> *Cell/Direct #* *317-412-1540 <(317)%20412-1540> *
> *Online: **www.surfici.net* 
>
>
>
> [image: ICI]
>
> *What can ICI do for you?*
>
>
> *Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP
> Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.*
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the*
> *addressee shown. It contains information that is*
> *confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,*
> *dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by*
> *unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly*
> *prohibited.*
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino A. Villarini
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 15, 2017 3:11 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
>
>
> I can take asome help in! And I need it!
>
>
>
> Problem is housing! All hotels are booked by FEMA/FEDS …
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Af  on behalf of Andreas Wiatowski <
> andr...@silowireless.com>
> *Reply-To: *"af@afmug.com" 
> *Date: *Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 3:00 PM
> *To: *"af@afmug.com" 
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
>
>
> I put our name in with Brian Webster, myself and a couple climbers…have
> not heard anything as of yet.
>
>
>
> I could not imagine the stress.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Andreas Wiatowski, CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> 1-866-727-4138 x-600 <(866)%20727-4138>
>
> http://www.silowireless.com
>
> Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV
>
>
>
> _
>
> The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely
> for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> information and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not
> the intended recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message
> has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by
> reply email and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are
> not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments is
> strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Af  on behalf of "ch...@wbmfg.com" <
> ch...@wbmfg.com>
> *Reply-To: *"af@afmug.com" 
> *Date: *Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 2:53 PM
> *To: *"af@afmug.com" 
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
>
>
> I was just going to ask if Gino was receiving freight  yet.
>
> And is there anything we need to send or do to help.
>
>
>
> Pretty helpless sitting here with no boots on the ground.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Gino A. Villarini*
>
> President
>
> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>
> *From:* Andreas Wiatowski
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:51 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>
>
>
> Hi Gino,
>
>
>
> Carbon fibre towers – Around 6k for 100ft.  Expected inventory after
> December.  Guy and self support upwards to 300ft.  I found this pretty
> cool…and if they get  small enough lattice…say 9”..then client towers for a
> UE at inexpensive pricepoint is pretty neat. The nice thing is less builing
> expense… could stack a tower without a crane or gin pole.
>
>
>
> Cambium is making a 60Ghz PTMP system.  Probably be ready for next
> Wispapalooza…
>
>
>
> Otherwise, I agree, nothing knocked my socks off…
>
>
>
> BTW – Bicom was there..finally.
>
>
>
> Did you get your gear yet?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Andreas Wiatowski, CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> 1-866-727-4138 x-600 <(866)%20727-4138>
>
> http://www.silowireless.com
>
> Wireless | Fibre | VoIP | PBX | IPTV
>
>
>
> _
>
> The contents of this email message and any attachments are intended solely
> for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> information and may be legally protected from disclosure. If you are not
> the intended recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message
> has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by
> reply email and 

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[Steve Jones]

if only i held the purse strings

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> Pay for the service. They're the professionals.
>
> Your business value does not increase by trying to provide a business
> service that you are not an expert in without the proper time, tools, or
> data.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 9:21 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:
>
>> Yes, and im hoping the boss renews it. I like the report. But id also
>> like the google earth
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017 7:14 AM, "Tim Hardy"  wrote:
>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> I think Comsearch coordinated your link?  If so, the path is
>>> automatically covered by their protection service for one year at no
>>> charge.  Disclaimer - I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch - officially
>>> retired on October 13th.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I have a
 huge  email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I assume I add the same
 amount every time we step into another license.

 Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml files.
 flag the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a link or .. grrr data
 froma pdf) and ad it to a single google earth file?

 I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them and look
 at the folder occasionally.

 we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see committing
 man time for all of them being valuable, buying link protection services
 would be cheaper

>>>

Re: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

[Mike Hammett]

I would do as you're advised. :-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Micah Miller"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 10:22:28 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it? 

Good morning all! 

Currently we are running it on the CPE, but are considering moving it 
to the customer router. 
We were advised to put PPPoE on the CPE and configure the customer 
router as an AP (disable dhcp, plug it into a lan port instead of the 
wan/internet,etc). 
My preference is to bridge the CPE and run it on the customer router, 
but I am open to suggestions. 

What is your preference? 

-- 
Micah Miller 
Network/Server Administrator 
Network Business Systems, Inc. 
Phone: 309-944-8823 

Re: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

[Josh Baird]

Lots of people prefer to let radios do what they do best.. RF, not routing,
not PPPoE termination.  Leave the CPU cycles of the radio to RF, and let a
router (or other device) behind the CPE do (mostly) everything else.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Micah Miller  wrote:

> Good morning all!
>
> Currently we are running it on the CPE, but are considering moving it
> to the customer router.
> We were advised to put PPPoE on the CPE and configure the customer
> router as an AP (disable dhcp, plug it into a lan port instead of the
> wan/internet,etc).
> My preference is to bridge the CPE and run it on the customer router,
> but I am open to suggestions.
>
> What is your preference?
>
> --
> Micah Miller
> Network/Server Administrator
> Network Business Systems, Inc.
> Phone: 309-944-8823
>

Re: [AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

[Jason McKemie]

I always have preferred running the CPE as a bridge, less issues IMO.
Although, with PPPoE you do run the risk of customers resetting their
router to default or replacing it and not being able to get online without
assistance - so there are trade-offs.

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017, Micah Miller  wrote:

> Good morning all!
>
> Currently we are running it on the CPE, but are considering moving it
> to the customer router.
> We were advised to put PPPoE on the CPE and configure the customer
> router as an AP (disable dhcp, plug it into a lan port instead of the
> wan/internet,etc).
> My preference is to bridge the CPE and run it on the customer router,
> but I am open to suggestions.
>
> What is your preference?
>
> --
> Micah Miller
> Network/Server Administrator
> Network Business Systems, Inc.
> Phone: 309-944-8823
>

[AFMUG] PPPoE: How are you running it?

[Micah Miller]

Good morning all!

Currently we are running it on the CPE, but are considering moving it
to the customer router.
We were advised to put PPPoE on the CPE and configure the customer
router as an AP (disable dhcp, plug it into a lan port instead of the
wan/internet,etc).
My preference is to bridge the CPE and run it on the customer router,
but I am open to suggestions.

What is your preference?

-- 
Micah Miller
Network/Server Administrator
Network Business Systems, Inc.
Phone: 309-944-8823

Re: [AFMUG] I heard that....

[Darin Steffl]

So it's border patrol radar?

On Oct 17, 2017 9:39 AM, "Jaime Solorza"  wrote:

> This telescoping tower is less than quarter mile from international bridge
> and river.  The same dome antenna is on high rise bank building downtown
> and another on hospital rooftop all within a mile of river.   Shhh keep it
> quiet
>

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[Josh Reynolds]

Pay for the service. They're the professionals.

Your business value does not increase by trying to provide a business
service that you are not an expert in without the proper time, tools, or
data.

On Oct 17, 2017 9:21 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:

> Yes, and im hoping the boss renews it. I like the report. But id also like
> the google earth
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 7:14 AM, "Tim Hardy"  wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> I think Comsearch coordinated your link?  If so, the path is
>> automatically covered by their protection service for one year at no
>> charge.  Disclaimer - I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch - officially
>> retired on October 13th.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I have a
>>> huge  email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I assume I add the same
>>> amount every time we step into another license.
>>>
>>> Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml files.
>>> flag the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a link or .. grrr data
>>> froma pdf) and ad it to a single google earth file?
>>>
>>> I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them and look at
>>> the folder occasionally.
>>>
>>> we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see committing
>>> man time for all of them being valuable, buying link protection services
>>> would be cheaper
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[Steve Jones]

Yes, and im hoping the boss renews it. I like the report. But id also like
the google earth

On Oct 17, 2017 7:14 AM, "Tim Hardy"  wrote:

> Steve,
>
> I think Comsearch coordinated your link?  If so, the path is automatically
> covered by their protection service for one year at no charge.  Disclaimer
> - I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch - officially retired on October
> 13th.
>
> Tim
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I have a huge
>> email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I assume I add the same amount
>> every time we step into another license.
>>
>> Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml files.
>> flag the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a link or .. grrr data
>> froma pdf) and ad it to a single google earth file?
>>
>> I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them and look at
>> the folder occasionally.
>>
>> we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see committing man
>> time for all of them being valuable, buying link protection services would
>> be cheaper
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Matt Hoppes]

Fail. 

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 08:54, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet. 
> Once you sign the contract, you start paying.
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:
>> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed for 
>> a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with recurring 
>> revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help the 
>> customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and thus get 
>> them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>> 
>> -- Nathan
>>  
>> From: Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman 
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>>  
>> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What they 
>> all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going through this 
>> with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to convert our 
>> database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at putting the DB 
>> into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking for sanity. 
>> They expect us to do all that.
>> 
>> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a whole 
>> team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not saying 
>> Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not the 
>> exception.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson  
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>> 
>>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all my 
>>> own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>> 
>>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but I've 
>>> been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>> 
>>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far the 
>>> process has been a total snoozer.
>>> 
>>> 

Re: [AFMUG] Residential towers, (back on topic)

[Lewis Bergman]

I payed my way through college climbing towers others wouldn't climb. I
only had to work a few times a semester. i always demanded cash before I
climbed and brought a college buddy to hold the cash. 35 years ago I got
paid $3000 to relamp a tower nobody would climb. Two cross members came off
in my hand on the way up. What a rust bucket.

i am not suggesting anyone do the same, but some else may want to go to
college too.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:31 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> we have a tower trainer come do training off the cuff.
> best i can get.
> the very same knowledge is provided as you get by  a "certification"
> end of the day... people do what they do
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:21 PM, Justin Wilson  wrote:
>
>> I would say anyone who climbs towers should at the very least go to the
>> OSHA 10 hour class on fall protection. At the very least!  I have seen some
>> shady towers. Ones with no concrete in the base and the only thing
>> anchoring them was the house bracket.  Rusted towers.  You name it so I
>> have climbed towers others have deemed safe.  Call me stupid or whatever,
>> but I like to think I was more in tune with the tower than they were.  I
>> would never ask someone to climb something I wouldn’t.
>>
>> Having said that, if you have determined these “unsafe” towers are
>> actually not a problem offer the tech a few extra dollars for hazard pay.
>> It’s amazing how many towers now become safe.  It’s a double edged sword
>> though.  You don’t want your folks cutting out their safety for a few extra
>> bucks.
>>
>>
>> Justin Wilson
>> j...@mtin.net
>>
>> www.mtin.net
>> www.midwest-ix.com
>>
>> On Oct 3, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Ben Royer  wrote:
>>
>> Who has their employees climb residential towers?  Like the Rohn 25
>> variety that Ma’ and Pa’ use to get the games on.  That type.  And do you
>> formally train them?  We do on both accounts, but interested to poll the
>> community on this one.  I have one employee right now that said he’s not
>> afraid of heights but has an alarming number of Unsuccessful jobs because
>> of ‘unsafe tower’s’.  We have since had a talk with him as a couple of
>> those jobs have been successfully done by another employee. Anyway, what
>> say you
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Ben Royer, Operations Manager
>> Royell Communications, Inc.
>> 217-965-3699 <(217)%20965-3699> www.royell.net
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik and Cisco IPSec tunnels

[Dennis Burgess]

My assumption would be you are correct, the only suggestion I can make is to 
hire a consultant that has done this and have them go though everything.



Dennis Burgess - Network Solution Engineer - Consultant
MikroTik Certified 
Trainer/Consultant
 - MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE

For Wireless Hardware/Routers visit www.linktechs.net
Radio Frequency Coverages: www.towercoverage.com
Office: 314-735-0270
E-Mail: dmburg...@linktechs.net

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gawlowski
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:32 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik and Cisco IPSec tunnels

Anybody have experience with this?  We can't seem to establish Phase2 no matter 
what transform set we use.  We have tried flipping the source/destination IP's 
and SA IP's, running without PFS, etc.  We have already looked up example 
configs (Greg Sowell's website) but we are looking for that one setting we 
think is missing.  Any ideas?

Thank you,
Mike

Re: [AFMUG] Sonar

[Lewis Bergman]

Many of them start charging you regardless if you are on their system yet.
Once you sign the contract, you start paying.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Nathan Anderson  wrote:

> ​I can understand this if the product in question is purchased/licensed
> for a one-time upfront fee.  However, if you have a SaaS model with
> recurring revenues, it seems like it would be in your best interest to help
> the customer move existing data over to your product cost-free, and
> thus get them to be a paying customer ASAP.
>
>
> -- Nathan
> --
> *From:* Af  on behalf of Lewis Bergman <
> lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 16, 2017 3:36 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sonar
>
> Yea, this seems to be a common practice in the software industry. What
> they all should really say is that they help you convert. I am going
> through this with ECi at the moment. We paid several thousand for them to
> convert our database. What it really was was a half hearted gesture at
> putting the DB into an excel spreadsheet that they spent zero time checking
> for sanity. They expect us to do all that.
>
> It seems that most software companies expect their customers to have a
> whole team of people doing what seems to be the software companies job. Not
> saying Sonar fits the description, just that that seems to be the rule not
> the exception.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM Sterling Jacobson 
> wrote:
>
>> Taking forever to migrate from Platypus to Sonar.
>>
>> I was told conversion was free, but they didn't tell me I had to do all
>> my own conversion from Plat to Sonar, so in my mind that's not free.
>>
>> I paid Spender Lambert to move some initial data to their format, but
>> I've been on a hold with Sonar since last month.
>>
>> Super excited to get going with a 'modern' billing system, but so far the
>> process has been a total snoozer.
>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] parsing PCN notices

[Tim Hardy]

Steve,

I think Comsearch coordinated your link?  If so, the path is automatically
covered by their protection service for one year at no charge.  Disclaimer
- I am no longer affiliated with Comsearch - officially retired on October
13th.

Tim

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> you crazy script kiddies can always seem to do nifty shit. I have a huge
> email PCN folder, just for 11ghz notices, I assume I add the same amount
> every time we step into another license.
>
> Is there some magic that will parse an imap folder for kmz.kml files. flag
> the ones that dont (the ones you have to follow a link or .. grrr data
> froma pdf) and ad it to a single google earth file?
>
> I have to admit, I do what most probably do and collect them and look at
> the folder occasionally.
>
> we got one from betram whose a state away, i just dont see committing man
> time for all of them being valuable, buying link protection services would
> be cheaper
>

Re: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?

[Jeff Broadwick - Lists]

It think you are conflating two products...the PTP 550 which is the In the core 
product line, and the new ePMP 300 SM which is being sold as a low cost (sub 
$300) link until the new ePMP 3000 AP comes out mid next year.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 12:52 AM, Ryan Ray  wrote:
> 
> Correct, still a wifi product, that's why it comes with the epmp interface 
> apparently. The 450i case is a good addition, still needs to get proven in 
> the field but it all seems real nice. 
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:33 PM, Steve Jones  
>> wrote:
>> not complaining, force 200 is now my goto cheap link if they have a "next 
>> gen" cheap link, im down
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Steve Jones  
>>> wrote:
>>> so its epmp 3000 in ptp? still a "wifi" product though ?
>>> 
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Ryan Ray  wrote:
 It's an AC chipset, it can do non-contiguous channel aggregation, it's 
 CHEAP. Little over $1000 per link. It's weird seeing the epmp interface at 
 wispapalooza on a "PTP" product but that's seems to be the way she goes. 
 I'll be ordering a bunch.
 
 
 
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Steve Jones  
> wrote:
 
> what puts tits on yet another ptp solution with the 550?
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:16 AM, Josh Luthman 
>>  wrote:
> 
>> IDK the ptp550 is pretty sexy.
>> 
>> 
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:05 AM, John Seaman 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Gino, While you didn’t miss out on any earth shattering new product 
>>> announcements, you did miss out on a lot of fun and an overall great 
>>> conference.  VERY sorry you couldn’t attend and we hope to see you next 
>>> year if not sooner!
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:40 AM
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Subject: [AFMUG] Wispapalooza - where's the beef?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> It doesn’t seen that Wispapalooza is the new gear coming out party it 
>>> once was? No new gear announced? Has the industry lost its shine?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Nothing new from Mimosa
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> UBNT just showing just another 5 ghz backhaul
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Cambium with just another backhaul too? And AC Epmp… nothing 
>>> spectacular either
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Where is the new gear in 24 ghz? Multiband backhaul? (5,24,60), more 60 
>>> ghz? SFP ports? 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Gino A. Villarini
>>> 
>>> President
>>> 
>>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
 
>>> 
>> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik and Cisco IPSec tunnels

[Mike Gawlowski]

Nevermind.  We just needed a stronger transform set.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gawlowski
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 10:32 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik and Cisco IPSec tunnels

Anybody have experience with this?  We can't seem to establish Phase2 no matter 
what transform set we use.  We have tried flipping the source/destination IP's 
and SA IP's, running without PFS, etc.  We have already looked up example 
configs (Greg Sowell's website) but we are looking for that one setting we 
think is missing.  Any ideas?

Thank you,
Mike