Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Mark, This was discussed here a couple of months ago. It saves you $75 every two years that would be used to register your Class2 with CASA and you have to put up with the limitations. Otherwise it is useless as if you can make the declaration and have your GP pass you as fit a DAME would pass you for a Class 2 anyway as the standard is exactly the same. The bloke here a couple of months ago was having trouble with CASA because of a past condition and he wouldn't be able to make the declaration so would need to go to a DAME anyway. Catch 22. Mike At 02:22 PM 14/10/2013, you wrote: This is increasingly academic given that CASA have already decided to remove the requirement for class-2 medicals for private flight, with limitations. http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_100908http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_100908 The scheme should be live at the end of this year, and applies to all holders of SPL, PPL and CPL licenses. You'll need to ask your doctor to assess your medical fitness to the standard documented in the Austroads publication Assessing Fitness to Drive for Commercial and Private Vehicle Drivers, with CASA amendments. Any GP can do it, and most of them should be across the requirements. Send the doctor's certification to CASA and you're done, no mess, no fuss. When flying under the drivers license medical standard, CASA imposes these restrictions: - Private operations only - Single engine - 1500kg MTOW - No more than one passenger - No aerobatics - Not above 10,000' AMSL - Day VFR. That encompasses the vast bulk of gliding activities. I'd strongly suggest that in the event that GFA's requirements for visiting overseas pilots are more stringent than CASA's, it'll be incumbent on GFA to change them accordingly. - mark On Oct 14, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Texler, Michael mailto:michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.aumichael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au wrote: Thanks Mike and Carol, That's Gold, OK, bring it on. Implement it and see what happens! Unless I have completely mis read it again, an initially medical issuance would still be required (i.e. Driver's licence initial issue requires a medical and this is used in lieu)? Then attendance and sign of for medical self awareness courses and using self report for restricted operations (i.e. single engine, one pax max etc..)? Michael ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
A friend here waited 4months for his class 2 to be sorted out as DAME made minor very obvious error on line. In desperation he sent a letter to John McCormick and signed the letter Dr NKS former Senator, Parliament of Australia. It then took 4 days for Avmed section to reply and issue his class2 finally. Avmed claim they are overworked!! thus they ignore letters, emails, faxes and phone calls hoping you will give up. Another friend just gave up on Avmed and no longer fly his Lancair. Ian m On 14/10/2013 5:08 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Mark, This was discussed here a couple of months ago. It saves you $75 every two years that would be used to register your Class2 with CASA and you have to put up with the limitations. Otherwise it is useless as if you can make the declaration and have your GP pass you as fit a DAME would pass you for a Class 2 anyway as the standard is exactly the same. The bloke here a couple of months ago was having trouble with CASA because of a past condition and he wouldn't be able to make the declaration so would need to go to a DAME anyway. Catch 22. Mike At 02:22 PM 14/10/2013, you wrote: This is increasingly academic given that CASA have already decided to remove the requirement for class-2 medicals for private flight, with limitations. http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_100908 The scheme should be live at the end of this year, and applies to all holders of SPL, PPL and CPL licenses. You'll need to ask your doctor to assess your medical fitness to the standard documented in the Austroads publication Assessing Fitness to Drive for Commercial and Private Vehicle Drivers, with CASA amendments. Any GP can do it, and most of them should be across the requirements. Send the doctor's certification to CASA and you're done, no mess, no fuss. When flying under the drivers license medical standard, CASA imposes these restrictions: - Private operations only - Single engine - 1500kg MTOW - No more than one passenger - No aerobatics - Not above 10,000' AMSL - Day VFR. That encompasses the vast bulk of gliding activities. I'd strongly suggest that in the event that GFA's requirements for visiting overseas pilots are more stringent than CASA's, it'll be incumbent on GFA to change them accordingly. - mark On Oct 14, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Texler, Michael michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au wrote: Thanks Mike and Carol, That’s Gold, OK, bring it on. Implement it and see what happens! Unless I have completely mis read it again, an initially medical issuance would still be required (i.e. Driver’s licence initial issue requires a medical and this is used in lieu)? Then attendance and sign of for medical self awareness courses and using self report for restricted operations (i.e. single engine, one pax max etc..)? Michael ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ** ** *Borgelt Instruments* - *design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784** **overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784** **: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Methinks there is some false logic in that argument. A counter argument is that the aviation medical system has kept people out of the skies that shouldn't be flying due to medical reasons . (that is, the medicals are filtering out those who are unfit to fly and hence that the cause of incidents due to medical causes is low, 5 out of 800 = 0.625%). Saying that 1% is different to 0.5% is meaningless without confidence intervals, and suffers from the problem of rare events being compared. If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do the medical causes would be higher. Regards Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net on behalf of Mike Borgelt Sent: Fri 10/11/2013 4:10 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component which would seem to be in accordance with the US experience. Of those, again IIRC, one was a medical condition that wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had PPLs and one was a serving military officer who had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. Even CASA recognised this in writing in a discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the same medical standard as a State driver's Licence (very little, looking at what drives). They specifically said some in the aviation industry might be uncomfortable with this but that the stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian aviation which has a long history of such. Mike At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07 Hi All, To self declare is hardly onerous. If you have any of the conditions that make you ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of aviation medicals and whether they have really made the skies safer, using the argument that medicals are costly and someone knows somebody that had a medically incapacitating event just after they had passed their medical etc.. Would the same argument work regarding glider maintenance, saying that form 2 are not worthwhile because there have been instances where gliders have come to grief after passing their form 2 etc. Doctor's hat on Michael == Dr. Michael Texler M.B. B.S. M.D.(Adel) F.R.C.P.A. Consultant Anatomical Pathologist c/- Department of Histopathology, PathWest, B Block, Level 5, Fremantle Hospital, Alma Sreet, Fremantle 6160, WA, Australia Ph: +61 (0)8 9431 2681 Email: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 14:52 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe mailto:ctho...@bigpond.comctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilot's Licence. Christopher Thorpe From: mailto:aus
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Nice conjecture, but unfortunately for you the BGA DIDN'T have a formal medical requirement at the time so there was no filtering by formal medical. Same for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain, are likely pretty good. In any case it is quite obvious that medical causes are a VERY low percentage of aviation accident causes (~ 1% or lower) and the accident rate isn't significantly improved by having formal medicals and simply cannot be not matter how stringent you make them. Everyone self certifies before going flying anyway as most don't have a medical immediately before going flying on any given day. I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. That and your demonstrated lack of ability to think logically even when not under the pressure of actually flying an aircraft are a worry. I wouldn't fly with you nor let anyone I cared about do so. Mike At 12:26 AM 14/10/2013, you wrote: Methinks there is some false logic in that argument. A counter argument is that the aviation medical system has kept people out of the skies that shouldn't be flying due to medical reasons . (that is, the medicals are filtering out those who are unfit to fly and hence that the cause of incidents due to medical causes is low, 5 out of 800 = 0.625%). Saying that 1% is different to 0.5% is meaningless without confidence intervals, and suffers from the problem of rare events being compared. If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do the medical causes would be higher. Regards Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net on behalf of Mike Borgelt Sent: Fri 10/11/2013 4:10 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component which would seem to be in accordance with the US experience. Of those, again IIRC, one was a medical condition that wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had PPLs and one was a serving military officer who had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. Even CASA recognised this in writing in a discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the same medical standard as a State driver's Licence (very little, looking at what drives). They specifically said some in the aviation industry might be uncomfortable with this but that the stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian aviation which has a long history of such. Mike At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07 Hi All, To self declare is hardly onerous. If you have any of the conditions that make you ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of aviation medicals and whether they have really made the skies safer, using the argument that medicals are costly and someone knows somebody that had a medically incapacitating event just after they had passed their medical etc.. Would the same argument work regarding glider maintenance, saying that form 2 are not worthwhile because there have been instances where gliders have come to grief after passing their form 2 etc. Doctor's hat on Michael == Dr. Michael Texler M.B. B.S. M.D.(Adel) F.R.C.P.A. Consultant Anatomical Pathologist c/- Department of Histopathology, PathWest, B Block, Level 5, Fremantle Hospital, Alma Sreet, Fremantle 6160, WA, Australia Ph: +61 (0)8 9431 2681 Email: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 14:52 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
[ Simon pops up and makes a rare comment ] Mike, I'm sure you mean well, but attacking the person rather than the issue isn't good form - on any mailing list. Debates of this sort work much better without ad hominem attacks. They can often lead to impugning people who seriously are not deserving of it. I know Michael T and he absolutely isn't deserving of that attack in any sense (then again, neither is anyone else). Attack the issue, by all means - with both claws, mate. But not the people. Please. Thanks, Simon [ Simon now returns to quietly lurking - having not done nearly enough gliding of late, due to his brain being consumed of late with working on an IFR rating ] On 14/10/2013, at 8:19 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Nice conjecture, but unfortunately for you the BGA DIDN'T have a formal medical requirement at the time so there was no filtering by formal medical. Same for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain, are likely pretty good. In any case it is quite obvious that medical causes are a VERY low percentage of aviation accident causes (~ 1% or lower) and the accident rate isn't significantly improved by having formal medicals and simply cannot be not matter how stringent you make them. Everyone self certifies before going flying anyway as most don't have a medical immediately before going flying on any given day. I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. That and your demonstrated lack of ability to think logically even when not under the pressure of actually flying an aircraft are a worry. I wouldn't fly with you nor let anyone I cared about do so. Mike At 12:26 AM 14/10/2013, you wrote: Methinks there is some false logic in that argument. A counter argument is that the aviation medical system has kept people out of the skies that shouldn't be flying due to medical reasons . (that is, the medicals are filtering out those who are unfit to fly and hence that the cause of incidents due to medical causes is low, 5 out of 800 = 0.625%). Saying that 1% is different to 0.5% is meaningless without confidence intervals, and suffers from the problem of rare events being compared. If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do the medical causes would be higher. Regards Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net on behalf of Mike Borgelt Sent: Fri 10/11/2013 4:10 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component which would seem to be in accordance with the US experience. Of those, again IIRC, one was a medical condition that wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had PPLs and one was a serving military officer who had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. Even CASA recognised this in writing in a discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the same medical standard as a State driver's Licence (very little, looking at what drives). They specifically said some in the aviation industry might be uncomfortable with this but that the stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian aviation which has a long history of such. Mike At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07 Hi All, To self declare is hardly onerous. If you have any of the conditions that make you ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of aviation medicals and whether they have really made the skies safer, using the argument that medicals are costly and someone knows somebody that had a medically incapacitating event just after they had passed
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
OK I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. Mike Borgelt stated. One study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. Your point being that self reporting medical accident rate is 0.5% versus 1% for powered a/c pilots? Same for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain are likely pretty good. Before you attack me personally please provide some links to creditable data with regards to the stats and confidence intervals. 'Likely pretty good' would not get accepted in a published report! winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Well said! Tom - Original Message - From: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. To:Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: Sent:Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:31:59 +1030 Subject:Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals [ Simon pops up and makes a rare comment ] Mike, I'm sure you mean well, but attacking the person rather than the issue isn't good form - on any mailing list. Debates of this sort work much better without ad hominem attacks. They can often lead to impugning people who seriously are not deserving of it. I know Michael T and he absolutely isn't deserving of that attack in any sense (then again, neither is anyone else). Attack the issue, by all means - with both claws, mate. But not the people. Please. Thanks, Simon [ Simon now returns to quietly lurking - having not done nearly enough gliding of late, due to his brain being consumed of late with working on an IFR rating ] On 14/10/2013, at 8:19 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: Nice conjecture, but unfortunately for you the BGA DIDN'T have a formal medical requirement at the time so there was no filtering by formal medical. Same for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain, are likely pretty good. In any case it is quite obvious that medical causes are a VERY low percentage of aviation accident causes (~ 1% or lower) and the accident rate isn't significantly improved by having formal medicals and simply cannot be not matter how stringent you make them Everyone self certifies before going flying anyway as most don't have a medical immediately before going flying on any given day. I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. That and your demonstrated lack of ability to think logically even when not under the pressure of actually flying an aircraft are a worry. I wouldn't fly with you nor let anyone I cared about do so. Mike At 12:26 AM 14/10/2013, you wrote: Methinks there is some false logic in that argument. A counter argument is that the aviation medical system has kept people out of the skies that shouldn't be flying due to medical reasons . (that is, the medicals are filtering out those who are unfit to fly and hence that the cause of incidents due to medical causes is low, 5 out of 800 = 0.625%). Saying that 1% is different to 0.5% is meaningless without confidence intervals, and suffers from the problem of rare events being compared. If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do the medical causes would be higher. Regards Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [2] on behalf of Mike Borgelt Sent: Fri 10/11/2013 4:10 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component which would seem to be in accordance with the US experience. Of those, again IIRC, one was a medical condition that wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had PPLs and one was a serving military officer who had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. Even CASA recognised this in writing in a discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the same medical standard as a State driver's Licence (very little, looking at what drives). They specifically said some in the aviation industry might be uncomfortable with this but that the stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian aviation which has a long history of such. Mike At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07 Hi All, To self declare is hardly onerous. If you have any of the conditions that make you ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of aviation medicals and whether they have really made the skies
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
At 09:45 AM 14/10/2013, you wrote: OK I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. Mike Borgelt stated. One study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. Your point being that self reporting medical accident rate is 0.5% versus 1% for powered a/c pilots? Yes, surprising isn't it? IIRC the people who did the study didn't expect that either. They didn't claim that this was significant and neither do I. What both the authors and I claim is that the medical causes of aviation accidents are such a small percentage of all causes that eliminating them won't achieve anything significant in the way of safety. Of course making the medicals more stringent may well appear to make things safer in absolute numbers of accidents as you'll simply eliminate lots of pilots and flying hours. Same for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain are likely pretty good. Before you attack me personally please provide some links to creditable data with regards to the stats and confidence intervals. 'Likely pretty good' would not get accepted in a published report! The only person making evidence free assertions is you. If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do (sic) the medical causes would be higher. Where are your links to show that formal aviation medicals have any value? As I said I don't have the URL to hand for that study and frankly I can't be bothered looking it up for you. It was over a considerable period of years and thousands of aircraft, glider and balloon accidents. IIRC it was linked as a result of a discussion on the old AUFCHAT group about 7 or 8 years ago. It may have been a post by Boyd Munro as he used to post there sometimes. It is probably on one of my PCs. Who knows if the webpage still exists? The BGA study was from the 1970-75 period in Sailplane and Gliding and was a response to the usual periodical attempt by the bureaucracy to bring things into line . The bureaucrats retreated that time as the BGA had shown that the benefits of requiring formal medicals were negligible while the costs were considerable. You can look up the back issues somewhere I guess. The CASA discussion paper from 2002 probably still exists in the depths of the CASA database. Ask them. The US EAA and AOPA are currently petitioning the FAA for effective elimination of the 3rd Class medical for day VFR simple aircraft, only one other person in the aircraft. here: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2012/March/20/AOPA-EAA-file-medical-exemption-petition Do your own Google search and you'll find many posts on this topic. This has been done to death numerous times and I'm not aware that anyone has ever shown that formal aviation medicals have any safety value. Unfortunately the people proposing the elimination of medicals do their homework, put together the case, get the bureaucrats on side and then somebody stands up and says I think it would be safer if we kept the medicals and I'm a Doctor whereupon the bureaucrats take the easy way out. In the last couple of months we've had posts here from people who are having trouble with CASA medicals for no really good reason. I know a fair number of private pilots and most of them do seem to worry about passing the next one. The risk these people pose to innocent third parties on the ground or in the air is very small (no I don't have the numbers or confidence intervals but in the media I hear about far more ground vehicles hitting houses than aircraft hitting houses) but all of them drive cars on the roads where vehicles closing at 200kph are separated by a painted white line and the ability of the drivers to miss. In engineering there is no virtue in making systems more complex or expensive than necessary. There are two questions to ask what problem are we REALLY trying to solve here and what does the experimental evidence say?. Common errors are trying to solve the wrong problem and ignoring clear experimental results. As a doctor you have a bias to solve the medical problem even though in the overall system it is a very small part of the problem. Before accusing me of using faulty logic you might also like to read my post properly. I realise now that you probably didn't know that the BGA didn't have formal medicals. You made an unwarranted assumption before posting. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments -
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Carol did a little search and turned this up: http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/petition_for_exemption.pdf 41 pages, page 11 has this heading if you don't want to read it all. Equivalent level of safety is demonstrated in history This petition for exemption is backed by sound statistical data Continue from there. Various statistical studies are referenced. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Thanks Mike and Carol, That's Gold, OK, bring it on. Implement it and see what happens! Unless I have completely mis read it again, an initially medical issuance would still be required (i.e. Driver's licence initial issue requires a medical and this is used in lieu)? Then attendance and sign of for medical self awareness courses and using self report for restricted operations (i.e. single engine, one pax max etc..)? Michael From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 10:27 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals Carol did a little search and turned this up: http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/petition_for_exemption.pdf 41 pages, page 11 has this heading if you don't want to read it all. Equivalent level of safety is demonstrated in history This petition for exemption is backed by sound statistical data Continue from there. Various statistical studies are referenced. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals, BGA, ASA, Ballooning USA
Michael, I think you will find that the BGA requirement now is different from the one that applied in the 1970s when the study I referred to was done. The BGA got done over by European harmonisation We're all just trying to go flying with the minimum fuss and bother. It is all too easy to start specifying requirements without good evidence to back them. This just results in flying becoming more difficult and expensive and I don't think anyone here wants that. We don't need to give the politicians and bureaucrats ideas and ammunition. There is one possibility I won't post about on the web. I have talked to a few people about it and I get them to promise they won't do that either. Mike At 12:48 PM 14/10/2013, you wrote: Thanks Mike. Noted. I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. Mike, I have carefully re-read your posts. You said: The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component... No-where did you explicitly mention in your post that the BGA uses self declared medicals, so I apologise for not looking that up prior, so I may have been in error to use 5 out of 800 as a medical accident rate. On looking at the BGA website, however; Before going solo, you need to get a GP certificate, hence this is NOT self certifying. Hence there is some medical filtering even if only once (analogous to driving a car). (http://www.gliding.co.uk/learningtoglide/whocanglide.htm ) Fitness As a general rule, if you are fit enough to drive a car, you are fit enough to fly a glider. Before you fly, you will need to sign a simple medical declaration and, before you fly solo, you will need to get your GP to certify that you meet the same standards that you must meet to drive a car. For more information, please see the medical page. Gliding is suitable for people with a range of disabilities - for more information, see the heading Disabled Gliding. Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
This is increasingly academic given that CASA have already decided to remove the requirement for class-2 medicals for private flight, with limitations. http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_100908 The scheme should be live at the end of this year, and applies to all holders of SPL, PPL and CPL licenses. You'll need to ask your doctor to assess your medical fitness to the standard documented in the Austroads publication Assessing Fitness to Drive for Commercial and Private Vehicle Drivers, with CASA amendments. Any GP can do it, and most of them should be across the requirements. Send the doctor's certification to CASA and you're done, no mess, no fuss. When flying under the drivers license medical standard, CASA imposes these restrictions: - Private operations only - Single engine - 1500kg MTOW - No more than one passenger - No aerobatics - Not above 10,000' AMSL - Day VFR. That encompasses the vast bulk of gliding activities. I'd strongly suggest that in the event that GFA's requirements for visiting overseas pilots are more stringent than CASA's, it'll be incumbent on GFA to change them accordingly. - mark On Oct 14, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Texler, Michael michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au wrote: Thanks Mike and Carol, That’s Gold, OK, bring it on. Implement it and see what happens! Unless I have completely mis read it again, an initially medical issuance would still be required (i.e. Driver’s licence initial issue requires a medical and this is used in lieu)? Then attendance and sign of for medical self awareness courses and using self report for restricted operations (i.e. single engine, one pax max etc..)? Michael ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
The law as it stands in Australia, and also in most other parts of the world for that matter, is that the pilot’s Medical Certificate must be issued by the State that issued the licence under which the pilot is flying. What is unique to Australia is that CASA does not recognise an overseas licence for flying gliders in Australia. To fly gliders here a person must be a member of the GFA and fly under the GFA pilot certification process. Hence a person flying on an Australian pilot certificate must have an Australian Medical. Now GFA has never had authority to accept a Medical Certificate issued by other than an Australian Registered Medical Practitioner. The reason this has not previously been an issue is that overseas pilots were most likely self-declaring their medical status, which still remains an option. However, now that Instructors must have a Medical Certificate, the matter of foreign pilot medicals became an issue because there are a number of foreign pilots coming to Australia to instruct. So GFA approached CASA on this subject and stressed the value of the doctor/patient relationship, and it was agreed that a certificate from a GP with access to the patient's medical history is preferred. So we now have an agreement in principle that foreign pilots who hold a valid ICAO Class 2 or higher Medical Certificate (or equivalent documentation) issued by their licencing state may fly gliders in command while that Medical Certificate remains current. It is anticipated that CASA will shortly approve an amendment to our Operational Regulations to reflect this. So while it is unfortunate that a handful of Australians with an overseas medical can’t use it here, those foreign pilots entering Australia with their overseas issued licence and medical won’t be inconvenienced. Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 5:52 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilot’s Licence. Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 4:30 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals What about those who hold dual citizenship?? On 10 October 2013 21:53, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I’m not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst Sent: Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM To: aus soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA’s medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Most glider pilots from Europa don't hold a Medical Class 2 but a medical for gliding. This is going to be an issue. To get a Medical Class 2 in the Netherlands is 400 AUD. Grietje On 11/10/13 6:51 PM, Christopher Thorpe wrote: The law as it stands in Australia, and also in most other parts of the world for that matter, is that the pilot's Medical Certificate must be issued by the State that issued the licence under which the pilot is flying. What is unique to Australia is that CASA does not recognise an overseas licence for flying gliders in Australia. To fly gliders here a person must be a member of the GFA and fly under the GFA pilot certification process. Hence a person flying on an Australian pilot certificate must have an Australian Medical. Now GFA has never had authority to accept a Medical Certificate issued by other than an Australian Registered Medical Practitioner. The reason this has not previously been an issue is that overseas pilots were most likely self-declaring their medical status, which still remains an option. However, now that Instructors must have a Medical Certificate, the matter of foreign pilot medicals became an issue because there are a number of foreign pilots coming to Australia to instruct. So GFA approached CASA on this subject and stressed the value of the doctor/patient relationship, and it was agreed that a certificate from a GP with access to the patient's medical history is preferred. So we now have an agreement in principle that foreign pilots who hold a valid ICAO Class 2 or higher Medical Certificate (or equivalent documentation) issued by their licencing state may fly gliders in command while that Medical Certificate remains current. It is anticipated that CASA will shortly approve an amendment to our Operational Regulations to reflect this. So while it is unfortunate that a handful of Australians with an overseas medical can't use it here, those foreign pilots entering Australia with their overseas issued licence and medical won't be inconvenienced. *Christopher Thorpe* *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Matt Gage *Sent:* Friday, 11 October 2013 5:52 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilot's Licence. *Christopher Thorpe* *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Ron Sanders *Sent:* Friday, 11 October 2013 4:30 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals What about those who hold dual citizenship?? On 10 October 2013 21:53, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I'm not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *jim crowhurst *Sent:* Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM *To:* aus soaring *Subject:* [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
And most foreign pilots will be able to self-declare, so this is really a storm in a tea-cup. The odd pilot who can't get an acceptable certificate overseas but needs one can visit an Australian GP and be assessed to the Austroads standards. An Australian GP charges significantly less than $400. Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Grietje Wansink Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 6:58 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals Most glider pilots from Europa don't hold a Medical Class 2 but a medical for gliding. This is going to be an issue. To get a Medical Class 2 in the Netherlands is 400 AUD. Grietje On 11/10/13 6:51 PM, Christopher Thorpe wrote: The law as it stands in Australia, and also in most other parts of the world for that matter, is that the pilot's Medical Certificate must be issued by the State that issued the licence under which the pilot is flying. What is unique to Australia is that CASA does not recognise an overseas licence for flying gliders in Australia. To fly gliders here a person must be a member of the GFA and fly under the GFA pilot certification process. Hence a person flying on an Australian pilot certificate must have an Australian Medical. Now GFA has never had authority to accept a Medical Certificate issued by other than an Australian Registered Medical Practitioner. The reason this has not previously been an issue is that overseas pilots were most likely self-declaring their medical status, which still remains an option. However, now that Instructors must have a Medical Certificate, the matter of foreign pilot medicals became an issue because there are a number of foreign pilots coming to Australia to instruct. So GFA approached CASA on this subject and stressed the value of the doctor/patient relationship, and it was agreed that a certificate from a GP with access to the patient's medical history is preferred. So we now have an agreement in principle that foreign pilots who hold a valid ICAO Class 2 or higher Medical Certificate (or equivalent documentation) issued by their licencing state may fly gliders in command while that Medical Certificate remains current. It is anticipated that CASA will shortly approve an amendment to our Operational Regulations to reflect this. So while it is unfortunate that a handful of Australians with an overseas medical can't use it here, those foreign pilots entering Australia with their overseas issued licence and medical won't be inconvenienced. Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 5:52 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilot's Licence. Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 4:30 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals What about those who hold dual citizenship?? On 10 October 2013 21:53, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I'm not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Excellent. So no issues then. Grietje On 11/10/13 7:07 PM, Christopher Thorpe wrote: And most foreign pilots will be able to self-declare, so this is really a storm in a tea-cup. The odd pilot who can't get an acceptable certificate overseas but needs one can visit an Australian GP and be assessed to the Austroads standards. An Australian GP charges significantly less than $400. *Christopher Thorpe* *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Grietje Wansink *Sent:* Friday, 11 October 2013 6:58 PM *To:* aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals Most glider pilots from Europa don't hold a Medical Class 2 but a medical for gliding. This is going to be an issue. To get a Medical Class 2 in the Netherlands is 400 AUD. Grietje On 11/10/13 6:51 PM, Christopher Thorpe wrote: The law as it stands in Australia, and also in most other parts of the world for that matter, is that the pilot's Medical Certificate must be issued by the State that issued the licence under which the pilot is flying. What is unique to Australia is that CASA does not recognise an overseas licence for flying gliders in Australia. To fly gliders here a person must be a member of the GFA and fly under the GFA pilot certification process. Hence a person flying on an Australian pilot certificate must have an Australian Medical. Now GFA has never had authority to accept a Medical Certificate issued by other than an Australian Registered Medical Practitioner. The reason this has not previously been an issue is that overseas pilots were most likely self-declaring their medical status, which still remains an option. However, now that Instructors must have a Medical Certificate, the matter of foreign pilot medicals became an issue because there are a number of foreign pilots coming to Australia to instruct. So GFA approached CASA on this subject and stressed the value of the doctor/patient relationship, and it was agreed that a certificate from a GP with access to the patient's medical history is preferred. So we now have an agreement in principle that foreign pilots who hold a valid ICAO Class 2 or higher Medical Certificate (or equivalent documentation) issued by their licencing state may fly gliders in command while that Medical Certificate remains current. It is anticipated that CASA will shortly approve an amendment to our Operational Regulations to reflect this. So while it is unfortunate that a handful of Australians with an overseas medical can't use it here, those foreign pilots entering Australia with their overseas issued licence and medical won't be inconvenienced. *Christopher Thorpe* *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Matt Gage *Sent:* Friday, 11 October 2013 5:52 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilot's Licence. *Christopher Thorpe* *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Ron Sanders *Sent:* Friday, 11 October 2013 4:30 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component which would seem to be in accordance with the US experience. Of those, again IIRC, one was a medical condition that wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had PPLs and one was a serving military officer who had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. Even CASA recognised this in writing in a discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the same medical standard as a State driver's Licence (very little, looking at what drives). They specifically said some in the aviation industry might be uncomfortable with this but that the stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian aviation which has a long history of such. Mike At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07 Hi All, To self declare is hardly onerous. If you have any of the conditions that make you ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of aviation medicals and whether they have really made the skies safer, using the argument that medicals are costly and someone knows somebody that had a medically incapacitating event just after they had passed their medical etc . Would the same argument work regarding glider maintenance, saying that form 2 are not worthwhile because there have been instances where gliders have come to grief after passing their form 2 etc Doctors hat on Michael == Dr. Michael Texler M.B. B.S. M.D.(Adel) F.R.C.P.A. Consultant Anatomical Pathologist c/- Department of Histopathology, PathWest, B Block, Level 5, Fremantle Hospital, Alma Sreet, Fremantle 6160, WA, Australia Ph: +61 (0)8 9431 2681 Email: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 14:52 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe mailto:ctho...@bigpond.comctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilots Licence. Christopher Thorpe From: mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 4:30 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals What about those who hold dual citizenship?? On 10 October 2013 21:53, Christopher Thorpe mailto:ctho...@bigpond.comctho...@bigpond.com wrote: The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. Im not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.htmlhttp://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher
[Aus-soaring] Medicals
I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA’s medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
I went to the UK recently for the Vintage Rally. The club there told me I would have to have the UK medical certificate signed by a UK licenced practitioner. Luckily for me my GP here had retained his UK licence so he signed it addending his licence number. I thought it odd that I could arrive in the UK and pick any GP who did not know my medical history. Would not certification by your own GP in medically reputable countries be better? From: jim crowhurst Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:37 PM To: aus soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA’s medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I'm not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst Sent: Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM To: aus soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA's medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Ok thanks. So a foreign pilot must hold a class 2 or higher. Still quite restrictive. --- Original Message --- From: Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com Sent: 10 October 2013 11:54 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I'm not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst Sent: Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM To: aus soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA's medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Thanks Christopher. That is very sensible compared to what the UK required. Chris Recognition of overseas Medical Certificates Foreign pilots who hold a valid ICAO Class 2 or higher Medical Certificate (or equivalent documentation) issued by their licencing state may fly gliders in command while that Medical Certificate remains current. A copy of their Certificate must be provided to the GFA secretariat for acceptance via their CFI. From: Christopher Thorpe Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I’m not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst Sent: Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM To: aus soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA’s medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
No, this is not the case at all. Foreign pilots, as GFA members, are capable of making a self-declaration if they do not suffer from any of the prescribed medical conditions and do not intend to instruct or fly charter operations. Where a medical is required, GFA will accept their overseas ICAO Class 2 or equivalent or they can get an Australian Registered GP to sign them off. I’m not sure there is any other country in the world that is this flexible! Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 7:04 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals Ok thanks. So a foreign pilot must hold a class 2 or higher. Still quite restrictive. --- Original Message --- From: Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com mailto:ctho...@bigpond.com Sent: 10 October 2013 11:54 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. I’m not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html Christopher Thorpe From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst Sent: Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM To: aus soaring Subject: [Aus-soaring] Medicals I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA’s medical requirements? No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME. This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
What about those who hold dual citizenship?? On 10 October 2013 21:53, Christopher Thorpe ctho...@bigpond.com wrote: The QA means exactly what it says. An AUSTRALIAN pilot must have an AUSTRALIAN Medical Certificate. ** ** I’m not sure how this morphed into the requirements for foreign pilots, but there is a separate page dedicated to foreign pilots at the following link:- http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Ops/foreignpilots.html ** ** Christopher Thorpe ** ** *From:* aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *jim crowhurst *Sent:* Thursday, 10 October 2013 9:37 PM *To:* aus soaring *Subject:* [Aus-soaring] Medicals ** ** I have just been reading the medicals section of the OPS part of the GFA website and was looking at the FAQ. With respect to overseas pilots, I am confused *I am an Australian Citizen but hold a Class 1/Class 2 Medical Certificate issued overseas. Can I use this to meet GFA’s medical requirements?* * No. You must hold a Medical Certificate issued by an Australian Registered Doctor or DAME.* This means that regardless of any medical obtained overseas, a visiting pilot on holiday MUST see an Australian doctor and get signed off if they have ever had any of the exclusions, even if they hold a class 1 or 2 medical in their country. Some of the conditions are quite common in the age group of pilots that visit Australia. Surely if they have been signed off in the UK or USA or Germany for example they would meet requirements here? Is there any reciprocal arrangement with certain countries? My concern is that Australia may lose out on overseas pilots coming to visit because of the medical requirements. Has this always been this way or are these new regulations? This is more stringent than EASA, and that's saying something! Can someone knowledgeable explain the rules for overseas pilots or is it simply that if you can't self certify, see an Australian doctor and hope they sign off? It's not exactly convenient... thanks ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
