[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss and Hasse

[Howard Posner]

Thomas Schall wrote:

 BTW: Per definition the most uninspired music ever written is the music
 by PDQ Bach

I don't know if you can define inspiration, but I can think of few 
things more inspired than the first bagpipe solo in the Sinfonia 
Concertante or the entrance of the double reeds in the second 
recitative from Iphigenia in Brooklyn.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Koyunbabaroque

[Howard Posner]

On Saturday, Jul 29, 2006, at 05:52 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky 
wrote:

 I am not familiar with Domeniconi's music.

I'm impressed that you've managed to avoid Koyunbaba, given its 
monster-hit status in the classical guitar world for the last 15 or so 
years.

 Does anyone have or has tried the
 piece in question?

Google it.  Somewhere in the 28,900 hits you may find a score (I know 
there's a modern guitar tab version online) or an MP3.  Or try the 
classical guitar list.  Everyone there will know it.

You could try starting at
http://music.download.com/3640-9101-100082580-100082892.html

My browser just stares stupidly at it.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque lute newbie (waaahooo!)

[howard posner]

On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:59 PM, Jim Abraham wrote:

  have Satoh's and Lundgren's methods, and I've
 looked at Roman's website, so I understand the tuning, but if I  
 tune the
 first course to f3, the 13th course is waaay too slack to play.  
 Even the
 first course seems too slack at f3, but then I've never played a lute
 before. Any advice?

Yes: get used to it.  You'll come to love it in time.  I'm assuming  
1) that you're coming to it from modern classical guitar and 2) the  
strings aren't actually resting on the frets.   If you've got guitar  
fingers, lute stringing will seem very slack.  It needs a different  
approach and different technique.  For now, just be gentle. 
  
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Plainte - Weiss

[howard posner]

On Sep 6, 2007, at 5:44 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 There was an exchange with TCrawford apropos.

And Tim used to join Weiss for tea?


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss: use of 5th and 6th course

[howard posner]

On Sep 29, 2007, at 11:18 AM, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote:

 (by the way, I am a harpsichordist by training, not really a  
 lutenist- yet,
 so if my thinking is skewed, just say so.)

I'm not qualified to comment on your thinking (ten years of marriage  
to a harpsichordist inclines to me suspect skewed thinking , and my  
page numbers don't jibe with yours, but the same questions have  
occurred to me about at least one Weiss piece, a Chaconne in A, as I  
recall.  All your hypotheses are reasonable (although the last one  
doesn't work without including one of the others).

Another possibility, of course, is that composers sometimes use their  
resources in ways that strike us mere mortals as illogical or  
impractical.

If you want to play it on an 11-course and drop the B, or on a 13- 
course and add some low A's, you probably won't get struck by lightning.

 I got puzzled by the Sonata 12 in A major (starting on page 51v) where
 everything is clearly for 11 course lute, going down only
 to the 11th course with a (4) below staff...Except for ONE note in ONE
 movement, the Menuet on page 54r, measure 15 which uses one single
 note on course 12 (5) for B. I find this utterly strange, but maybe  
 I am
 missing something here.

 Why is this strange to me? Well, if we assume the one note on the 12th
 course was on a 13 course lute, then why did Weiss avoid using the
 low A of the 13th course for a piece written in A Major? It seems  
 rather
 unnatural, even peculiar to me. Indeed, it is not in keeping
 with they way he uses low notes in other pieces. In addition, the  
 other
 Sonata in A Major No. 16, within volume 1 of the London Manuscript
 on the other hand makes full use of the 13th course A everywhere...
 In my mind, only four reasons are possible for this =8Clone note'  
 as far as I
 can judge:
 -Was this Sonata meant for a 12 course lute, so there was no low A
 available, just a B which was used just once?
 -is this perhaps an example of one of his first pieces written for  
 the 13
 course lute and he (or his pupil ?) were getting used to it?
 -A mistake or addition?
 -The piece originally belonged to another suite and was copied here
 inadvertently without regard to the =8C13 course nature'
 of the other pieces in (Volume 1 anyway) of the London manuscript?  
 (The ms
 is not chronological as Time Crawford and others have already
 clearly noted, so could this be an earlier piece to begin with?)


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Theorbo

[howard posner]

Music written for a big instrument tends to take the size into  
account.  There aren't a lot of big left-hand stretches in the  
Italian theorbo music I've played.  I don't know much about the  
French repertoire.

On Dec 8, 2007, at 9:04 AM, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote:

 Interesting. This is all new info for me.
 You will be getting an instrument at 86 cm- so quite full sized.
 Can you describe any problems of dealing with that length and playing
 more soloist pieces? Isn't that quite difficult?


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Doubling The Parts?

[howard posner]

What I mean is:  when performing that in an ensemble, what's the
point of the lute doubling one of the other parts?


Projection in a large performance space may have been an issue; it  
could have been a way of creating a super-lute. spaces.


Haydn's piano trios often have a similar texture, with the violin and  
cello playing what the piano plays, or vice versa.  It's still  
fashionable to speculate that Haydn was compensating for the  
instrument's weak treble, or bass, or whatever.


A simpler explanation is that players or listeners liked that sort of  
thing.  It certainly makes it easier to know when you're playing the  
right notes, which might be a consideration in a casual evening's  
music-making when everyone has eaten and imbibed well.




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music

[howard posner]

On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Edward Martin wrote:

 Generally, the lute in mid to later 17th century France was the d  
 minor
 tuning.  The top string was usually at f.  For a length of 68 cm,
 generally, a gut treble can go to f at a=415.  If you exceed 68 cm,  
 the
 standard for a probably dropped a bit, as with my many years of
 experience, the treble will break prematurely.

 For example, if your lute is 72 cm mensur, the standard should be a  
 bit
 lower, .e. a = 392.

No lie.

392 seems to have been the standard pitch. at least in Paris, judging  
from the woodwind instruments that came from there in the later 17th  
century.  You might want to give it a try even on a 68 cm lute and  
experiment with the lower tension.  In spite of what you may have  
heard recently in this part of cyberspace a propos of theorbos,  
French musicians generally and lutenists in particular probably were  
less concerned with loudness than their Italian counterparts  
(contemporary accounts indicate they didn't play nearly as loudly),  
so in stringing there are aesthetic considerations at work other than  
the breaking point of the high string.


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music

[howard posner]

On Feb 13, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Edward Martin wrote:

 Yes, the French seem to have played at a lower standard.

Well, let's not be unkind...

 Even Hoppy
 Smith's Vieux Gaultier recording was at 392.

I didn't know Hoppy was =06French.


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Letter to the Editor

[howard posner]

On Mar 3, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

 How much did lute players learn about music (not just lute playing)  
 in the
 Renaissance and Baroque periods?


They learned what other musicians learned, and were educated in the  
same ways.  In the renaissance, they'd learn singing, the practice of  
hexachords, modal theory, counterpoint and enough of the seven  
liberal arts to understand the philosophical underpinnings of music.   
See, for example, the first page of the dialogue that begins  
Robinson's Schoole of Musicke.  In the 18th century, they learned  
continuo practice as well.

They certainly didn't occupy the sort of peripheral position that  
classical guitarists occupied in the 20th century. 
  
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: More about Hor che Tempo (Merula)

[howard posner]

On Mar 5, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Thomas Tallant wrote:

 Hor che Tempo is a lullaby, thus the droning quality of most of  
 continuo part.  There is a shift in tonality and mood at the end  
 that is tricky.  Overall, it's a deceptive piece:  It's long and  
 difficult for the singer (technically and dramatically); and it is  
 also hard on the theorbist.  I've heard fine recordings by Nigel  
 North and (I think) Jill Feldman and by Maria Cristina Kiehr with  
 La Fenice (Heritage of Monteverdi, vol. V).  The Heritage of  
 Monteverdi series offers more fine music by Merula.  I'm not sure  
 how easy it is to find the recordings anymore, but they are worth  
 the hunt.

Paul O'Dette and Emily van Evera did it at an LSA seminar years ago,  
a performance memorable because Paul's music kept falling off the stand.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany

[howard posner]

On Apr 17, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:


Re the German Lute Society's Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique und  
Zugleich der Composition, Rob wrote:

 Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English?

It comes with an English booklet.  Here are some excerpts of a review  
I wrote in the LSA Quarterly a while ago:

The manuscript, housed in recent years in the Prague University  
Library and the Lobkovicz family library in Rudnice, has been  
considered a significant source of information about playing continuo  
on the d-minor-tuned baroque lute.  But it's at once both more and  
less than that.  For modern readers, it's a different way of looking  
at music.  Most of us learn continuo, if at all, as a sort of  
addendum to technique and theory, part of our understanding of how  
the key system works.  The Fundamenta shows a musical culture in  
which continuo was an organic, integral part, even though musicians  
still thought modally.
*   *   *
The book begins with the very basics -- the lute's strings, the notes  
of the scale -- and proceeds into harmony, a bit of counterpoint, and  
a few elements of composition.  Along the way it explains and gives  
examples of harmonic progressions and continuo notation, including  
such fine points as how to elaborate the treble line to avoid (or  
disguise) parallel fifths and octaves.  It explains preparation and  
resolution of dissonances, and how specific chords come about and  
where they lead.  It gives capsule descriptions of musical forms  
(overture, slow and quick allemandes, courante, air, bourree,  
rigaudon, gavotte, minuet, sarabande, rondeau, canarie, passepied,  
gigue, march) and then offers preludes to demonstrate how to play in  
the usable keys.  It ends, a bit anticlimactically, with  
illustrations of the eight clefs a musician was likely to encounter.

All musical examples are given in on two parallel staves, one in  
continuo notation (bass clef with figures) and the other in  
tablature.  The result is a good look at what continuo notation meant  
to the author, and it's often surprising.  The book is downright  
capricious about the octave in which the bass part sounds.  Where the  
continuo part goes from second-space C to second-line B and back, the  
tablature part takes the C's down an octave on the lowest (11th)  
course, so the line jumps a ninth twice instead of going up and down  
a semitone.  This, like many such instances, maximizes use of open  
strings, but elsewhere the line is just as capriciously taken up an  
octave.  There is a similarly free attitude about whether to play  
reiterated bass notes.

A major surprise is the variety and complexity of the realized  
parts.  Above the continuo line, the tablature shows arpeggiations,  
melodic elaborations, and moments of free fantasy.  There is little  
explanation in the text of what this all means.  The author may have  
been offering a manual for improvisation, giving the continuo line as  
a harmonic framework.  Or he may have been suggesting a free and  
creative approach to playing continuo.

*   *   *
The text is spare, even cryptic, as if the author were being charged  
by the word.  If I understand the editors correctly, the original is  
mostly in Latin, with a few Germanisms and an occasional German  
passage.  The main volume has the original text and a parallel column  
with Mathias R=F6sel's German translation and editorial notes.  An  
English translation of the Latin (also by R=F6sel) is in a separate  
booklet, which has marginal references to the page in the main volume  
but no tablature or staff illustrations, so the English reader must  
toggle back and forth between books.  The editors try to make the  
task easier with marginal notes keying the English text to two sets  
of page numbers: those of the main volume and those of the original  
manuscript folios (which are printed in the main volume's text).   
This feature would be more of a convenience if the cross-references  
were always correct, which they aren't.  The English version lacks,  
for the most part, the German version's explanatory notes.  It  
suffers from occasional awkwardness of the sort that could have been  
avoided by having a native English speaker read it before publication  
(Some of the abbreviations could not be dissolved because of bad  
legibility.  After all these rules have been aforesaid now follows  
their execution.).  Other passages can be sticky because the  
linguistic concepts are strange (concert becomes pleasant according  
to fantasy), and R=F6sel apparently wants to avoid imposing his own  
views on the text.  The bottom line is that this is a German book,  
not an English one, and it shows.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique

[howard posner]

After I quoted parts of my review of Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique  
und Zugleich der Composition someone asked if the shortcomings of  
the English fascicle were such that I'd recommend against buying it.


The answer is a qualified no.  It's a valuable book, offered for a  
mere 15 Euros, and anyone who wants to play continuo in d minor  
should have it.  And as long as Mathias was being, as he put it,  
shameless, he might have offered a few words about how to order it  
from the Deutsche Lautengesellschaft.  I just took a quick look at  
its web site, and it wasn't obvious.


The cross-referencing glitches and the occasional translation  
awkwardness are annoyances, but will not prevent a native English  
speaker from figuring out what's going on.  But for someone whose  
English skills are not good, it may be another story.  So I wouldn't  
recommend Fundamenta for George W. Bush.




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kirnberger on lutes and temperament

[howard posner]

On Apr 27, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Dale Young wrote:

 It was, however, the time when the best music was written for  
 it, ever.

1779?


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Mysterious whatnots

[howard posner]

On Dec 28, 2008, at 7:19 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:

 I've always wondered,

You and everyone else...

 to what does the title Les Baricades
 Mysterieueses refer?


One theory is that it refers to the the repeated suspensions in the  
piece.  Others are more fanciful.  It's not the only baffling  
Couperin title.  Baron, writing in 1727, complained that French  
composers’ naming of pieces “smacked of charlatanry and affectation,  
as though the composer wanted to entertain with the name more than  
the music.”

You might look at:

http://www.as.miami.edu/personal/sevnine/barricades.htm
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Minuet and Trio

[howard posner]

On May 8, 2009, at 9:24 AM, David Rastall wrote:

 In the mid-Baroque (specifically Lauffensteiner), when you're playing
 a minuet and trio, is it historically accurate to play them at
 slightly different tempi, or is that strictly a Classsical-period
 thing?

Someone who actually danced the minuet, or played the minuet as dance
music, would likely not have changed the tempo, because it messes up
the dancing.  Not that anyone would be dancing to Lauffensteiner, but
they would think of dance movements as dance music.


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dutch theorbo painting online

[howard posner]

On May 9, 2009, at 3:12 PM, chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 In all seriousness - WERE there even left handed people around at
 this time and in this culture?
 Before my time I'm told, kids in American schools were ALL forced
 to write with the right hand.  Left handedness was not tolerated.

This was never universal practice, and it didn't work.  In a New
Jersey public school in the 1930's, my father's teachers used to
smack his left hand with a ruler when they saw him writing with it.
He writes, and does everything else, with his left hand to this day.

It should be noted that if you're writing with your left hand from
left to right with a quill pen and the slow-drying ink it required,
your hand follows the quill, so your hand and sleeve will smear the
ink you've just put on the paper.  So teaching right-handed writing
had a practical purpose.

 Chris (who's got a left-handed guitar playin' wife)

Really?  Whose?
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Purcell and lute

[howard posner]

John Wilson knew Purcell.

On May 28, 2009, at 3:04 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote:


Dear All,

Seemingly a simple question -- what would you play on the lute/ 
theorbo/guitar (or like to hear) in a program of Purcell songs, if  
they are accompanied by such an instrument? Mace excluded, as he is  
another story.


After some desperate searches I become convinced there is no  
English music for lute from the second half of the XVIIth C.,  
except for a mass importation of the fashionable French well known  
names -- am I right? or have overlooked something?


Thanks in advance for your expert help and advice,
Jurek





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Various UPDATES, was Re: Savarez, Aquila Pyramid equivalencies

[howard posner]

Thanks for the handy reference, but the second link works only if  
gauges is spelled right:



http://torban.org/images/string-gauges-conversion.pdf



On Aug 4, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

1. The 2 string conversion charts,  plain and overspun, comfortably  
together -

http://torban.org/images/string-conversion-table.pdf
http://torban.org/images/string-guages-conversion.pdf

2. A set of photos of the torban at the Lviv historical museum-
http://torban.org/lim.html

3. Dumka, a new Lied ohne Worte -
http://torban.org/torban4c.html
Would make a good set of variations, eventually.
Enjoy,
RT






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ton Koopperson - pitch of J S B Cantatas (YouTube)

[howard posner]

On Sep 5, 2009, at 6:07 AM, David Rastall wrote:

 But I don't understand:  with all the transposing going on between
 465, and 415, what is the outcome pitched at?  When TK says, put the
 whole thing in Eb, and the thing is ready, my question is:  Eb tuned
 in what?...415 or 465?

They're playing in Eb at 465.  The recorders are pitched at 415,
playing a transposed part in F.

 Another question:  if everybody was supposed to be playing at 415,
 why were all instruments not tuned at 415?  Why were some pitched at
 465, and the other French tuning at somewhere below A = 415 (I can't
 remember what the number is)?

Because technology transfer in the 17th and 18th centuries was slow,
and the woodwind business was a seller's market.  The Germans (and,
indeed, the English and Italians) were fairly quick to adopt the
newly refined baroque flutes and newly developed oboes and bassoons
that came out of Paris, but not so quick to learn how to build them.
Thus the new instruments remained an item of international trade for
a generation or so.  The foreign buyers were willing to take the
instruments pitched at 392 and adapt by lowering local pitch or
transposing, and the Parisian makers, evidently able to sell all the
instruments they wanted to sell pitched at 392, had no reason to
develop instruments at the myriad local pitches of the places to
which they were being exported.

I'm not sure where 415 enters the picture, but the whole-tone and
minor third transpositions are still with us.  Modern clarinets are
in Bb (whole tone low) or A (minor third low) or Eb (minor third high
or sixth low, depending on your point of view), and indeed in modern
bands, trumpets and cornets are in Bb, clarinets and saxophones in Bb
or Eb, treble clef baritone horns in Bb, and indeed all the brass
except the trombones (and tubas?) are transposing.  This is partly
traditional, partly because of inherited notions about what pitch the
instruments sound best at, and partly so that instruments can be
built in different sizes without requiring the players to learn
different fingerings; a sort of wind instrument tablature.

 Apparently singers were supposed to be
 that flexible too...

Well, you don't have to tell the singers -- just give them a starting
note.

I haven't really studied it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bach's
vocal parts tend to avoid the high and low extremes of the singers'
ranges, so the parts could move up or down a tone without causing
problems.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Difference 13c.-11c. vs. 10c.-6c.?

[howard posner]

On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:40 PM, chriswi...@yahoo.com
chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 It may be a problem for us, but it wasn't for them.  French
 lute music remained current throughout the German baroque.  The
 Gaultier/Mouton La Belle Homicide shows up in the Augsburg ms.
 right alongside Falckenhagen, Hagen, Kleinknecht and Haydn.  It and
 a host of other French favorites show up in other German
 manuscripts until the bitter end.  Baron, although he didn't speak
 highly of French music, was obviously familiar with the repertoire.

 Remember, the 13-course started life as an 11-course with a couple
 of extra courses slapped on with a rider.  Surely no late players
 would have set their (quite likely intentionally converted) 13-
 courses down every time they got the hankering for some brise.

What does soft ripened cheese have to with it?

 Today, nobody should deprive themselves from playing this beautiful
 music just because of our completely un-historical need to
 compartmentalize things.

Just as we were about to descend into a major episode of HIP
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, your words are a welcome medication.

Except the part about Camembert.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET?

[howard posner]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  I didn't mention meantone.

On Dec 13, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:


So what?
Once you put your fingers on the strings in MT: the comma is no  
longer what it is supposed to be.
The fact is that MT sounds like clowning, from chord-character  
overemphasis.

RT

- Original Message - From: howard posner  
howardpos...@ca.rr.com

To: BAROQUE-LUTE Lutelist baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 12:02 PM
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: D-minor tuning and ET?


OK, gang: if you're using near equal temperament or mostly  
equal temperament or equal temperament but a flat fourth fret  
or equal temperament with flat A strings, what you're using is  
unequal temperament.


I suppose the process many of us actually use is backward from the  
historical one: we start with ET and temper it.  The result is  
no  more equal temperament than fifth-comma meantone is  
Pythagoran or  just.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: North American baroque?

[howard posner]

On Jan 16, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Edward Martin wrote:


There isn't a great deal of early North American music of which I am
aware, but one of the prominent musicians was Francis
Hopkinson.  Perhaps you could find some pieces by him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Hopkinson


But be aware that much (all?) of his Temple of Minerva, an homage to  
American-French friendship, consists of tunes by English composers  
(Handel and Arne among them) with new words.


For leads on Hopkinson, you might want to look at:

http://www.americanmusicpreservation.com/ 
Americanmusicrecordings.htm#francishopkinsonsongs



Recordings of Francis Hopkinson are rare.


As they certainly should be, since he died in 1791.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A couple of questions...

[howard posner]

On Nov 19, 2010, at 3:16 PM, wikla wrote:

 So if I am asked to play the lute parts in the St. John, to what am I
 really asked??

At the risk of sounding obvious, you should ask the director, the only person 
who knows. 

Bach made changes to both his passions, and both involved eliminating a lute 
obbligato.  In the original St. John, Betrachte mein Seel had a lute part.  The 
later version gives it to the organ.

Who's the lute player in this video of Karl Richter's St. John?  She gets more 
attention from the camera than the singer (Nimsgern? Engen?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMiwUs70U9U

For that matter, who's the lute player in this Gardiner video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wLrTK882b4feature=related





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A couple of questions...

[howard posner]

On Nov 19, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 on a Cezar Mateus archlute.

Thanks.  You must have really good eyes...



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo

[howard posner]

On Aug 11, 2011, at 6:04 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  this
   matter of theorbo sizes still seems to be an area of misunderstanding.

True, but we like you anyway.

BTW, I recently saw Toy Story 3 with my family, and heartily recommend it.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[howard posner]

On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:

 My question is: should I
   just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of strings for
   392?

Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.

 Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound better
  with new strings. Any thoughts?

Do you like it at 392 now?
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[howard posner]

On Nov 30, 2011, at 7:39 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

 Ask your colleagues if they can
 transpose a lute song.

What evidence do you have that he has colleagues?
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[howard posner]

On Nov 30, 2011, at 12:35 AM, William Samson wrote:

 I sometimes wonder why I haven't come across much in the way of
   contemporary agonisings about pitch standards and compatibility of
   lutes with their wide range of scale lengths for a given nominal
   pitch.  Presumably this would have been a problem for the old guys
   too?  Or have I missed something?

For most players, pitch was a given.  If you lived in London in 1720 and the 
local pitch was A=410, you tuned your lute to A=410 or you couldn't play with 
other instrumentalists else, which would make you useless as a musician. 

We sometimes forget that solo music was a small part of what lute players did.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[howard posner]

On Nov 30, 2011, at 9:27 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

 Oh dear, English again - and from the other side of the pond at that!
 Perhaps I'm guilty of the Carly Simon song here: You're so vain, you
 probably think this song is about you. My humble apologies to all
 involved if that is the case.

Not sure what you're apologizing for, unless it's sending a message to the list 
instead of to me.  

Your English seems fine, except the expression is comic relief.  Relief is 
the noun and relieve is the verb.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[howard posner]

On Dec 1, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  We've already discussed this: the range of these songs is well within
   that of the generality of sopranos and tenors  (see David Hill's recent
   paper which also discusses this matter) so there is really no need to
   transpose except, of course, for unexpected (at the time) voices in
   this repertoire

I don't we've already discussed this.   If someone told me that transposition 
is unnecessary because only altos (including women), baritones and basses would 
need it, I would have remembered it.  It makes a strong impression.

Is this where Graham Chapman comes on in his colonel's uniform and stops the 
discussion because it's too silly?
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[howard posner]

On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:29 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 Howard, think a little -
 transposition is precluded by temperament.

I'll let David know.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight

[howard posner]

On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:58 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   As David Hill points out (have you bothered
   to read his paper?) the voice generally expected when the songs were
   composed was soprano/tenor.  As he says, the male alto, to take David
   Van Oijan's personal preference, was certainly around but in England
   was not deployed as a solo voice outside of a cathedral, collegiate or
   courtly chapel...

You've been bandying about two issues here, and I think you've confused them.  
First, is it anachronistic to transpose lute songs (and the subsidiary question 
about whether David van Ooijen is some kind of freak because he transposes 
tablature accompaniments without writing out the transposition)?  Second, is it 
anachronistic, in a renaissance-faire sort of way, for male altos to sing lute 
songs?  Your answer yes to both questions, and indeed cite the second answer as 
dispositive of the first question.  

I see several fundamental flaws in your conclusion.  

First, male altos' range considerations are no different from those of female 
altos or baritones or basses.  So male altos are relevant to the question of 
transposing lute songs only in that they would add numbers to the class of 
singers who would need to transpose a song published in the soprano/tenor 
range, which would indicate that more than half the available singers might 
need to transpose at least some of the songs if they wanted to sing the top 
line.  The class of transposers might actually have been considerably more than 
half:  the songs were written for home use, largely by amateur singers, which 
might mean that a larger percentage of the singers would have had lower voices 
-- amateurs tend to sing lower because they tend to use the same register 
singing as they do speaking, but let's put that aside for now.  The point is 
that male alto or no male alto, many singers would have needed to transpose 
their favorite lute song. 

Second, the idea that male altos weren't deployed as a solo voice outside of a 
cathedral, collegiate or courtly chapel is irrelevant to the question of 
whether they sang lute songs.  Again, these songs were published so that 
amateurs could sing them in their homes.  The singers were not deployed.  
They did what they did.  Male altos sang in English choirs.  Do you think they 
were completely silent when they walked out of the  church?  NEVER sang when 
they got home?  If you don't think that, what do you suppose a male alto would 
have sung at home in 1608, particularly if he had a lute in E?  Do you think no 
male alto EVER sang a lute song that way?  (Note to Martyn: before answering, 
look up rhetorical question)

Third, your whole paradigm is inapplicable, because it assumes that there is 
some sort of verifiable performance practice for lute songs.  There can be 
performance practice only where there is performance.  We're not talking about 
the deployment of theorbos in Venetian polychoral motets in 1603 or 
countertenors in Handel's operas in 1729, where you can expect that there was a 
regular practice.  Lute songs weren't written to be performed.  We're talking 
about what people did in their homes, adapting the songs to their own 
circumstances.  

Fourth, I note that during this thread you've asked David what evidence he 
had that lutenists historically might have transposed tablature, and what 
evidence he had that male altos sang lute songs.  Asking that question is 
sometimes an exercise in critical thinking and intellectual rigor, and 
sometimes an exercise in silliness.  If you demand evidence in a situation 
where there's no reason to expect it, you're like the anti-Stratfordians who 
cite, as evidence that William Shakespeare could not have written Shakespeare's 
plays, the fact that he owned no books, which they infer from the absence of 
evidence that he owned any.  They could, on the same evidence, infer that he 
owned no shoes. 

Let's assume there's no evidence for sight-transposition of tablature or male 
altos singing lute songs.  So what?  

If I comb payroll records, or contemporary accounts, or written programs or 
playbills, and find lots of details about singers in London in 1729 but no 
evidence of countertenors, I can rationally infer that there were none, because 
I'd expect to find evidence if there were. 

But I can't rationally expect to find much evidence of transposition on sight, 
because by definition it doesn't leave written evidence.  I can't comb payroll 
records or playbills to find out whether countertenors sang lute songs in their 
homes, and it's sheer luck if there's a contemporary account that bears on the 
subject.  The absence of evidence is meaningless.  Before you ask whether 
there's evidence, you need to think about whether it's a relevant question or 
just a silly one.

A final thought, then I need to get back to earning a living: If David van 
Ooijen can transpose tablature, do you think Dowland couldn't?


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight

[howard posner]

On Dec 2, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote:

   A while back on the lute list there was a link to Hector Sequera's
   dissertation about Paston - very interesting. It's 100 years earlier,

Actually, Paston, being Elizabethan, is the period we're talking about.   You 
were led astray by my example of Handel in 1729; I brought it up because it's 
different from the subject under discussion.

   but goes into a lot of detail about the various keys in the Paston
   manuscripts and the sizes of lutes that would have been available to
   Paston.  It's pretty clear that Paston would have gotten out a
   different sized lute rather than transposing.  

As would all but the most accomplished players.  





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[howard posner]

On Dec 2, 2011, at 11:14 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 The idea of instant transposition on an instrument PRECLUDES meantone
 temperaments, for starters.
 It would only possible in EqualT. in a hypothetical situation that a given
 transposition causes no hideously hard fingerings.
 Say, your singer decides to transpose down a semitone from C-major.  

Then you tell your singer to go find a piano player.  The more likely situation 
is moving from C to D or Bb, or F to G.

 All your frets are in the wrong places.

This is actually not a big deal.  Frets are movable.  When I had one lute and 
had to move between 440 and 415, I used a capo and could reset the frets in a 
minute.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Male alto in Lute songs? wasTransposing lute tablature on sight

[howard posner]

On Dec 3, 2011, at 1:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Thank you for this Howard and for your time.


And thank you for restating what you'd already written.  Since I've already 
responded to it, I'll spare the list further comment.


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dubut and Jean Mercure

[howard posner]

On Dec 5, 2011, at 1:42 PM, William Samson wrote:

 There were at least two DuButs and possibly three. 

..fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to 
the Pope
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[howard posner]

On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Equal temperament was used on lutes from the 16th century onwards 

Except by Gerle (1532)
And the Dowlands (1610)
And Ganassi (1543)
And Mersenne (1636)
And anyone who read their books and followed their instructions
And anyone who played with wire-strung instruments with unequally-tempered 
fixed frets.
Or unequally tempered keyboard instruments or wind or string players who played 
in unequal temperament.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[howard posner]

On Jan 6, 2012, at 9:51 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

 Mersenne insists that the best way to play in tune with fretted instruments 
 in particular, is to use some sort of equal temperament. 

And yet the fret placement he gives in Harmonie Universelle is decidedly 
unequal. 
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[howard posner]

On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

 Although Denis does not recommend openly a sort of equal temperament, he 
 acknowledges the fact that fretted instruments are not naturally and 
 technically apt for unequal temperaments. I think his ivory frets, which 
 could be adjusted according to the required temperament, are only another 
 experimental endeavour comparable with Galilei's suggested use of tastini

Galilei doesn't suggest tastini.  He says other prominent players use them, but 
he thinks it's a bad idea.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[howard posner]

On Jan 7, 2012, at 2:09 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Incorrect again Howard - he does not say those who use tastini are
   'prominent' players as you do (from where do you get this),  but that
   they are foolish.

You must have missed Jean-Marie's post yesterday, quoting Galilei's Fronimo:

 Eumatius [the student]: ... Also, how does it happen that you do not use 
 frets that are spaced by unusual inequality of intervals, and some other 
 little frets that take away the sharpness from the major third and tenth, as 
 I have seen used by some universally known, skillful men, from whom I 
 understand that both are exceedingly necessary and useful.


Fronimo, the teacher, does not dispute that players who use tastini are skilled 
and universally known,  but he does say that their followers are foolish:

 Fronimo : ... Now I come to the matter of tastini [little frets], which 
 lately some people seek to introduce in order to remove some of their 
 sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to persuade those who 
 are more foolish than they). 

I've made the point before here (probably before Martyn's time on the list) 
that in describing them as universally known and skilled, Galilei is ceding 
an unusually large share of the field to them, something he would not have done 
unless the practice he describes was widespread.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

[howard posner]

On Jan 7, 2012, at 2:03 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   Read Lindley's book on lute temperaments if you don't believe me.

I have read it, and it's a major reason I don't believe you.

Lindley ignores or dismisses nearly all the evidence that contradicts his 
thesis, often comically.  My personal favorite is citing Valderrabano's duets 
at a minor third as evidence of ET on page 22, while noting on page 55 that 
Valderrabano instructs the players to adjust the frets.  He inexplcably 
dismisses  as question-begging Doni's remark about the wideness of the 
distance between the second and third frets.  Lindley thinks that Milan's music 
needs to be played in meantone, presumably thinking Milan is some sort of 
island in an ET ocean.  He concedes that Gerle calls for meantone, but 
dismisses Dowland's instructions, substantively identical, as so inept that 
Dowland probably never used them.

Lindley always strikes me as the detective searching all over for clues to the 
murder while the butler is standing in front of him with a smoking pistol.

What it boils down to is that theorists wrote a lot of stuff that can be read 
as describing equal temperament (though much of it can also be read as simply 
meaning more equal than keyboards, or more versatile than keyboards because the 
frets were adjustable) while all the practical evidence (fretting instructions 
and the actual frets on metal-strung instruments) shows non-ET.  In Mersenne's 
case, I think the very theorist cited as evidence of ET gives a non-ET fretting 
scheme.

The universally known, skillful players with whom I've discussed Lindley's book 
(mostly when they were faculty at LSA seminars), always do it with an annoyed 
tone, for reasons similar to the ones I just noted.  Lindley is the latest 
theorist who's at odds with practice.

BTW, the book we're discussing is Lutes, Viols and Temperaments (Cambridge 
University Press, 1984)
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Satoh Recording

[howard posner]

David Rubio  1976, after Tielke
On Apr 30, 2012, at 3:41 PM, sterling price wrote:

   Hi--Today I recieved a 2LP recording by Toyohiko Satoh called 'French
   Baroque Lute Music' from 1978. Unfortunatly the liner notes are missing
   from the set. If someone has the recording, could you check and tell me
   who made the lute used? It sounds -very- nice, and I am quite
   impressed.


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Minkoff contact

[howard posner]

On May 16, 2012, at 8:23 AM, R. Mattes wrote:

 This is partly right and partly wrong - but first let's be
 clear about what we talk here: the rights on the composition
 (which most likely ended centuries ago :-) or the right of
 the _image_ of the original work. Those remain with the owner
 of that artefact (and are independent from the musical rights).

I don't think copyright is created by mere possession under anyone's copyright 
law.  It makes no sense.  If three museums or collectors each have a first 
edition of Dowland's Third Book of Songs, would they all have a copyright in it?

 And then there are the photographer's rights ...
 Yes, _iff_ the manuscript (image rights) is public domain then
 it's pretty easy ro distribute copies/facsimiles of the artefact
 (manuscript/print/scribble etc.). But - most libraries will not 
 release their content into public domain. As far as I can tell,
 every time I ordered microfilms/images I needed to sign papers that
 explicitly forbid further distribution. I had to sign similar 
 agreements working with the microfilm collections of several 
 libraries/institutions (Basel Musikwissenschaft  University Library,
 London - BL etc.)

I think they had you sign those agreements precisely because they had no 
enforceable right in the historical document.  They were creating a copyright, 
as to you, by contract.
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bruwell modern edition?

[howard posner]

On Aug 8, 2012, at 7:16 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

 Did I write Bruwell? No wonder I couldn't find any references in the
 library catalogue ... ;-)

That's what happens when you use a looking glass.


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: BWV 1025

[howard posner]

On Aug 13, 2012, at 3:48 AM, Taco Walstra wrote:

 Interesting is if you look at the trauerode score (198) aria is that it 
 indicates liuti at the start of score, i.e. plural. Would this mean that 
 the piece was played /intended to be played by more than one lute?

There are two obbligato parts.  
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 3rd finger in french baroque?

[howard posner]

On Feb 25, 2013, at 5:38 AM, James Jackson weirdgeor...@googlemail.com wrote:

 don't forget the Saizenay MS was compiled towards the end of
   the golden age of French baroque, when it was obvious it was coming to
   an end.

Were there odd-looking men on street corners with signs saying, Repent!  The 
Golden Age is Coming to an End!?
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: duos with alto recorder

[howard posner]

On Jun 20, 2014, at 8:58 AM, Ken Brodkey kbrod...@pacbell.net wrote:

 What about flute? Can the recorder play most baroque flute music 

Not without major surgery on most flute parts.  The alto recorder bottoms out 
at first-space F, while the flute goes down to D or C.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: duos with alto recorder

[howard posner]

On Jun 21, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Ken Brodkey kbrod...@pacbell.net wrote:

  It looks like it's time, though, to get my act together and learn to realize 
 figured bass.

You’re going to have a busy month.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: redrilling bridges (was Necking with Swans or whatever)

[howard posner]

On Jun 24, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Matthew Daillie dail...@club-internet.fr wrote:

 Anyway, ask any reputable maker, it's not a job they enjoy doing (and I have 
 had it done on a couple of my lutes). Some makers prefer to make a new bridge 
 which can be glued on to the soundboard without it being removed, but others 
 would only consider fitting a new bridge with the top off.

When I wanted my bridge respaced, I was told, “No problem, just basic fill and 
drill.”  Of course, he was a restorer and repair guy (with a studio filled with 
pre-1850 pianos), not a lute builder, so his attitude toward respacing a bridge 
may have been different from a builder who’d rather spend time building the 
next instrument.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: resting rt hand pinky

[howard posner]

> On Mar 14, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Mine is too short, so I don't, ever.

And we know what Marco Rubio says about guys with short pinkies.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Welcome to the Lute Mustang

[howard posner]

Just in case any of us thought there are no new frontiers to conquer.

> On May 7, 2017, at 6:51 PM, sterling price  
> wrote:
> 
>Here is a video I made this morning---
>   Sterling
>   [1]Welcome to the Lute Mustang
> 
>[youtube.png]
> 
> Welcome to the Lute Mustang
> 
>   29 String Arch Lute




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[howard posner]

> On Oct 18, 2017, at 1:15 AM, Rob MacKillop  wrote:
> 
>  There is nothing "authentic" about a single-strung 11c lute, I am the
>   first to admit. The truth is, the older I get the harder it becomes to
>   swap between instruments. These days I mainly play guitar and theorbo
>   (single strung) and to suddenly pick up an 11 or 13 c lute is more of a
>   challenge than it used to be. So, I decided to make life a little
>   easier for myself. I'm sure this will upset some people

It certainly upset me.  I haven’t been able to eat or sleep since I saw it.  
Now I’m tired and skinny.  I’m hoping that with therapy I can get over it and 
resume a normal life.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[howard posner]

> On Oct 18, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Rob MacKillop  wrote:
> 
>   I don't think you ever will recover, Howard. Send me your shrink bills.

Not possible.  In SSTS (Single-Stringing Trauma Syndrome) cases she insists on 
cash up front.




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck lute in Leipzig

[howard posner]

> On Feb 13, 2018, at 3:38 AM, Luca Manassero  wrote:
> 
>  this could be a sort of proof that lutes extending to the contra-G
>   existed, but in that case why is this an unicum?

Because all the other 14-course lutes were lost in fires, or eaten by termites, 
or rotted in damp basements, or, if they were built like the Hoffman instrument 
we’ve been talking about, were converted into soup kettles or small boats?

We all know that surviving lutes are a fossil record—a tiny remnant of the 
instruments that were built and played in their day—but we constantly forget it 
and fall into the trap of assuming that what survives in that record is an 
indication of the numbers that existed three centuries ago.  It’s possible that 
there was only one 14-course German baroque ever, but far more likely that 
there were others that have perished over time.



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: thumb in or out???

[howard posner]

> On Aug 3, 2019, at 3:06 PM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>   Nigel North has a relaxed thumb out playing style. Notice how the
> pinky wanders!

And the thumb wanders inside the fingers (e.g., 0:58, 6:58).  

I suppose whoever just wrote that he didn’t want to listen to baroque lute 
players who use thumb-in can skip those notes.

Sooner or later these discussions about thumb-in/out start sounding like the 
Lilliputians debating which which end of the egg to suck.



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