Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Pros and Cons from burger seem to be pretty biased, but that's not important, your idea of wiki-ing it is good and I suggest we go this way. This whole 'which language to choose' thing is getting on my nerves, and I'm willing to approve anything that gets accepted by the majority. As burger suggested, a poll should be set up and we can vote. I would also suggest it to be put on the forums... even if the users opinion won't change much (because they are users, not devels), if the poll's questions are well chosen and clear, it would allow us to know how many users can become devels and contribute (if many users say, like Madd Matt that they'll help out if it's python, then the 'pros' for python will grow). Also, why choose between python vs. tcl ? isn't there any other language ? for example perl... I wouldn't vote for that one because of its unmaintainbility once the code is bigger than a few lines, but if we are to 'finally' take the time to study which language to use for the core, then we should at least see all the possibilities. It would be interesting to also wiki the language to use for the other modules... I mean, if we have 10 modules, all in C, then why have the core in a different language while it could be in C also... And finally, I would like to say that the only way this is going to work is to stay close to the facts, we all have brains and we're all logical people, if the pros vs. cons give logicals reasons for choosing a specific language, then we should CHOOSE LOGICALLY, NOT EMOTIONALY. I know I wouldn't want to use python for an emotional reason (I don't like it) more than for a logical reason. Trying to see the logic in this, I would say that for now, python vs. Tcl is a 50%-50% thing, or maybe a bit more than 50% for python (but please note, even if you already know it.. that I HATE its syntax :P) that being said.. let the discussion (that I delayed for so long) BEGIN! and let the language choosing research/poll begin! KaKaRoTo On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 11:30:46PM -0400, Madd Matt wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing) - what else? If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we can vote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your
Re: [Amsn-devel] aMSN2 - Second design draft
Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 02:20, schreef Philippe Valembois - Phil:
You get the principle but I would like to do something better than using
callbacks for events... Or at least use an event layer between GUI and proc
that do the things...
I am using the event system in my example:
amsn::handler ${w}_btnOK_click ButtonOKClicked
The amsn::handler command is defined as part of the event system in the draft.
As used here, is binds the proc ButtonOKClicked as a handler for the event.
I think XML2GUI should be a relatively simple thing to do isn't it ?
The hard work is to begin the spec for the XML and after that we could
create a Tk engine to have a base of work...
Phil
Le Sunday 20 August 2006 00:11, Harry Vennik a écrit :
Op zaterdag 19 augustus 2006 23:34, schreef Philippe Valembois - Phil:
But anway, I think you are wrong in saying 'This way, if you want to
create a new window, no need to upgrade GUI modules.' They will need
to be updated to include a command to show the new window, as well as
to handle events from the window when it is shown.
No ! You don't see what I mean... The GUI module will export a function
CreateWindow(string XMLdata)
and when an event will occur it will do a Tcl_exec(fireevent, theevent)
So when we will want to create a new window we will simply create a new
XML data with all widgets we want described in it...
Phil
Yes of course... What I actually meant with the 'command to show the new
window' was the call to the CreateWindow. But anyway, I think I get it
now. What you want to do is implement XML2GUI itself (and the event
pass-through) in C, and all the rest in TCL and XML files.
So from TCL you do something like:
load_resource rsrc my_window.xml
window create w $rsrc ;# Calls CreateWindow at C level
amsn::handler ${w}_btnOK_click ButtonOKClicked
proc ButtonOKClicked { button } {
# do some stuff
}
-
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642
___
Amsn-devel mailing list
Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
-
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642
___
Amsn-devel mailing list
Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
http://amsn.sourceforge.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Programming +Language+Pros+And+Cons Go on and change to your liking, but try to be fair. This means if you put in the wiki: Python is faster to develop, then give a link to a study that says so. Don't put it there if you just think it is faster. Also if somebody else replies with a link to a study that shows TCL or something else is faster, that pro can be removed. (stuff like that is hard to measure anyway, so in my opinion we best leave it out) On Sun, 2006-08-20 at 03:06 -0400, Youness Alaoui wrote: Pros and Cons from burger seem to be pretty biased, but that's not important, your idea of wiki-ing it is good and I suggest we go this way. This whole 'which language to choose' thing is getting on my nerves, and I'm willing to approve anything that gets accepted by the majority. As burger suggested, a poll should be set up and we can vote. I would also suggest it to be put on the forums... even if the users opinion won't change much (because they are users, not devels), if the poll's questions are well chosen and clear, it would allow us to know how many users can become devels and contribute (if many users say, like Madd Matt that they'll help out if it's python, then the 'pros' for python will grow). Also, why choose between python vs. tcl ? isn't there any other language ? for example perl... I wouldn't vote for that one because of its unmaintainbility once the code is bigger than a few lines, but if we are to 'finally' take the time to study which language to use for the core, then we should at least see all the possibilities. It would be interesting to also wiki the language to use for the other modules... I mean, if we have 10 modules, all in C, then why have the core in a different language while it could be in C also... And finally, I would like to say that the only way this is going to work is to stay close to the facts, we all have brains and we're all logical people, if the pros vs. cons give logicals reasons for choosing a specific language, then we should CHOOSE LOGICALLY, NOT EMOTIONALY. I know I wouldn't want to use python for an emotional reason (I don't like it) more than for a logical reason. Trying to see the logic in this, I would say that for now, python vs. Tcl is a 50%-50% thing, or maybe a bit more than 50% for python (but please note, even if you already know it.. that I HATE its syntax :P) that being said.. let the discussion (that I delayed for so long) BEGIN! and let the language choosing research/poll begin! KaKaRoTo On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 11:30:46PM -0400, Madd Matt wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing) - what else? If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we can vote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to
Re: [Amsn-devel] aMSN2 - Second design draft
Who said that the whole project will be in C ??? Only you ! What will be in C/C++ : DBUS bindings and GUI modules for GTK/QT Nothing else... You should look at what I said in my previous mails... And don't worry I already said it in first thread about aMSN2 design : I want all developers to be able to develop on aMSN2... If something will need too much C you can be sure I will yield (I know how boring it is to make all things work Cross Platform) Phil Le Sunday 20 August 2006 03:05, Philippe Khalaf a écrit : On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:51:44 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Youness Alaoui) wrote: This looks like a flame war between python and tcl... and I don't want to start the debate again. You looked offended by my mail, I have no idea why, but in that case, sorry. I'll stop the discussion there as none of us can be convinced of who is right, and noone really knows who is right... This is hopeless... I don't know what to say anymore. The whole project is going to be in C or Glib. Only the core will be in TCL, (and it won't be that large), the whole project is going to take 2 times as long for such a decision... And people will be stuck doing boring bindings instead of coding and learning a new (and much better) language. I will not take this discussion any further. Good luck with aMSN2. Regards, Philippe KKRT On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 04:38:10PM +0200, Ole Andr? Vadla Ravn?s wrote: On 8/19/06, Youness Alaoui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 03:48:06AM +0200, Ole Andr? Vadla Ravn?s wrote: On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:21:15 +0200 Harry Vennik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Finally I found some time to document some of my ideas in more detail. The result is this new draft. Quite a lot changed since the previous one, and it will change again in the next drafts (at least on those places where it just contains some vague suggestions). But I think things already are a lot better and more clear now. Any feedback is appreciated! Harry I've read your draft. It's good and I think can be followed successfully, but there are a few issues. First of all, you don't need to talk to Farsight directly. Telepathy has a stream-engine component that takes care of Farsight. You only need to request StreamedMedia channels and you are good to go. So no bindings required there. Before going to the next point I want to say that I think any proposals to write our own cross-platform toolkit are absurd. That is a HUGE project by itself and involves a ridiculous amount of time to undertake. I am sorry to say that no one in this project has the skill, time or experience to do it. The last serious issue is with the choice of using TCL. TK is getting dumped, so might as well dump TCL. Why? Your proposal involves writing a lot of bindings! Bindings for D-Bus and bindings for wxWindows. These will take a lot of time and energy to complete. Imagine all the time saved working with something that already has those bindings. If you guys want to keep the high level language thing going for aMSN, then we need to think of Python. It has good D-Bus bindings as well as wxWindows bindings. It is better and more popular than TCL. It seems like the logical and correct solution to take. People who don't know it can learn it, new developers who already know it will be interested/join, and those who are unable to learn it can still work on aMSN1. Added avantage is easy porting to another toolkit. If someone decides he wants a GTK+ aMSN2, he can fork the Python core and write his own UI. I agree wholeheartedly with all the points raised by Philippe. I would just like to add that I've got experience with the wxWidgets python bindings, and they're great. I can say the same about the dbus and gstreamer bindings as well. And please believe me, you do not want to write dbus nor wxWidgets (or any other UI toolkit) bindings from scratch just to get started. It's rather obvious why wrapping a whole UI toolkit is a lot of work, but probably not as obvious for the dbus bindings. Telepathy makes extensive use of recursive types and really push the existing bindings to their limits, and getting all of this right while at the same time writing everything from scratch is more work than I'm sure anyone on this project is willing and able to devote to it (after all it's not where the fun is). who needs bindings to wxWidgets ? who needs bindings to Telepathy or gstreamer or
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
I just remember something about Python... When you were all thinking only about Tcl/Tk, my father already used Python (I studied it a little too) and it was a hell to have a good graphic interface... And guess what ? What was the only GUI binding for Python ? TK !! Yes you have well read... And what I thought the first time I saw that it's ugly :p... After that there was tix based on TK to add others widgets and the last thing my father tried for GUI was PyQT... I remember he had many difficulties to install all of that... And I remember I wasn't able to understand why there was so much things to do to have only a little window to display... Maybe it has changed, I don't know... Another point is Doc... I never managed to find easily something in Python docs : their organization is so bloated... Who can find for me (without using Google) how you access files with the built-in functions ? Phil PS I don't put all these points in the wiki because I am not sure they are actual and enough objective... Le Sunday 20 August 2006 11:46, Sander Hoentjen a écrit : http://amsn.sourceforge.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Programming +Language+Pros+And+Cons Go on and change to your liking, but try to be fair. This means if you put in the wiki: Python is faster to develop, then give a link to a study that says so. Don't put it there if you just think it is faster. Also if somebody else replies with a link to a study that shows TCL or something else is faster, that pro can be removed. (stuff like that is hard to measure anyway, so in my opinion we best leave it out) On Sun, 2006-08-20 at 03:06 -0400, Youness Alaoui wrote: Pros and Cons from burger seem to be pretty biased, but that's not important, your idea of wiki-ing it is good and I suggest we go this way. This whole 'which language to choose' thing is getting on my nerves, and I'm willing to approve anything that gets accepted by the majority. As burger suggested, a poll should be set up and we can vote. I would also suggest it to be put on the forums... even if the users opinion won't change much (because they are users, not devels), if the poll's questions are well chosen and clear, it would allow us to know how many users can become devels and contribute (if many users say, like Madd Matt that they'll help out if it's python, then the 'pros' for python will grow). Also, why choose between python vs. tcl ? isn't there any other language ? for example perl... I wouldn't vote for that one because of its unmaintainbility once the code is bigger than a few lines, but if we are to 'finally' take the time to study which language to use for the core, then we should at least see all the possibilities. It would be interesting to also wiki the language to use for the other modules... I mean, if we have 10 modules, all in C, then why have the core in a different language while it could be in C also... And finally, I would like to say that the only way this is going to work is to stay close to the facts, we all have brains and we're all logical people, if the pros vs. cons give logicals reasons for choosing a specific language, then we should CHOOSE LOGICALLY, NOT EMOTIONALY. I know I wouldn't want to use python for an emotional reason (I don't like it) more than for a logical reason. Trying to see the logic in this, I would say that for now, python vs. Tcl is a 50%-50% thing, or maybe a bit more than 50% for python (but please note, even if you already know it.. that I HATE its syntax :P) that being said.. let the discussion (that I delayed for so long) BEGIN! and let the language choosing research/poll begin! KaKaRoTo On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 11:30:46PM -0400, Madd Matt wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 12:33, schreef Philippe Valembois - Phil: I just remember something about Python... When you were all thinking only about Tcl/Tk, my father already used Python (I studied it a little too) and it was a hell to have a good graphic interface... And guess what ? What was the only GUI binding for Python ? TK !! There is WxPython and PyGTK now, so your info is indeed outdated. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
I like the idea to move from TCL to Python, i really do hate TCL in many ways. Python that even is a highlevel language is much faster and more relaible than TCL. I think this migration will only make aMSN better, and indeed if you drop TCL you will get more hackers. Iam not the only one hating TCL ^^On 8/20/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi,I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now.-- TCL PROS in aMSN2 --- No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason)- If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to helpout)- We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how muchcode we really can reuse in new design)- cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 --- Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw)- old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to captureyoung and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages)- In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, nocompilation), is long gone.-- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 --- new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project)- opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better- all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed- faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language- cross-platform-- TCL CONS in aMSN2 --- Wierd indentation (very bad reason)- Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing)- what else?If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we canvote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology?Regards,Philippe- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easierDownload IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Amsn-devel mailing listAmsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Sander also put Ruby into that Wiki page. I did not know Ruby (heard the name before, but did not know what it is like), and have been browsing around for some time now to get info about it, and I think it is most worth considering. Thanks Sander for pointing it out! Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 11:46, schreef Sander Hoentjen: http://amsn.sourceforge.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Programming +Language+Pros+And+Cons Go on and change to your liking, but try to be fair. This means if you put in the wiki: Python is faster to develop, then give a link to a study that says so. Don't put it there if you just think it is faster. Also if somebody else replies with a link to a study that shows TCL or something else is faster, that pro can be removed. (stuff like that is hard to measure anyway, so in my opinion we best leave it out) On Sun, 2006-08-20 at 03:06 -0400, Youness Alaoui wrote: Pros and Cons from burger seem to be pretty biased, but that's not important, your idea of wiki-ing it is good and I suggest we go this way. This whole 'which language to choose' thing is getting on my nerves, and I'm willing to approve anything that gets accepted by the majority. As burger suggested, a poll should be set up and we can vote. I would also suggest it to be put on the forums... even if the users opinion won't change much (because they are users, not devels), if the poll's questions are well chosen and clear, it would allow us to know how many users can become devels and contribute (if many users say, like Madd Matt that they'll help out if it's python, then the 'pros' for python will grow). Also, why choose between python vs. tcl ? isn't there any other language ? for example perl... I wouldn't vote for that one because of its unmaintainbility once the code is bigger than a few lines, but if we are to 'finally' take the time to study which language to use for the core, then we should at least see all the possibilities. It would be interesting to also wiki the language to use for the other modules... I mean, if we have 10 modules, all in C, then why have the core in a different language while it could be in C also... And finally, I would like to say that the only way this is going to work is to stay close to the facts, we all have brains and we're all logical people, if the pros vs. cons give logicals reasons for choosing a specific language, then we should CHOOSE LOGICALLY, NOT EMOTIONALY. I know I wouldn't want to use python for an emotional reason (I don't like it) more than for a logical reason. Trying to see the logic in this, I would say that for now, python vs. Tcl is a 50%-50% thing, or maybe a bit more than 50% for python (but please note, even if you already know it.. that I HATE its syntax :P) that being said.. let the discussion (that I delayed for so long) BEGIN! and let the language choosing research/poll begin! KaKaRoTo On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 11:30:46PM -0400, Madd Matt wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily
Re: [Amsn-devel] aMSN2 - Second design draft
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:13:14 +0200 Philippe Valembois - Phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who said that the whole project will be in C ??? Only you ! What will be in C/C++ : DBUS bindings and GUI modules for GTK/QT And the protocol backend (libmsn), and the connection manager for MSN. That means everything except the core. Harry? Did I misunderstand your design plans? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki. Regards, Philippe Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing) - what else? If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we can vote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 18:05, schreef Philippe Khalaf: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki. But still it is a reason for at least two aMSN team members (Youness and me) to dislike Python. For me, I may get USED TO it, but I'm very sure I'll never LIKE it! Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
On 8/20/06, Harry Vennik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 18:05, schreef Philippe Khalaf: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast.I wouldn't list it as a big con.You get very readable code as a result as well.Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki.But still it is a reason for at least two aMSN team members (Youness and me) to dislike Python.For me, I may get USED TO it, but I'm very sure I'll never LIKE it!I think you'll enjoy this article:http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882 Before actually touching the language myself I was disgusted by the very same thing, and it seems most people are, until they've tried it. :-)Regards,Ole André Regards, Philippe-Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimohttp://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___Amsn-devel mailing listAmsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Hi, - faster development than TCL or most any other languages Any motivation for that? http://edok01.tib.uni-hannover.de/edoks/e001/327614196.pdf This is a phd thesis, from this document we can see that: - Python is faster than TCL (figure 1, 2, 4, 6) - Python uses less memory (figure 8) - Python has less code for doing the same thing than TCL (figure 10) - Python takes less total time for development (figure 15) I will let you explore the conclusion and graphs in there. Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:18:11 +0200 Harry Vennik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 18:05, schreef Philippe Khalaf: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki. But still it is a reason for at least two aMSN team members (Youness and me) to dislike Python. For me, I may get USED TO it, but I'm very sure I'll never LIKE it! As Youness mentioned previously, we need to stay objective and not put personal reasons into this. It might affect your vote but no need to have it in the wiki. Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] aMSN2 - Second design draft
Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 18:00, schreef Philippe Khalaf: On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:13:14 +0200 Philippe Valembois - Phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who said that the whole project will be in C ??? Only you ! What will be in C/C++ : DBUS bindings and GUI modules for GTK/QT And the protocol backend (libmsn), and the connection manager for MSN. That means everything except the core. Harry? Did I misunderstand your design plans? I have the impression (from earlier mails too) that Phil tends to regard the libmsn / connection manager stuff as something separate (makes some sense, because it runs separately, and is not even required to run aMSN2, as long as a replacement like Telepathy-MSN is available). Still he misses the extended Tcl runtime, but that is only a small amount of code. So, for aMSN2 itself we end up with the DBUS bindings and the extended Tcl runtime being in C, as well as some GUI stuff (how much code that would be is still highly unpredictable). Additionally there is indeed the connection manager and the underlying libmsn being implemented in C. To sum it up: in the case that we use Tcl, there will need be quite some C code, you are right from that point of view, but on the other hand, you seem to underestimate the amount of Tcl code needed to implement the core modules. Harry Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
[Amsn-devel] Download Bar
Hi allSorry to disturb you with little bugs but is it possible to have a look to the progress bar ? The percent become -3%, -5% when it's a big file after 4-5 minutes of download/upload... and there is something else : when you abort a download in the window of download, we always can clic on abort in the chatboxLast thing : sometimes (I can't say when) we have to resize the chatbox because the textbox simply disappear... Sorry for my englishThanks all :)-- [ Lord Zak ] - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
[Amsn-devel] Autopackage error
Just thought i'd let you know it seems to be some problem when installing the latest Amsn autopackage on Mandriva 2006. Autopackage says it cannot be installed because the system is missing GLIBC_2.4, and that this error probably means the package wasn't built correctly with apbuild. Cheers, J.V. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
[Amsn-devel] amsn webcam issue
Hello i was having an error on a windows machine saying that i was behind a firewall or a router.. and i actually was, the router was using NAT. I couldnt send or receive webcam, but the problem was not my router it was actually that the windows computers time was wrong.. a few years wrong.. so i just wanted to tell you that that is another reason why amsn webcam wont work, so that you can put it on the wiki.Thank you all for your work.. amsn is great.Martin AmaranteWith MSN Spaces email straight to your blog. Upload jokes, photos and more. It's free! It's free! - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
I guess many open-source code is written in python and ruby, so if someone could find a link to an open-source project using that and give only the direct link to a source file (like http://svn.sf.net/svnroot/whatever/checkout.php?file=whatever.pyrev=HEAD) so we can take a look at a real life example of the code.. this will allow us to see how clean the code can be (depends on the project though), how easy to read and understand for newbies and how maintainable it is (example of perl code which is a powerfull language but code becomes easily unmaintainable)... This is not a measurable thing so everyone might have different conclusions looking at those samples, but it's still something that might be good to add (not as a pro, not as a con)... p.s.: Thanks a lot Sander for setting it up on the wiki KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 02:05:55PM +0200, Harry Vennik wrote: Sander also put Ruby into that Wiki page. I did not know Ruby (heard the name before, but did not know what it is like), and have been browsing around for some time now to get info about it, and I think it is most worth considering. Thanks Sander for pointing it out! Op zondag 20 augustus 2006 11:46, schreef Sander Hoentjen: http://amsn.sourceforge.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Programming +Language+Pros+And+Cons Go on and change to your liking, but try to be fair. This means if you put in the wiki: Python is faster to develop, then give a link to a study that says so. Don't put it there if you just think it is faster. Also if somebody else replies with a link to a study that shows TCL or something else is faster, that pro can be removed. (stuff like that is hard to measure anyway, so in my opinion we best leave it out) On Sun, 2006-08-20 at 03:06 -0400, Youness Alaoui wrote: Pros and Cons from burger seem to be pretty biased, but that's not important, your idea of wiki-ing it is good and I suggest we go this way. This whole 'which language to choose' thing is getting on my nerves, and I'm willing to approve anything that gets accepted by the majority. As burger suggested, a poll should be set up and we can vote. I would also suggest it to be put on the forums... even if the users opinion won't change much (because they are users, not devels), if the poll's questions are well chosen and clear, it would allow us to know how many users can become devels and contribute (if many users say, like Madd Matt that they'll help out if it's python, then the 'pros' for python will grow). Also, why choose between python vs. tcl ? isn't there any other language ? for example perl... I wouldn't vote for that one because of its unmaintainbility once the code is bigger than a few lines, but if we are to 'finally' take the time to study which language to use for the core, then we should at least see all the possibilities. It would be interesting to also wiki the language to use for the other modules... I mean, if we have 10 modules, all in C, then why have the core in a different language while it could be in C also... And finally, I would like to say that the only way this is going to work is to stay close to the facts, we all have brains and we're all logical people, if the pros vs. cons give logicals reasons for choosing a specific language, then we should CHOOSE LOGICALLY, NOT EMOTIONALY. I know I wouldn't want to use python for an emotional reason (I don't like it) more than for a logical reason. Trying to see the logic in this, I would say that for now, python vs. Tcl is a 50%-50% thing, or maybe a bit more than 50% for python (but please note, even if you already know it.. that I HATE its syntax :P) that being said.. let the discussion (that I delayed for so long) BEGIN! and let the language choosing research/poll begin! KaKaRoTo On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 11:30:46PM -0400, Madd Matt wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Make fun of me BASTARD :@ :p j/k Yeah, I know, I'm stubborn and I either 'like it' or not.. and idnentation as part of the syntax.. I don't like.. I do have a small experience with it, with maybe the only other language which considers spaces as being part of the syntax... COBOL :p and I don't like that! KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 12:05:33PM -0400, Philippe Khalaf wrote: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki. Regards, Philippe Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing) - what else? If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we can vote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Amsn-devel] Download Bar
Hi, Thanks for reporting.. but I think the forums are more suitable for such bug reports... http://amsn.sf.net/forums On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 07:58:08PM +0200, Lord Zak wrote: Hi all Sorry to disturb you with little bugs but is it possible to have a look to the progress bar ? The percent become -3%, -5% when it's a big file after 4-5 minutes of download/upload... Yes, I noticed too, but I have no idea why it happens... maybe it will be investigated sometime... and there is something else : when you abort a download in the window of download, we always can clic on abort in the chatbox yeah.. but too minor a bug to waste time on it... Last thing : sometimes (I can't say when) we have to resize the chatbox because the textbox simply disappear... Yep, this happens in tabbed windows, when you resize the window to a smaller size, the sash (the one between the output and input texts) get resized for the current tab and not for the other tabs, if you resize the window a little bit, then it gets fixed... Sorry for my english looks good! KaKaRoTo Thanks all :) -- [ Lord Zak ] - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] Autopackage error
The package was not built with apbuild at all... the next release should have a fully compatible autopackage (works on any machine with any libc, libstdc++ glibc...) probably it will be for RC2 or 0.97... which reminds me... KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 03:24:01PM -0300, Joao Victor wrote: Just thought i'd let you know it seems to be some problem when installing the latest Amsn autopackage on Mandriva 2006. Autopackage says it cannot be installed because the system is missing GLIBC_2.4, and that this error probably means the package wasn't built correctly with apbuild. Cheers, J.V. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] amsn webcam issue
Hi, Thanks for telling us... maybe you should have used the forums (http://amsn.sf.net/forums) but this is weird... I see no reason at all why the time would affect in any way the webcam feed... can you reproduce it ? if yes, can you send me directly the status log of when it happens ? (ctrl-S -save to file) Thanks KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 06:53:16PM +, martin ... wrote: Hello i was having an error on a windows machine saying that i was behind a firewall or a router.. and i actually was, the router was using NAT. I couldnt send or receive webcam, but the problem was not my router it was actually that the windows computers time was wrong.. a few years wrong.. so i just wanted to tell you that that is another reason why amsn webcam wont work, so that you can put it on the wiki.Thank you all for your work.. amsn is great.Martin Amarante _ Try Live.com: where your online world comes together - with news, sports, weather, and much more. http://www.live.com/getstarted - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:28:43 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Youness Alaoui) wrote: Make fun of me BASTARD :@ :p j/k Yeah, I know, I'm stubborn and I either 'like it' or not.. and idnentation as part of the syntax.. I don't like.. I do have a small experience with it, with maybe the only other language which considers spaces as being part of the syntax... COBOL :p and I don't like that! Go skim over the article ole gave : http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882 E.R. had the same impression as you at first but as you see the rest was very positive. Regards, Philippe KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 12:05:33PM -0400, Philippe Khalaf wrote: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki. Regards, Philippe Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing) - what else? If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we can vote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:41:22 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Youness Alaoui) wrote: Ok, is there any 'python like' language which allows for a 'normal' syntax? :P hehe, anyways, as I said in my previous mail, we should compare with other languages too, and as I said, since almost all modules (or was it 'all' modules?) will be in C, why use a non-C layer in between, why not use C ? And don't say that you don't want C because noone knows C and blablabla.. because noone knows python either, if we are to learn a new language (like python for example), then why not learn C (+ it will allow 'C' devels or new C devels to work on all modules, not only the Tcl/python/ruby/.. module) I personally love C and Glib, but it has a much steeper learning curve than python will ever have. We definitely need Glib for OO and Dbus bindings, so that also adds a lot to the learning curve. It is also harder to write quality C/GLib code when you are just learning (think memory management and GObjects). So I think it's not such a good option in this case. Also, python allows for much faster development on the stuff that actually matters and less time wasted on other language specific things. Also add Java, I think Java is just splendid BUT is limited in many things (being 100% cross platform means that for anything specific we need JNI and write our extensions) AND require a HUGE virtual machine... (and no.. speed is not an argument because as long as the GUI is not awk/swing (a console program), then Java is even faster than C code in SOME cases, but mostly it is equal to C in speed for anything) Splendid? :P damn man :) But in this case I don't believe performance is a very important issue. I personally like and mostly don't like java. In any case it could be a candidate, I'm not sure about how good or bad the D-Bus bindings are but they are probably good. Nonetheless I am somehow more inclined towards a high level language for aMSN's core, as I feel it does not really require us to go any lower. We want to spend more time on functionality than anything else, and we can do that best with higher level languages. That is what has allowed aMSN to always have functionality and options faster than other messengers. Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
Re: [Amsn-devel] TCL or Python in aMSN2 (Pros and Cons)
Yeah, don't worry, I read it already... it's a quite interesting article.. I then looked at a python code I had (the ISF decompressor from Ole) and after installing the python-mode for emacs (haha! no flame war please vi users :P) I found it 'acceptable'.. I still don't like it, and for sure, without a proper editor, it becomes difficult to read/write the code (without syntax highliting it's difficult (for a n00b) to easily see where a proc starts or ends...) but I think it's manageable... if the pros go for python, I'm willing to learn it and start working with it. Any quick info on python ? need for an interpreter ? can it be compiled (native code) ? can it be pre-compiled (bytecode that still needs an interpreter) ? or only interpreted (like tcl)... only one thing to install or python to install + other stuff ? any easy way to install bindings (like cpan for perl) ? etc... that kind of info would be usefull. thanks, KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 10:46:20PM -0400, Philippe Khalaf wrote: On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:28:43 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Youness Alaoui) wrote: Make fun of me BASTARD :@ :p j/k Yeah, I know, I'm stubborn and I either 'like it' or not.. and idnentation as part of the syntax.. I don't like.. I do have a small experience with it, with maybe the only other language which considers spaces as being part of the syntax... COBOL :p and I don't like that! Go skim over the article ole gave : http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882 E.R. had the same impression as you at first but as you see the rest was very positive. Regards, Philippe KKRT On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 12:05:33PM -0400, Philippe Khalaf wrote: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:30:46 -0400 Madd Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mean python cons where you say TCL cons at one point. Having learned python, you get used to the indentation very fast. I wouldn't list it as a big con. You get very readable code as a result as well. Its debatable. Actually I put the indentation in there ironically to make fun of Youness. I'll remove it from the wiki. Regards, Philippe Another Pro is I can do more than sit on the sidelines and listen to this mailing list with python. I was about to start writing my own python msn client, but I'll help this one instead if that language is picked. On 8/19/06, Philippe Khalaf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I reread all posts about this, and here is what I got : Quick summary of what was said until now. -- TCL PROS in aMSN2 -- - No need for anyone to learn any new language (good bad reason) - If people learn a new language, the intial code will probably be crap (good reason, but it might also bring in new experienced devs to help out) - We *might* be able to reuse code (good reason, but not sure how much code we really can reuse in new design) - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Bindings hell (this might just be a complete project killer btw) - old, outdated, unpopular language (this means it's harder to capture young and bright hackers who are interested in better and more popular languages) - In aMSN2, the main advantage of using TCL/TK (cross platform, no compilation), is long gone. -- PYTHON PROS in aMSN2 -- - new popular and active language (this means many more hackers will probably join the project) - opportunity to expand our skills and learn something new and better - all required bindings are available, maintained and distributed - faster development than TCL or most any other languages - object oriented language - cross-platform -- TCL CONS in aMSN2 -- - Wierd indentation (very bad reason) - Must learn new language (not necessarily a bad thing) - what else? If someone would please put this up on the wiki and then anyone who has any new PROs and CONS can add it. Once we feel it is complete we can vote. Anyone has any objections to this methodology? Regards, Philippe - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support
