Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Damien Garwood]

Hi Chris,
Ironically, I went to college to learn to be a piano tuner, simply 
because you'd think that I was born at a piano. I've been playing since 
I was four years old and I'm the first to moan if a piano is out of tune!
A person who is blind, rather than a blind person...Is there a 
difference? I get what she's trying to say, but it's only interpretation 
that make those phrases seem different (linguistically of course, 
there's no difference at all, apart from the phrase of independence, as 
I'm going to call it, being more syllables).
I see. Yes, everyone who has told me that blind people can draw and 
write in print etc have either been sighted, or have had some sight 
before becoming totally blind. I guess that's why you knew about shadows 
and glass and so on as well. Since I was born totally blind, I haven't 
got a clue about those concepts!
Pain and temperature are based on personal opinion - what might be hot 
to someone might be warm to you. That's certainly true for me, I've 
always been hypersensitive to pain, so being pricked with a needle would 
feel like being cut, and food from a microwave had to sit for ten 
minutes before I'll even touch it! We already know that a needle to a 
doctor is just "a sharp scratch".
You bring up another interesting point there, about action men and 
dolls. I never got the concept of modeling. If you gave me an action 
man, my first reaction would be, "that's nothing like a man". To give 
you a personal example, I went to Buckingham Palace last year and got a 
keyring with a model of the palace. My mum was trying to show me the 
different elements, the guards and so on, and I said, "That's nothing 
like a guard, or a palace". I never could quite get that link. I only 
know it's a palace because my mum told me. Similarly, someone had built 
a tower using lego, and because it wasn't 100 feet tall or whatever, my 
first reaction was, "That's no tower!"
In fact, that's also true for gaming. When I play Manamon, and I go to a 
city, my first thought is, "this map  has maybe five or six buildings 
and I can walk around it in less time than it would take to walk the 
street I live on. How on earth is that a city?"
Anyways, despite the brief game example I have a feeling this is going 
way off topic now. If anyone is still interested in my thoughts and/or 
experiences, or want to question/respond to anything I've already 
discussed here, feel free to message me privately.

Cheers,
Damien.

On 01/08/2020 11:29 pm, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

Hi mate,
It's really bad that seemingly so many people have such little support. 
I mean, I'm unreasonably lucky in the support I had, although ironically 
I think that stemmed from an intended lack thereof.


When the doctors told my Mum I was blind, their "silver lining" was 
"well, MRS. Norman, they make great piano tuners". My Mum hates being 
told what she can and cannot do, and promptly told the doctors (I'm 
quoting): "He'll be a fucking jigalow before he becomes a piano tuner".


Then my grandparents - who would have been the mollycoddling sort - told 
her how she was being too harsh on me, making me get my own drinks ETC, 
so she told them that she'd not be around forever, so that was just 
tough titty.


Thirdly, the German teacher who used to come to see me (Mum and Dad were 
in the army, based in Germany), told Mum that it was great that she and 
my Dad included me in the family, as - according to him - many German 
families who had blind parents sent them away to special homes, and told 
the family they were still born.


My mum is a seriously fierce lady, who won't hear any slight against her 
kids, and that was it. I wasn't going to be a blind kid, I was going to 
bloody well have the same opportunities as other children my age, and I 
was going to be a person who is blind, rather than a blind person.


So yes, I have done painting, and I can handwrite, albeit pretty 
terribly. I could see a little when I was younger, so I guess I had yet 
another unfair advantage over many of my blind peers, although now 
that's all gone black, so I'm riding the blind boat my friends! :)


Also, because Dad was away a lot with work (first the army and then with 
Securicore), he really made the most of it with us when he came back, so 
we'd build fires with him, and sit around them talking and toasting 
marshmallows, or whittling sticks with pen knives, or bike riding, or 
climbing trees. Me and my sister are proper little tear-aways!


With the cutting and burning, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not 
saying you should torch your kids to teach them that fire is scary, but 
similarly, if you tell them the metal stick they're toasting their 
marshmallow on will transfer heat and get hot, and they touch it 
anyways, they should absolutely be allowed to do that. Honestly, it'll 
hurt for 15 seconds, maybe require being run under hot water, but it's 
not life threatening, and the lesson is a lasting one. Same applies with 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Damien Garwood]

Hi,
Just got back from my mum's, so only just got these updates.
Christy, I would tend to disagree. It depends how your brain is wired 
differently. Even someone with severe learning/intellectual disabilities 
can be taught basic things. As far as I am aware, the only time it is 
impossible to learn is if you have no sense of self-awareness, such as 
being in a stupour or otherwise unconscious.

What matters is:
1. Problems need to be explored personally. As I have stated, autism in 
and of itself is a whole spectrum of different disorders, all with their 
own set of signs and symptoms. Even more confusing, other disorders that 
used to be classified as general anxiety disorder, asperger's syndrome, 
attention defecit, certain types of schizophrenia and so on, have also 
now been classified under "autistic spectrum disorder", or ASD (at least 
here in the UK).
If autism itself is too broad, then imagine how much more broad the 
umbrella of learning/intellectual disabilities are. In fact, ASD and ID 
are classified as two completely different problems, even though they 
both have similar symptoms. So if you want to help people with these 
problems, it is first necessary to establish with the learner how their 
problem affects them in daily life. Depending on the topic in question, 
this can be explored actively (via a questionnaire) or passively (by 
observation).
2. Teachers need an open mind. It is only very recently that mental 
health has been explored in any real depth by the wider public, and so 
there is still a large cluster of society who are not open to it (unless 
it is to be openly hostile). It's like any other disability (as I said 
before, it isn't something anyone would willingly choose). It's sad that 
it took a member of royalty (Prince Harry I believe) to openly talk 
about his problems with mental health for it to come out of the "taboo" 
stage into the "tolerable". After all, tolerance leads to acceptance 
which leads to understanding.
3. Teachers need patience. Just because one method hasn't worked doesn't 
mean the case is hopeless. It could be as simple as rephrasing something 
(if you're using a concept to symbolise, try and find another). It might 
be that you have to try to find another way to accomplish the same task. 
If the task is physical and they don't understand what you're telling 
them, show them. Then make sure they've got it afterwards. Always try to 
find and use the learner's strengths and experiences. I can talk from my 
own experience there - three years ago I attended a course to learn to 
use Reaper, and I struggled like mad. Now I have one-on-one tuition, and 
I'm getting it as clearly as if I had merely revisited something I 
learned at an early age and forgot!
I think the most important lesson is that these points can be said for 
all people, even those who are plonked into the category of "normal" by 
society. One size never fits all, and I think the more we can accept 
that, the day will come when any and all disability isn't something to 
be patronised, scorned or ignored (including the shock-horror cycle that 
causes them to be reclassified every two minutes), and the world will be 
somewhat kinder.

Cheers,
Damien.

On 02/08/2020 05:06 am, Christy S wrote:

 From a purely analytical standpoint I'm fascinated too.


I think the main point though is, if someone's brain doesn't know how to 
grasp a concept due to wiring from very early on for whatever reason, it 
can't just be taught. This is important, because if more people 
understood this, I think there would be a lot less judgmental attitudes 
in the blind community toward those who can't do spatial concepts. I 
point at myself saying this, because I've at least thought similar 
things like sheesh, didn't get you good training? Or WTF, how do you get 
lost in a kitchen? With a better understanding now I know better. So 
while games or other software might very well help with things like say, 
being able to memorize turns for those who have a hard time mapping 
something in their brain, it's not going to be able to just fix the 
issue. Now of course, if the real issue actually was a lack of training, 
or severe sheltering to the point of never being able to learn something 
and I know these things do happen, then you've got a completely 
different thing going on.



I do love this discussion, though.


On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

That's really interesting!

It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. 
A developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn 
fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about 
your experiences with things.


As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if 
you feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material 
recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was 
safe to hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Sharon S]

Hi, I’m thinking the sun might not be too much help in an area where there is 
allot of tall buildings. I know on my walk to work there is only really one 
spot when the sun hits me directly and that is when I am crossing one of the 
last roads. The rest of the time the buildings block it from me.

 

Bye for now.

>From Shaz.

Canberra, Australia.

 

From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of Chris Norman 
via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, 5 August 2020 8:17 PM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

 

Honestly, the compass is the only app I miss having switched over to Android. 
I've made my own version, but the location API isn't super accurate on my 
Pixel, unless I'm moving.

 

That's really interesting about the sun. Surely that kind of relies on you 
having some frame of reference? I feel like there's times where that wouldn't 
work, but now I'm thinking about it, I can't think when.


 

Take care,

 

Chris Norman

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 20:20, Patrick Smyth mailto:patricksmyt...@gmail.com> > wrote:

If you're sighted or have enough low vision it's not hard to tell 
time by the sun, as long as there aren't clouds. If you're in the 
northern hemisphere, the sun is always somewhat to the south. Over 
the course of the day it moves from east to west. In the early 
morning or late evening someone with only light perception might 
be able to make an educated guess. At noon, if you lived pretty 
far north, you might be able to tell as a total by the direction 
the sun is hitting your body.

The compass app on the iPhone has come a long way, and seems to be 
moderately reliable now. Might also be useful in conjunction with 
a conventional map app, at least for that annoying bit as you get 
going. I really do hate that part...Siri, if I knew which way blah 
street was, I wouldn't need your directions.


Patrick



"Sharon S" mailto:ko...@areujoking.com> > writes:

> Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table 
> at the office I’m normally
> walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I run into it. 
> Also the desk is pretty big and heavy
> so I don’t think there is any chance of me moving it when I run 
> into it. As for putting things on it
> like my drink I make sure I can feel it has hit the table before 
> I let go of it. Most of the time I
> don’t have any issues because I have learnt where things are it 
> is just the desk that I have
> problems with. If I am out of the house or at someone’s place I 
> don’t know then I use the white
> cane which stops me from running into things.
>
>
>
> I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an 
> injury to himself. I think the
> problem is he walks too fast so before his white cane tells him 
> there is something there he has
> walked into it. Unfortunately this also goes for people, I can’t 
> tell you how many times we have
> been going somewhere together and he almost walks into me. I 
> have gotten to the stage where
> I make sure I know where he is and make sure either I am walking 
> on a different side of the path
> or he is in front of me. Even when I am following a wall and 
> making noise with my cane he still
> doesn’t realise I am there. I think he would benefit with a dog 
> so he could keep up the fast pace
> and not run into everything or everyone, but he isn’t 
> interested.
>
>
>
> Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down 
> and try and get some sleep. I
> only picked it up to start a download, if I have a bit to 
> download I like to do it during our off peak
> hours which starts after midnight. If I do my downloading of 
> books and stuff during the off peak
> when no one else in the family is using it then it works out for 
> us all. We have download limits
> on how much we can download per month and we have one limit for 
> off peak and one for peak
> time. So if I do all my downloading during the off peak it 
> leaves the download during the peak
> time to my parents to do what they want. So far this has worked 
> quite well, well at least we
> have never gone over our limit with the off-peak downloads where 
> we have with the peak time.
> We are lucky because if we go over we don’t get charged extra 
> they just slow down our internet
> speed. This can get frustrating but most of the time we have 
> gone over have been only a few
> days before it resets.
>
>
>
> Well I really should go now.
>
> From Shaz.
>
> Canberra, Australia.
>
>
>
> From: blind-gamers@groups.io <mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io>  
> mailto:blind-gamers@groups.io> > On Behalf 
> Of Chris Norman via
> groups.io <http://groups.io> 
> Sent: Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
> To: blind-

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Honestly, I think they're only really useful in conjunction with something
else, unless you're orienteering or something. You still need coordinates
to find your way to anything smaller than a city though.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 21:12, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

> Interestingly enough I have never used a compass though I do have one.
>
> Its not like I have needed one as such.
>
>
>
> On 5/08/2020 3:40 am, Sharon S wrote:
>
> Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table at the
> office I’m normally walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I run
> into it. Also the desk is pretty big and heavy so I don’t think there is
> any chance of me moving it when I run into it. As for putting things on it
> like my drink I make sure I can feel it has hit the table before I let go
> of it. Most of the time I don’t have any issues because I have learnt where
> things are it is just the desk that I have problems with. If I am out of
> the house or at someone’s place I don’t know then I use the white cane
> which stops me from running into things.
>
>
>
> I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an injury to
> himself. I think the problem is he walks too fast so before his white cane
> tells him there is something there he has walked into it. Unfortunately
> this also goes for people, I can’t tell you how many times we have been
> going somewhere together and he almost walks into me. I have gotten to the
> stage where I make sure I know where he is and make sure either I am
> walking on a different side of the path or he is in front of me. Even when
> I am following a wall and making noise with my cane he still doesn’t
> realise I am there. I think he would benefit with a dog so he could keep up
> the fast pace and not run into everything or everyone, but he isn’t
> interested.
>
>
>
> Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down and try
> and get some sleep. I only picked it up to start a download, if I have a
> bit to download I like to do it during our off peak hours which starts
> after midnight. If I do my downloading of books and stuff during the off
> peak when no one else in the family is using it then it works out for us
> all. We have download limits on how much we can download per month and we
> have one limit for off peak and one for peak time. So if I do all my
> downloading during the off peak it leaves the download during the peak time
> to my parents to do what they want. So far this has worked quite well, well
> at least we have never gone over our limit with the off-peak downloads
> where we have with the peak time. We are lucky because if we go over we
> don’t get charged extra they just slow down our internet speed. This can
> get frustrating but most of the time we have gone over have been only a few
> days before it resets.
>
>
>
> Well I really should go now.
>
> From Shaz.
>
> Canberra, Australia.
>
>
>
> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io 
>  *On Behalf Of *Chris Norman via groups.io
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?
>
>
>
> Hi mate,
>
> Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really good at
> reading the sun (thinking that excludes most of us), or they've got a
> finely-tuned magnet embedded somewhere on their person that they can feel
> the pull of. Thinking of it, that would be pretty cool, just sayin'!
>
>
>
> Yes, depth perception is a pain! My wife's is pretty rubbish, and she
> actually injures herself far more than I do. I would even go so far as to
> say that people with partial vision probably have a harder time than those
> of us with none, because we don't try and use what we don't got, and we
> don't get harried for looking like we can see stuff, when that's not the
> case.
>
>
>
> How do you manage with your lack of depth? I'm guessing you take steps to
> ensure your desk or the floor around it aren't swimming with drinks, or
> your stuff is all over the floor because you booted your desk too hard?
>
>
>
> Also, give your doggy a stroke from me! :)
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 04:27, Sharon S  wrote:
>
> Hi all, I’ve been reading this topic with interest. I’m only new to this
> list so haven’t posted before. I joined the list to find out more about
> accessible games. I have had vision problems since I was six and it has
> slowly gone down hill from there. Now I’m getting close to forty and I have
> very little sight. On a good day I can see shapes but no real detail. Most
> of the time I am f

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Honestly, the compass is the only app I miss having switched over to
Android. I've made my own version, but the location API isn't super
accurate on my Pixel, unless I'm moving.

That's really interesting about the sun. Surely that kind of relies on you
having some frame of reference? I feel like there's times where that
wouldn't work, but now I'm thinking about it, I can't think when.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 20:20, Patrick Smyth  wrote:

> If you're sighted or have enough low vision it's not hard to tell
> time by the sun, as long as there aren't clouds. If you're in the
> northern hemisphere, the sun is always somewhat to the south. Over
> the course of the day it moves from east to west. In the early
> morning or late evening someone with only light perception might
> be able to make an educated guess. At noon, if you lived pretty
> far north, you might be able to tell as a total by the direction
> the sun is hitting your body.
>
> The compass app on the iPhone has come a long way, and seems to be
> moderately reliable now. Might also be useful in conjunction with
> a conventional map app, at least for that annoying bit as you get
> going. I really do hate that part...Siri, if I knew which way blah
> street was, I wouldn't need your directions.
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> "Sharon S"  writes:
>
> > Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table
> > at the office I’m normally
> > walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I run into it.
> > Also the desk is pretty big and heavy
> > so I don’t think there is any chance of me moving it when I run
> > into it. As for putting things on it
> > like my drink I make sure I can feel it has hit the table before
> > I let go of it. Most of the time I
> > don’t have any issues because I have learnt where things are it
> > is just the desk that I have
> > problems with. If I am out of the house or at someone’s place I
> > don’t know then I use the white
> > cane which stops me from running into things.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an
> > injury to himself. I think the
> > problem is he walks too fast so before his white cane tells him
> > there is something there he has
> > walked into it. Unfortunately this also goes for people, I can’t
> > tell you how many times we have
> > been going somewhere together and he almost walks into me. I
> > have gotten to the stage where
> > I make sure I know where he is and make sure either I am walking
> > on a different side of the path
> > or he is in front of me. Even when I am following a wall and
> > making noise with my cane he still
> > doesn’t realise I am there. I think he would benefit with a dog
> > so he could keep up the fast pace
> > and not run into everything or everyone, but he isn’t
> > interested.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down
> > and try and get some sleep. I
> > only picked it up to start a download, if I have a bit to
> > download I like to do it during our off peak
> > hours which starts after midnight. If I do my downloading of
> > books and stuff during the off peak
> > when no one else in the family is using it then it works out for
> > us all. We have download limits
> > on how much we can download per month and we have one limit for
> > off peak and one for peak
> > time. So if I do all my downloading during the off peak it
> > leaves the download during the peak
> > time to my parents to do what they want. So far this has worked
> > quite well, well at least we
> > have never gone over our limit with the off-peak downloads where
> > we have with the peak time.
> > We are lucky because if we go over we don’t get charged extra
> > they just slow down our internet
> > speed. This can get frustrating but most of the time we have
> > gone over have been only a few
> > days before it resets.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well I really should go now.
> >
> > From Shaz.
> >
> > Canberra, Australia.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf
> > Of Chris Norman via
> > groups.io
> > Sent: Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
> > To: blind-gamers@groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi mate,
> >
> > Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really
> > good at reading the sun (thinking
> > that excludes most of us), or they've got a finely-tuned magnet
> >

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Haha, your friend sounds like me!! I can't walk in a straight line to save
my life. My wife used to get a bit annoyed with having to constantly swap
sides with me. That was until she started to do her own cane training under
blindfold... Now she meanders more than I do, and she's stopped complaining.

With your drink, a thing I personally find useful is if while holding your
drink, you angle your arm at the elbow, so that your forearm is at a 30 or
45 degree angle (obviously adjust your wrist to keep the cup level). Then
as you approach the table, you can feel the edge with the side of your
wrist. Just keep sliding forward until you're happy. If the edge of the
table is touching your wrist, then there's no chance of the thing you're
putting down falling off the leading edge.

Of course this doesn't take into account things like keyboards or mice on
the desk which could make it tip. For that, I extend my little finger
downward to feel the area I'm going to place  the cup.

No idea how I look when I do these things, but nobody's ever commented, so
it can't be totally outrageous.

Hope this helps someone.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 16:47, Sharon S  wrote:

> Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table at the
> office I’m normally walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I run
> into it. Also the desk is pretty big and heavy so I don’t think there is
> any chance of me moving it when I run into it. As for putting things on it
> like my drink I make sure I can feel it has hit the table before I let go
> of it. Most of the time I don’t have any issues because I have learnt where
> things are it is just the desk that I have problems with. If I am out of
> the house or at someone’s place I don’t know then I use the white cane
> which stops me from running into things.
>
>
>
> I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an injury to
> himself. I think the problem is he walks too fast so before his white cane
> tells him there is something there he has walked into it. Unfortunately
> this also goes for people, I can’t tell you how many times we have been
> going somewhere together and he almost walks into me. I have gotten to the
> stage where I make sure I know where he is and make sure either I am
> walking on a different side of the path or he is in front of me. Even when
> I am following a wall and making noise with my cane he still doesn’t
> realise I am there. I think he would benefit with a dog so he could keep up
> the fast pace and not run into everything or everyone, but he isn’t
> interested.
>
>
>
> Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down and try
> and get some sleep. I only picked it up to start a download, if I have a
> bit to download I like to do it during our off peak hours which starts
> after midnight. If I do my downloading of books and stuff during the off
> peak when no one else in the family is using it then it works out for us
> all. We have download limits on how much we can download per month and we
> have one limit for off peak and one for peak time. So if I do all my
> downloading during the off peak it leaves the download during the peak time
> to my parents to do what they want. So far this has worked quite well, well
> at least we have never gone over our limit with the off-peak downloads
> where we have with the peak time. We are lucky because if we go over we
> don’t get charged extra they just slow down our internet speed. This can
> get frustrating but most of the time we have gone over have been only a few
> days before it resets.
>
>
>
> Well I really should go now.
>
> From Shaz.
>
> Canberra, Australia.
>
>
>
> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io  *On Behalf Of *Chris
> Norman via groups.io
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?
>
>
>
> Hi mate,
>
> Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really good at
> reading the sun (thinking that excludes most of us), or they've got a
> finely-tuned magnet embedded somewhere on their person that they can feel
> the pull of. Thinking of it, that would be pretty cool, just sayin'!
>
>
>
> Yes, depth perception is a pain! My wife's is pretty rubbish, and she
> actually injures herself far more than I do. I would even go so far as to
> say that people with partial vision probably have a harder time than those
> of us with none, because we don't try and use what we don't got, and we
> don't get harried for looking like we can see stuff, when that's not the
> case.
>
>
>
> How do you manage with your lack of depth? I'm guessing you take steps to
> ensure your desk or the floor around it aren't swimming with

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Shaun Everiss]

Interestingly enough I have never used a compass though I do have one.

Its not like I have needed one as such.



On 5/08/2020 3:40 am, Sharon S wrote:


Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table at the 
office I’m normally walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I 
run into it. Also the desk is pretty big and heavy so I don’t think 
there is any chance of me moving it when I run into it. As for putting 
things on it like my drink I make sure I can feel it has hit the table 
before I let go of it. Most of the time I don’t have any issues 
because I have learnt where things are it is just the desk that I have 
problems with. If I am out of the house or at someone’s place I don’t 
know then I use the white cane which stops me from running into things.


I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an injury 
to himself. I think the problem is he walks too fast so before his 
white cane tells him there is something there he has walked into it. 
Unfortunately this also goes for people, I can’t tell you how many 
times we have been going somewhere together and he almost walks into 
me. I have gotten to the stage where I make sure I know where he is 
and make sure either I am walking on a different side of the path or 
he is in front of me. Even when I am following a wall and making noise 
with my cane he still doesn’t realise I am there. I think he would 
benefit with a dog so he could keep up the fast pace and not run into 
everything or everyone, but he isn’t interested.


Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down and 
try and get some sleep. I only picked it up to start a download, if I 
have a bit to download I like to do it during our off peak hours which 
starts after midnight. If I do my downloading of books and stuff 
during the off peak when no one else in the family is using it then it 
works out for us all. We have download limits on how much we can 
download per month and we have one limit for off peak and one for peak 
time. So if I do all my downloading during the off peak it leaves the 
download during the peak time to my parents to do what they want. So 
far this has worked quite well, well at least we have never gone over 
our limit with the off-peak downloads where we have with the peak 
time. We are lucky because if we go over we don’t get charged extra 
they just slow down our internet speed. This can get frustrating but 
most of the time we have gone over have been only a few days before it 
resets.


Well I really should go now.

From Shaz.

Canberra, Australia.

*From:*blind-gamers@groups.io  *On Behalf Of 
*Chris Norman via groups.io

*Sent:* Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
*To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

Hi mate,

Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really good at 
reading the sun (thinking that excludes most of us), or they've got a 
finely-tuned magnet embedded somewhere on their person that they can 
feel the pull of. Thinking of it, that would be pretty cool, just sayin'!


Yes, depth perception is a pain! My wife's is pretty rubbish, and she 
actually injures herself far more than I do. I would even go so far as 
to say that people with partial vision probably have a harder time 
than those of us with none, because we don't try and use what we don't 
got, and we don't get harried for looking like we can see stuff, when 
that's not the case.


How do you manage with your lack of depth? I'm guessing you take steps 
to ensure your desk or the floor around it aren't swimming with 
drinks, or your stuff is all over the floor because you booted your 
desk too hard?


Also, give your doggy a stroke from me! :)

Take care,

Chris Norman

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 04:27, Sharon S <mailto:ko...@areujoking.com>> wrote:


Hi all, I’ve been reading this topic with interest. I’m only new
to this list so haven’t posted before. I joined the list to find
out more about accessible games. I have had vision problems since
I was six and it has slowly gone down hill from there. Now I’m
getting close to forty and I have very little sight. On a good day
I can see shapes but no real detail. Most of the time I am fine
with my directions, that is unless I stop where I was going to
talk to someone and turn around a bit then it takes me a bit to
work out in which direction I should be going. This has been
helped with the assistance of a seeing eye dog. At the moment I am
between dogs and because of the virus I’m not going out much. I am
also pretty confident with my white cane in areas I know well but
put me on a new route and there will be trouble.

One thing I have noticed lately is my depth perception is totally
gone. For example at the office where I volunteer the desk is big
and white. I can see the desk as I walk up to it but I can’t judge
how far away it is so I either run into it o

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Patrick Smyth]

If you're sighted or have enough low vision it's not hard to tell 
time by the sun, as long as there aren't clouds. If you're in the 
northern hemisphere, the sun is always somewhat to the south. Over 
the course of the day it moves from east to west. In the early 
morning or late evening someone with only light perception might 
be able to make an educated guess. At noon, if you lived pretty 
far north, you might be able to tell as a total by the direction 
the sun is hitting your body.


The compass app on the iPhone has come a long way, and seems to be 
moderately reliable now. Might also be useful in conjunction with 
a conventional map app, at least for that annoying bit as you get 
going. I really do hate that part...Siri, if I knew which way blah 
street was, I wouldn't need your directions.



Patrick



"Sharon S"  writes:

Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table 
at the office I’m normally
walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I run into it. 
Also the desk is pretty big and heavy
so I don’t think there is any chance of me moving it when I run 
into it. As for putting things on it
like my drink I make sure I can feel it has hit the table before 
I let go of it. Most of the time I
don’t have any issues because I have learnt where things are it 
is just the desk that I have
problems with. If I am out of the house or at someone’s place I 
don’t know then I use the white

cane which stops me from running into things.



I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an 
injury to himself. I think the
problem is he walks too fast so before his white cane tells him 
there is something there he has
walked into it. Unfortunately this also goes for people, I can’t 
tell you how many times we have
been going somewhere together and he almost walks into me. I 
have gotten to the stage where
I make sure I know where he is and make sure either I am walking 
on a different side of the path
or he is in front of me. Even when I am following a wall and 
making noise with my cane he still
doesn’t realise I am there. I think he would benefit with a dog 
so he could keep up the fast pace
and not run into everything or everyone, but he isn’t 
interested.




Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down 
and try and get some sleep. I
only picked it up to start a download, if I have a bit to 
download I like to do it during our off peak
hours which starts after midnight. If I do my downloading of 
books and stuff during the off peak
when no one else in the family is using it then it works out for 
us all. We have download limits
on how much we can download per month and we have one limit for 
off peak and one for peak
time. So if I do all my downloading during the off peak it 
leaves the download during the peak
time to my parents to do what they want. So far this has worked 
quite well, well at least we
have never gone over our limit with the off-peak downloads where 
we have with the peak time.
We are lucky because if we go over we don’t get charged extra 
they just slow down our internet
speed. This can get frustrating but most of the time we have 
gone over have been only a few

days before it resets.



Well I really should go now.

From Shaz.

Canberra, Australia.



From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf 
Of Chris Norman via

groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?



Hi mate,

Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really 
good at reading the sun (thinking
that excludes most of us), or they've got a finely-tuned magnet 
embedded somewhere on their
person that they can feel the pull of. Thinking of it, that 
would be pretty cool, just sayin'!




Yes, depth perception is a pain! My wife's is pretty rubbish, 
and she actually injures herself far
more than I do. I would even go so far as to say that people 
with partial vision probably have a
harder time than those of us with none, because we don't try and 
use what we don't got, and
we don't get harried for looking like we can see stuff, when 
that's not the case.




How do you manage with your lack of depth? I'm guessing you take 
steps to ensure your desk
or the floor around it aren't swimming with drinks, or your 
stuff is all over the floor because you

booted your desk too hard?



Also, give your doggy a stroke from me! :)



Take care,



Chris Norman







On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 04:27, Sharon S  
wrote:


 Hi all, I’ve been reading this topic with interest. I’m only 
 new to this list so haven’t posted
 before. I joined the list to find out more about accessible 
 games. I have had vision
 problems since I was six and it has slowly gone down hill from 
 there. Now I’m getting close
 to forty and I have very little sight. On a good day I can see 
 shapes but no real detail. Most
 of the time I am fine with my directions, that is unless I stop 
 where I was goi

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Sharon S]

Hi, my dog sends you a lick back. When I am going to the table at the office 
I’m normally walking pretty slowly so it doesn’t hurt when I run into it. Also 
the desk is pretty big and heavy so I don’t think there is any chance of me 
moving it when I run into it. As for putting things on it like my drink I make 
sure I can feel it has hit the table before I let go of it. Most of the time I 
don’t have any issues because I have learnt where things are it is just the 
desk that I have problems with. If I am out of the house or at someone’s place 
I don’t know then I use the white cane which stops me from running into things.

 

I have a friend who is totally blind and he is always doing an injury to 
himself. I think the problem is he walks too fast so before his white cane 
tells him there is something there he has walked into it. Unfortunately this 
also goes for people, I can’t tell you how many times we have been going 
somewhere together and he almost walks into me. I have gotten to the stage 
where I make sure I know where he is and make sure either I am walking on a 
different side of the path or he is in front of me. Even when I am following a 
wall and making noise with my cane he still doesn’t realise I am there. I think 
he would benefit with a dog so he could keep up the fast pace and not run into 
everything or everyone, but he isn’t interested.

 

Well it is way past my bedtime so I better put the computer down and try and 
get some sleep. I only picked it up to start a download, if I have a bit to 
download I like to do it during our off peak hours which starts after midnight. 
If I do my downloading of books and stuff during the off peak when no one else 
in the family is using it then it works out for us all. We have download limits 
on how much we can download per month and we have one limit for off peak and 
one for peak time. So if I do all my downloading during the off peak it leaves 
the download during the peak time to my parents to do what they want. So far 
this has worked quite well, well at least we have never gone over our limit 
with the off-peak downloads where we have with the peak time. We are lucky 
because if we go over we don’t get charged extra they just slow down our 
internet speed. This can get frustrating but most of the time we have gone over 
have been only a few days before it resets.

 

Well I really should go now.

>From Shaz.

Canberra, Australia.

 

From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of Chris Norman 
via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, 4 August 2020 11:50 PM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

 

Hi mate,

Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really good at reading 
the sun (thinking that excludes most of us), or they've got a finely-tuned 
magnet embedded somewhere on their person that they can feel the pull of. 
Thinking of it, that would be pretty cool, just sayin'!

 

Yes, depth perception is a pain! My wife's is pretty rubbish, and she actually 
injures herself far more than I do. I would even go so far as to say that 
people with partial vision probably have a harder time than those of us with 
none, because we don't try and use what we don't got, and we don't get harried 
for looking like we can see stuff, when that's not the case.

 

How do you manage with your lack of depth? I'm guessing you take steps to 
ensure your desk or the floor around it aren't swimming with drinks, or your 
stuff is all over the floor because you booted your desk too hard?

 

Also, give your doggy a stroke from me! :)

 

Take care,

 

Chris Norman

 

 

 

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 04:27, Sharon S mailto:ko...@areujoking.com> > wrote:

Hi all, I’ve been reading this topic with interest. I’m only new to this list 
so haven’t posted before. I joined the list to find out more about accessible 
games. I have had vision problems since I was six and it has slowly gone down 
hill from there. Now I’m getting close to forty and I have very little sight. 
On a good day I can see shapes but no real detail. Most of the time I am fine 
with my directions, that is unless I stop where I was going to talk to someone 
and turn around a bit then it takes me a bit to work out in which direction I 
should be going. This has been helped with the assistance of a seeing eye dog. 
At the moment I am between dogs and because of the virus I’m not going out 
much. I am also pretty confident with my white cane in areas I know well but 
put me on a new route and there will be trouble.

 

One thing I have noticed lately is my depth perception is totally gone. For 
example at the office where I volunteer the desk is big and white. I can see 
the desk as I walk up to it but I can’t judge how far away it is so I either 
run into it or totally miss putting things on it. I don’t recall having this 
problem when I was younger however I was always short sighted so don’t know if 
that has anything to do with it

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Hi mate,
Not sure anyone can know where north is, unless they're really good at
reading the sun (thinking that excludes most of us), or they've got a
finely-tuned magnet embedded somewhere on their person that they can feel
the pull of. Thinking of it, that would be pretty cool, just sayin'!

Yes, depth perception is a pain! My wife's is pretty rubbish, and she
actually injures herself far more than I do. I would even go so far as to
say that people with partial vision probably have a harder time than those
of us with none, because we don't try and use what we don't got, and we
don't get harried for looking like we can see stuff, when that's not the
case.

How do you manage with your lack of depth? I'm guessing you take steps to
ensure your desk or the floor around it aren't swimming with drinks, or
your stuff is all over the floor because you booted your desk too hard?

Also, give your doggy a stroke from me! :)

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 04:27, Sharon S  wrote:

> Hi all, I’ve been reading this topic with interest. I’m only new to this
> list so haven’t posted before. I joined the list to find out more about
> accessible games. I have had vision problems since I was six and it has
> slowly gone down hill from there. Now I’m getting close to forty and I have
> very little sight. On a good day I can see shapes but no real detail. Most
> of the time I am fine with my directions, that is unless I stop where I was
> going to talk to someone and turn around a bit then it takes me a bit to
> work out in which direction I should be going. This has been helped with
> the assistance of a seeing eye dog. At the moment I am between dogs and
> because of the virus I’m not going out much. I am also pretty confident
> with my white cane in areas I know well but put me on a new route and there
> will be trouble.
>
>
>
> One thing I have noticed lately is my depth perception is totally gone.
> For example at the office where I volunteer the desk is big and white. I
> can see the desk as I walk up to it but I can’t judge how far away it is so
> I either run into it or totally miss putting things on it. I don’t recall
> having this problem when I was younger however I was always short sighted
> so don’t know if that has anything to do with it.
>
>
>
> Now for the original topic, I have no idea about the directions of a
> compass when out and about. Once I came out of a shopping mall a different
> way then I went in so had no idea where I should be going and neither did
> my dog. So I put my GPS on for help, I put in where I wanted to be and it
> then told me to walk a certain distance north. I had no idea at all which
> way was North so I ended up just having to pick a direction and go. Once I
> was on my way the GPS then gave me directions as turn left or turn right
> which helped me allot more.
>
>
>
> At my scout hall however I could tell you which way was North because we
> worked it out years ago with a compass and each point is directed towards a
> wall of the hall. For example, North is the lake side of the hall, East is
> the kitchen, South is the road side and west is the cupboards. However,
> that only works while we are in the hall, take me outside and turn me
> slightly and I will give you the wrong direction.
>
>
>
> Well better go now. I have heaps of emails to catch up on and my tummy is
> saying it is time for lunch.
>
>
>
> Talk later.
>
> From Shaz.
>
> Canberra, Australia.
>
>
>
> *From:* blind-gamers@groups.io  *On Behalf Of *Chris
> Norman via groups.io
> *Sent:* Monday, 3 August 2020 12:43 AM
> *To:* blind-gamers@groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?
>
>
>
> Yeah, it's changed my outlook too.
>
>
>
> I've been sending the odd message from this thread onto my wife as well.
> She's partial in one eye, and has recently gotten dead interested in all
> this stuff, since Google Maps took us alongside a canal late at night, and
> she suddenly realised her lovely vision she'd relied and prided herself on
> wasn't worth squat when faced with darkness she couldn't penetrate, near
> water she couldn't swim in, with nobody she could rely on, other than a
> husband she wasn't entirely happy with relinquishing navigational control
> to.
>
>
>
> Needless to say, she's now had cane training under blindfold.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 05:06, Christy S  wrote:
>
> From a purely analytical standpoint I'm fascinated too.
>
>
>
> I think the main point though is, if someone's brain doesn't know how to
> grasp a concept due to wiring from very early on for whatever reason, it
> can't just be taught.

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Sharon S]

Hi all, I’ve been reading this topic with interest. I’m only new to this list 
so haven’t posted before. I joined the list to find out more about accessible 
games. I have had vision problems since I was six and it has slowly gone down 
hill from there. Now I’m getting close to forty and I have very little sight. 
On a good day I can see shapes but no real detail. Most of the time I am fine 
with my directions, that is unless I stop where I was going to talk to someone 
and turn around a bit then it takes me a bit to work out in which direction I 
should be going. This has been helped with the assistance of a seeing eye dog. 
At the moment I am between dogs and because of the virus I’m not going out 
much. I am also pretty confident with my white cane in areas I know well but 
put me on a new route and there will be trouble.

 

One thing I have noticed lately is my depth perception is totally gone. For 
example at the office where I volunteer the desk is big and white. I can see 
the desk as I walk up to it but I can’t judge how far away it is so I either 
run into it or totally miss putting things on it. I don’t recall having this 
problem when I was younger however I was always short sighted so don’t know if 
that has anything to do with it.

 

Now for the original topic, I have no idea about the directions of a compass 
when out and about. Once I came out of a shopping mall a different way then I 
went in so had no idea where I should be going and neither did my dog. So I put 
my GPS on for help, I put in where I wanted to be and it then told me to walk a 
certain distance north. I had no idea at all which way was North so I ended up 
just having to pick a direction and go. Once I was on my way the GPS then gave 
me directions as turn left or turn right which helped me allot more.

 

At my scout hall however I could tell you which way was North because we worked 
it out years ago with a compass and each point is directed towards a wall of 
the hall. For example, North is the lake side of the hall, East is the kitchen, 
South is the road side and west is the cupboards. However, that only works 
while we are in the hall, take me outside and turn me slightly and I will give 
you the wrong direction.

 

Well better go now. I have heaps of emails to catch up on and my tummy is 
saying it is time for lunch.

 

Talk later.

>From Shaz.

Canberra, Australia.

 

From: blind-gamers@groups.io  On Behalf Of Chris Norman 
via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 3 August 2020 12:43 AM
To: blind-gamers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

 

Yeah, it's changed my outlook too.

 

I've been sending the odd message from this thread onto my wife as well. She's 
partial in one eye, and has recently gotten dead interested in all this stuff, 
since Google Maps took us alongside a canal late at night, and she suddenly 
realised her lovely vision she'd relied and prided herself on wasn't worth 
squat when faced with darkness she couldn't penetrate, near water she couldn't 
swim in, with nobody she could rely on, other than a husband she wasn't 
entirely happy with relinquishing navigational control to.

 

Needless to say, she's now had cane training under blindfold.

 

Take care,

 

Chris Norman

 

 

 

On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 05:06, Christy S mailto:christys1...@gmail.com> > wrote:

>From a purely analytical standpoint I'm fascinated too. 

 

I think the main point though is, if someone's brain doesn't know how to grasp 
a concept due to wiring from very early on for whatever reason, it can't just 
be taught. This is important, because if more people understood this, I think 
there would be a lot less judgmental attitudes in the blind community toward 
those who can't do spatial concepts. I point at myself saying this, because 
I've at least thought similar things like sheesh, didn't get you good training? 
Or WTF, how do you get lost in a kitchen? With a better understanding now I 
know better. So while games or other software might very well help with things 
like say, being able to memorize turns for those who have a hard time mapping 
something in their brain, it's not going to be able to just fix the issue. Now 
of course, if the real issue actually was a lack of training, or severe 
sheltering to the point of never being able to learn something and I know these 
things do happen, then you've got a completely different thing going on.

 

I do love this discussion, though.

 

On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io <http://groups.io>  wrote:

That's really interesting! 

 

It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. A 
developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn fascinating! 
I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about your experiences with 
things.

 

As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if you feel 
this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material re

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Yeah, it's changed my outlook too.

I've been sending the odd message from this thread onto my wife as well.
She's partial in one eye, and has recently gotten dead interested in all
this stuff, since Google Maps took us alongside a canal late at night, and
she suddenly realised her lovely vision she'd relied and prided herself on
wasn't worth squat when faced with darkness she couldn't penetrate, near
water she couldn't swim in, with nobody she could rely on, other than a
husband she wasn't entirely happy with relinquishing navigational control
to.

Needless to say, she's now had cane training under blindfold.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 05:06, Christy S  wrote:

> From a purely analytical standpoint I'm fascinated too.
>
>
> I think the main point though is, if someone's brain doesn't know how to
> grasp a concept due to wiring from very early on for whatever reason, it
> can't just be taught. This is important, because if more people understood
> this, I think there would be a lot less judgmental attitudes in the blind
> community toward those who can't do spatial concepts. I point at myself
> saying this, because I've at least thought similar things like sheesh,
> didn't get you good training? Or WTF, how do you get lost in a kitchen?
> With a better understanding now I know better. So while games or other
> software might very well help with things like say, being able to memorize
> turns for those who have a hard time mapping something in their brain, it's
> not going to be able to just fix the issue. Now of course, if the real
> issue actually was a lack of training, or severe sheltering to the point of
> never being able to learn something and I know these things do happen, then
> you've got a completely different thing going on.
>
>
> I do love this discussion, though.
>
>
> On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>
> That's really interesting!
>
> It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. A
> developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn
> fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about your
> experiences with things.
>
> As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if you
> feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material
> recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was safe to
> hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through glass?
>
> I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met another
> blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd heard of
> where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box in broad
> daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone box were
> transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp why you
> wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how anyone who
> can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in the end, but it
> strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would probably know that
> instinctively, because kids are obviously going to tell you how they caught
> you.
>
> Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going back
> on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I think it was
> you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head.
>
> To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is any
> way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get a handle
> on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film are the
> answer.
>
> What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce a
> system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual map of a
> given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on your computer,
> but would that even help? Or would that just over complicate things?
>
> The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like heavy
> traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying helicopters, high
> winds, that kind of thing.
>
> MMM, the mind races!
>
> Take care,
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges  wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>> I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to
>> how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me to
>> wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do something, she
>> didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even when I
>> didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games,
>> because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual spots
>> for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I
>> would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my
>> back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that, while
>> I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off
>> from physical activity and exploration. 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Wow, no more questions, your honour. That is fascinating though!

I never realised that a person couldn't tell when they'd made a dramatic
turn to the point they'd feel like they were always travelling straight. I
mean, I've done it with gradual turns, but yeah, what you describe is a
whole new kind of fascinating.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 06:57, Jessica Hodges  wrote:

> hmm, that's a bit of a complicated question. I know general things, for
> example that glass is see through, but I'm not good at knowing the affects
> of light, shadow, angle, things like that, so I very well might have cast
> shadows, I don't remember by now.
>
> I'm not sure about computerized maps. I've never seen that really done
> well but I'd be curious. The same goes for game ideas. Tactile maps really,
> really confuse me, because I don't especially grasp the differences in
> point of view from what's on paper to where I am and what I'm experiencing.
> I can be looking at a map, then,  but it doesn't really explain,
> necessarily, what I'm going to see/run into, and I get confused because I'm
> somewhere else. Additionally, I get sort of overwhelmed/bogged down with
> the information present, so many lines and directions and labels and... As
> a result, they don't admittedly end up helping much. Simple maps still
> frustrate me as well, mostly due to the point of view issue discussed
> above. I suspect it has to do with not having a basis in things a lot of
> people would deem simple and intuitive, but perhaps I'm over representing
> things, there. Though I am curious about the ways a computer could change
> this, I suspect I'd run into some of the same problems, particularly with
> scale and point of view.
>
> Yes, it was me who talked about reversing things. I can reverse directions
> ok, if given steps or whatever, but I don't always understand how doing
> something can get you back where you began. This is likely complicated by
> the fact that, to me, it always feels like I'm walking straight, I have no
> real basis for where I am vs. where I was vs. where I need to be, so I
> never see how all the pieces fit together.
>
>
> A practical example. Because of the way that my brain processes sounds,
> all traffic, especially heavy traffic, always sounds like its coming at me
> from an angle, no matter where I'm standing. This makes lining up to cross
> streets very difficult. If I cross, and end up going diagonally, I'll end
> up somewhere and, because of the way that my mind works, have no clue where
> I'm at in relation to where I need to be and I end up hopelessly lost with
> no basis for really finding myself again, though it was a little mistake.
>
> I hope what I've said makes sense. Feel free to write on or off list if
> you have more questions/commentary.
>
> Jessica.
>
>
>
>
> On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>
> That's really interesting!
>
> It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. A
> developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn
> fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about your
> experiences with things.
>
> As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if you
> feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material
> recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was safe to
> hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through glass?
>
> I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met another
> blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd heard of
> where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box in broad
> daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone box were
> transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp why you
> wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how anyone who
> can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in the end, but it
> strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would probably know that
> instinctively, because kids are obviously going to tell you how they caught
> you.
>
> Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going back
> on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I think it was
> you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head.
>
> To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is any
> way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get a handle
> on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film are the
> answer.
>
> What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce a
> system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual map of a
> given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on your computer,
> but would that even help? Or would that just over complicate things?
>
> The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like heavy
> traffic, or road 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Oh man, I have literally no idea. I said it would be interesting, not that
I'd have the first clue about how to go about doing it haha.

It's rubbish that your research will get cancelled though! I'm sorry
that'll affect your income, as well as killing of potentially invaluable
research.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 04:41, Shaun Everiss  wrote:

> True criss but have you thought about the work involved.
>
> I do research twice a year for a local university.
>
> Sadly thats mostly international scholarship students.
>
> Firstly you need funding and even before the covid thing funding for
> various projects was getting slashed a load.
>
> Next you need someone to program the super computers and book time, and
> thats not that easy.
>
> Most of this is done in matlab and no that aint even accessible for us to
> do.
>
> But even if it were and the data were accessible, you need someone to do
> the reports and analise it all you can't just stick them in like usb pen
> drives, fire it up, shoot a few pulses and output the data as a text report
> of everything.
>
> Even with the eeg brain data report, its all graphs and actual complex
> programs, pluss at least 2-6 months planning per project.
>
> I am in a project which has been going for the last 2 years with a really
> huge dataset, before projects that were smaller took a couple months to
> setup.
>
> This one is huge, usually its a 2 hour slog, or even 1 hour slog all
> connected.
>
> I have been pulling 3-6 hour shifts on this project and while the pay is
> excelent being hooked up and concentrating on the tasks to do is just quite
> hard.
>
> I have worked 6 hours in total at weird times of the day on this thing and
> still there is a load to do.
>
> If the person doing it didn't have to rush back to india just before
> lockdown I'd still be working.
>
> As it is and as its all touch related, the project is stopped and most
> likely all international research of this sort will probably be killed off
> now.
>
> That sadly is my biggest income source.
>
> But yeah, if you could find a hospital or place with the funds and
> everything, and could pay round 100 bucks an hour or whatever it was you
> were prepaired to pay out, then yeah I'm in.
>
> I've been a test pilot of systems with eeg before but yeah.
>
> If it ever gets to the point this can be done then yeah I am willing to
> give it a go but well it does cost for transport and various things
> including whatever the studdy is but whatever if you ever decide to do
> something like this or know of someone that wants to do this, then I am
> always ready for another contract.
>
> I have just finnished a couple local and remote ones and while I do have a
> couple possible contracts I always have openings for more work.
>
> Obviously since this would be a monster project it would need a bit of
> planning but whatever.
>
> You have apotential employee right there, even if this is all it is, email
> mee off list if you ever set this and we can chat then.
>
>
>
> On 2/08/2020 10:44 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
>
> MMM, getting a bunch of test subjects together, and renting some time in
> an MRI would be fascinating.
>
> Hook people up to an electroencephalograph while they recount the route to
> their local shop, or listen to instructions on how to get to the nearest
> toilet might be illuminating.
>
> Take care,
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:57, Liam Erven  wrote:
>
>> I agree. I think wiring or neural connections have a lot to do with a
>> lot more than we consider.
>>
>>
>> On 7/31/2020 9:25 AM, Jessica Hodges wrote:
>> > Hello.
>> > I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to
>> > how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me
>> > to wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do
>> > something, she didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do
>> > things even when I didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my
>> > favorite childhood games, because I've always liked small places and I
>> > liked finding unusual spots for me and my three brothers, (two more
>> > would come later) to hide. I would often wrestle with them, slide down
>> > the stairs with them on my back, and other assorted things, so I think
>> > its safe to say that, while I tended towards staying in and reading
>> > books, that I was not cut off from physical activity and exploration.
>> > And yet, when I was younger, I'd get lost even on my own block. My
>> > mother says, when I was really small, I even had trouble with getting
>> > off the porch. Thankfully by now I have progressed, (mostly,) to the
>> > point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm really confused, that
>> > wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, don't understand how
>> > going around a block gets you to the same point you started from
>> > because you turned and had to walk along streets in the process, and I
>> > did, just the other week, get 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Jessica Hodges]

hmm, that's a bit of a complicated question. I know general things, for 
example that glass is see through, but I'm not good at knowing the 
affects of light, shadow, angle, things like that, so I very well might 
have cast shadows, I don't remember by now.


I'm not sure about computerized maps. I've never seen that really done 
well but I'd be curious. The same goes for game ideas. Tactile maps 
really, really confuse me, because I don't especially grasp the 
differences in point of view from what's on paper to where I am and what 
I'm experiencing. I can be looking at a map, then,  but it doesn't 
really explain, necessarily, what I'm going to see/run into, and I get 
confused because I'm somewhere else. Additionally, I get sort of 
overwhelmed/bogged down with the information present, so many lines and 
directions and labels and... As a result, they don't admittedly end up 
helping much. Simple maps still frustrate me as well, mostly due to the 
point of view issue discussed above. I suspect it has to do with not 
having a basis in things a lot of people would deem simple and 
intuitive, but perhaps I'm over representing things, there. Though I am 
curious about the ways a computer could change this, I suspect I'd run 
into some of the same problems, particularly with scale and point of view.


Yes, it was me who talked about reversing things. I can reverse 
directions ok, if given steps or whatever, but I don't always understand 
how doing something can get you back where you began. This is likely 
complicated by the fact that, to me, it always feels like I'm walking 
straight, I have no real basis for where I am vs. where I was vs. where 
I need to be, so I never see how all the pieces fit together.



A practical example. Because of the way that my brain processes sounds, 
all traffic, especially heavy traffic, always sounds like its coming at 
me from an angle, no matter where I'm standing. This makes lining up to 
cross streets very difficult. If I cross, and end up going diagonally, 
I'll end up somewhere and, because of the way that my mind works, have 
no clue where I'm at in relation to where I need to be and I end up 
hopelessly lost with no basis for really finding myself again, though it 
was a little mistake.


I hope what I've said makes sense. Feel free to write on or off list if 
you have more questions/commentary.


Jessica.




On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

That's really interesting!

It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. 
A developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn 
fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about 
your experiences with things.


As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if 
you feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material 
recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was 
safe to hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through 
glass?


I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met 
another blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd 
heard of where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box 
in broad daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone 
box were transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp 
why you wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how 
anyone who can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in 
the end, but it strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would 
probably know that instinctively, because kids are obviously going to 
tell you how they caught you.


Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going 
back on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I 
think it was you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head.


To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is 
any way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get 
a handle on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film 
are the answer.


What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce 
a system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual 
map of a given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on 
your computer, but would that even help? Or would that just over 
complicate things?


The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like 
heavy traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying 
helicopters, high winds, that kind of thing.


MMM, the mind races!

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges > wrote:


Hello.
I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is
tied to
how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged
me to
wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do
something, she
didn't tell 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Christy S]

From a purely analytical standpoint I'm fascinated too.


I think the main point though is, if someone's brain doesn't know how to 
grasp a concept due to wiring from very early on for whatever reason, it 
can't just be taught. This is important, because if more people 
understood this, I think there would be a lot less judgmental attitudes 
in the blind community toward those who can't do spatial concepts. I 
point at myself saying this, because I've at least thought similar 
things like sheesh, didn't get you good training? Or WTF, how do you get 
lost in a kitchen? With a better understanding now I know better. So 
while games or other software might very well help with things like say, 
being able to memorize turns for those who have a hard time mapping 
something in their brain, it's not going to be able to just fix the 
issue. Now of course, if the real issue actually was a lack of training, 
or severe sheltering to the point of never being able to learn something 
and I know these things do happen, then you've got a completely 
different thing going on.



I do love this discussion, though.


On 8/1/2020 5:41 PM, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

That's really interesting!

It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. 
A developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn 
fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about 
your experiences with things.


As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if 
you feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material 
recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was 
safe to hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through 
glass?


I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met 
another blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd 
heard of where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box 
in broad daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone 
box were transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp 
why you wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how 
anyone who can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in 
the end, but it strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would 
probably know that instinctively, because kids are obviously going to 
tell you how they caught you.


Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going 
back on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I 
think it was you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head.


To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is 
any way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get 
a handle on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film 
are the answer.


What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce 
a system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual 
map of a given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on 
your computer, but would that even help? Or would that just over 
complicate things?


The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like 
heavy traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying 
helicopters, high winds, that kind of thing.


MMM, the mind races!

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges > wrote:


Hello.
I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is
tied to
how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged
me to
wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do
something, she
didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even
when I
didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games,
because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual
spots
for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I
would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my
back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that,
while
I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off
from physical activity and exploration. And yet, when I was
younger, I'd
get lost even on my own block. My mother says, when I was really
small,
I even had trouble with getting off the porch. Thankfully by now I
have
progressed, (mostly,) to the point that, a lot of the time, unless
I'm
really confused, that wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example,
don't understand how going around a block gets you to the same
point you
started from because you turned and had to walk along streets in the
process, and I did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner
just
a block away where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I
managed to do that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Shaun Everiss]

True criss but have you thought about the work involved.

I do research twice a year for a local university.

Sadly thats mostly international scholarship students.

Firstly you need funding and even before the covid thing funding for 
various projects was getting slashed a load.


Next you need someone to program the super computers and book time, and 
thats not that easy.


Most of this is done in matlab and no that aint even accessible for us 
to do.


But even if it were and the data were accessible, you need someone to do 
the reports and analise it all you can't just stick them in like usb pen 
drives, fire it up, shoot a few pulses and output the data as a text 
report of everything.


Even with the eeg brain data report, its all graphs and actual complex 
programs, pluss at least 2-6 months planning per project.


I am in a project which has been going for the last 2 years with a 
really huge dataset, before projects that were smaller took a couple 
months to setup.


This one is huge, usually its a 2 hour slog, or even 1 hour slog all 
connected.


I have been pulling 3-6 hour shifts on this project and while the pay is 
excelent being hooked up and concentrating on the tasks to do is just 
quite hard.


I have worked 6 hours in total at weird times of the day on this thing 
and still there is a load to do.


If the person doing it didn't have to rush back to india just before 
lockdown I'd still be working.


As it is and as its all touch related, the project is stopped and most 
likely all international research of this sort will probably be killed 
off now.


That sadly is my biggest income source.

But yeah, if you could find a hospital or place with the funds and 
everything, and could pay round 100 bucks an hour or whatever it was you 
were prepaired to pay out, then yeah I'm in.


I've been a test pilot of systems with eeg before but yeah.

If it ever gets to the point this can be done then yeah I am willing to 
give it a go but well it does cost for transport and various things 
including whatever the studdy is but whatever if you ever decide to do 
something like this or know of someone that wants to do this, then I am 
always ready for another contract.


I have just finnished a couple local and remote ones and while I do have 
a couple possible contracts I always have openings for more work.


Obviously since this would be a monster project it would need a bit of 
planning but whatever.


You have apotential employee right there, even if this is all it is, 
email mee off list if you ever set this and we can chat then.




On 2/08/2020 10:44 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:
MMM, getting a bunch of test subjects together, and renting some time 
in an MRI would be fascinating.


Hook people up to an electroencephalograph while they recount the 
route to their local shop, or listen to instructions on how to get to 
the nearest toilet might be illuminating.


Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:57, Liam Erven > wrote:


I agree. I think wiring or neural connections have a lot to do with a
lot more than we consider.


On 7/31/2020 9:25 AM, Jessica Hodges wrote:
> Hello.
> I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is
tied to
> how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother
encouraged me
> to wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do
> something, she didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me
to do
> things even when I didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my
> favorite childhood games, because I've always liked small places
and I
> liked finding unusual spots for me and my three brothers, (two more
> would come later) to hide. I would often wrestle with them,
slide down
> the stairs with them on my back, and other assorted things, so I
think
> its safe to say that, while I tended towards staying in and reading
> books, that I was not cut off from physical activity and
exploration.
> And yet, when I was younger, I'd get lost even on my own block. My
> mother says, when I was really small, I even had trouble with
getting
> off the porch. Thankfully by now I have progressed, (mostly,) to
the
> point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm really confused, that
> wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, don't understand
how
> going around a block gets you to the same point you started from
> because you turned and had to walk along streets in the process,
and I
> did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just a block
away
> where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I managed to do
> that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's quite where
> the  connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it has
to do,
> more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or the
lack
> thereof, frankly, 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

MMM, getting a bunch of test subjects together, and renting some time in an
MRI would be fascinating.

Hook people up to an electroencephalograph while they recount the route to
their local shop, or listen to instructions on how to get to the nearest
toilet might be illuminating.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:57, Liam Erven  wrote:

> I agree. I think wiring or neural connections have a lot to do with a
> lot more than we consider.
>
>
> On 7/31/2020 9:25 AM, Jessica Hodges wrote:
> > Hello.
> > I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to
> > how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me
> > to wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do
> > something, she didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do
> > things even when I didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my
> > favorite childhood games, because I've always liked small places and I
> > liked finding unusual spots for me and my three brothers, (two more
> > would come later) to hide. I would often wrestle with them, slide down
> > the stairs with them on my back, and other assorted things, so I think
> > its safe to say that, while I tended towards staying in and reading
> > books, that I was not cut off from physical activity and exploration.
> > And yet, when I was younger, I'd get lost even on my own block. My
> > mother says, when I was really small, I even had trouble with getting
> > off the porch. Thankfully by now I have progressed, (mostly,) to the
> > point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm really confused, that
> > wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, don't understand how
> > going around a block gets you to the same point you started from
> > because you turned and had to walk along streets in the process, and I
> > did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just a block away
> > where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I managed to do
> > that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's quite where
> > the  connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it has to do,
> > more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or the lack
> > thereof, frankly, won't fix that.
> > I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it
> > didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy person. :)
> > Jessica.
> >
> > On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
> >> Hi Chris,
> >> People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never
> >> grasp that!
> >> As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have
> >> then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting
> >> yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you
> >> regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the
> >> bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to adapt
> >> life so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced
> >> by others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to
> >> think that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because
> >> of society's expectations.
> >> As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really
> >> the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs
> >> would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because
> >> I'm actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a
> >> gun, I might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic
> >> shooting a long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming
> >> pool, you might get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be
> >> no swimming!
> >> My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever
> >> quite knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born).
> >> My mum has difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now,
> >> so you can imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a
> >> kid. In fact, I always remember there were arguments between the
> >> school and my mum as to who should be teaching me basic practical
> >> skills (like dealing with different types of fastenings, using hooks,
> >> working out which is the right way to put clothes on, handling money
> >> and so on).
> >> I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a
> >> bit harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed
> >> to have a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations
> >> have gone to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on
> >> chairs due to the risk that they'll snap from underneath us!
> >> Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people
> >> could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went
> >> to boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that
> >> would have been out of the question anyway.
> >> Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound
> >> really 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

That's really interesting!

It's challenged my - admittedly narrow-minded - way of seeing things. A
developmental psychologist I am not, but I find this stuff so damn
fascinating! I'd love to sit and have a drink with you, and hear about your
experiences with things.

As a point of personal interest (and feel free to reply privately if you
feel this is getting too off-topic), how's your grasp of material
recognition? I mean, when you had to hide, did you know what it was safe to
hide behind, without casting a shadow, or being seen through glass?

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who has never met another
blind person other than me. I was telling her about a case I'd heard of
where a blind couple got done for having sex in a phone box in broad
daylight, because they didn't realise the walls of said phone box were
transparent. She thought it was hilarious, and couldn't grasp why you
wouldn't know glass was transparent. That got me wondering how anyone who
can't see would know that stuff. Obviously you pick up in the end, but it
strikes me that an avid hide and seek player would probably know that
instinctively, because kids are obviously going to tell you how they caught
you.

Also, with the routes thing, do you mean you have no concept of going back
on yourself, block routes, and reverse direction of travel? I think it was
you who said they coudln't reverse routes in your head.

To bring this whole thing back to games somewhat, I wonder if there is any
way that a game system could be developed to help blind people get a handle
on this sort of thing, or whether tactile maps or german film are the
answer.

What Do you feel would help you? It would be fairly trivial to produce a
system where a mobility instructor could create a to-scale virtual map of a
given route, that you could scrutinise at your leisure on your computer,
but would that even help? Or would that just over complicate things?

The system could be extended to introduce certain variables, like heavy
traffic, or road works making a ton of noise, low-flying helicopters, high
winds, that kind of thing.

MMM, the mind races!

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 15:55, Jessica Hodges  wrote:

> Hello.
> I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to
> how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me to
> wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do something, she
> didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even when I
> didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games,
> because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual spots
> for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I
> would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my
> back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that, while
> I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off
> from physical activity and exploration. And yet, when I was younger, I'd
> get lost even on my own block. My mother says, when I was really small,
> I even had trouble with getting off the porch. Thankfully by now I have
> progressed, (mostly,) to the point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm
> really confused, that wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example,
> don't understand how going around a block gets you to the same point you
> started from because you turned and had to walk along streets in the
> process, and I did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just
> a block away where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I
> managed to do that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's
> quite where the  connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it
> has to do, more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or
> the lack thereof, frankly, won't fix that.
> I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it
> didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy person. :)
> Jessica.
>
> On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
> > Hi Chris,
> > People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never
> > grasp that!
> > As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have
> > then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting
> > yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you
> > regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the
> > bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to adapt life
> > so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by
> > others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to think
> > that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because of
> > society's expectations.
> > As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really
> > the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs
> > would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Hi mate,
It's really bad that seemingly so many people have such little support. I
mean, I'm unreasonably lucky in the support I had, although ironically I
think that stemmed from an intended lack thereof.

When the doctors told my Mum I was blind, their "silver lining" was "well,
MRS. Norman, they make great piano tuners". My Mum hates being told what
she can and cannot do, and promptly told the doctors (I'm quoting): "He'll
be a fucking jigalow before he becomes a piano tuner".

Then my grandparents - who would have been the mollycoddling sort - told
her how she was being too harsh on me, making me get my own drinks ETC, so
she told them that she'd not be around forever, so that was just
tough titty.

Thirdly, the German teacher who used to come to see me (Mum and Dad were in
the army, based in Germany), told Mum that it was great that she and my Dad
included me in the family, as - according to him - many German families who
had blind parents sent them away to special homes, and told the family they
were still born.

My mum is a seriously fierce lady, who won't hear any slight against her
kids, and that was it. I wasn't going to be a blind kid, I was going to
bloody well have the same opportunities as other children my age, and I was
going to be a person who is blind, rather than a blind person.

So yes, I have done painting, and I can handwrite, albeit pretty terribly.
I could see a little when I was younger, so I guess I had yet another
unfair advantage over many of my blind peers, although now that's all gone
black, so I'm riding the blind boat my friends! :)

Also, because Dad was away a lot with work (first the army and then with
Securicore), he really made the most of it with us when he came back, so
we'd build fires with him, and sit around them talking and toasting
marshmallows, or whittling sticks with pen knives, or bike riding, or
climbing trees. Me and my sister are proper little tear-aways!

With the cutting and burning, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying
you should torch your kids to teach them that fire is scary, but similarly,
if you tell them the metal stick they're toasting their marshmallow on will
transfer heat and get hot, and they touch it anyways, they should
absolutely be allowed to do that. Honestly, it'll hurt for 15 seconds,
maybe require being run under hot water, but it's not life threatening, and
the lesson is a lasting one. Same applies with blades. A Stanley blade will
make a flesh wound, but if that doesn't get the message through, a wood axe
will take your finger off. It's all a question of balance.

Not sure about more sensible folks than I, but I simply cannot learn from
other peoples' mistakes. You know when you go to a restaurant, and they say
"Please be careful, the plate is hot"? You can guarantee, as soon as I
reckon they're out of sight, I'm going to touch that damn plate to see if
they're right.

Saying about not being mollycoddled, but instead your mum not really
knowing what to do with you, that's the third category that I tend to
forget about, because fortunately, it's less common than overprotective
parents. It's hardly surprising that your fine motor skills are shot if you
weren't doing basic kid stuff like Pat A Cake, or playing with dollies (I
thought action man was boring, and playing dress up was far more fun) to
get your ittle fingers ready for zips and shirt buttons, and them stupid
button flies that are so prevalent nowadays. All play is useful play, and
you know the result of not having that interaction.

You're absolutely right about kids not being able to sit on chairs.
Satirical, but probably not a million miles from the truth! I've noticed
that the kids play park opposite my house now has safety chains on the
swings, so kids can't trap their fingers when swinging. I'm sorry - lots of
people say I'm harsh for this - but I'd much rather kids get blood blisters
from trapping their fingers in a swing chain, than rip a finger off because
they don't have the proper respect for stuff like that when seeing their
first bicycle chain, or - god forbid - a food processor for the first time.

Anyways... Time to stop philosophising. If only I liked children: I could
go work with them, and terrorise their parents into breeding loads of
little blind rambos, to rock around the neighbourhoods clicking their
tongues and setting fire to stuff from the comfort of their skateboards
haha.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 11:16, Damien Garwood  wrote:

> Hi Chris,
> People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never
> grasp that!
> As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have
> then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting yourself.
> Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you regardless of
> how you get around, so you may as well just bite the bullet. It's sad
> when having a disability and being able to adapt life so you can attempt
> to live (so-called) normally, is 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Liam Erven]

I agree. I think wiring or neural connections have a lot to do with a 
lot more than we consider.



On 7/31/2020 9:25 AM, Jessica Hodges wrote:

Hello.
I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to 
how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me 
to wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do 
something, she didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do 
things even when I didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my 
favorite childhood games, because I've always liked small places and I 
liked finding unusual spots for me and my three brothers, (two more 
would come later) to hide. I would often wrestle with them, slide down 
the stairs with them on my back, and other assorted things, so I think 
its safe to say that, while I tended towards staying in and reading 
books, that I was not cut off from physical activity and exploration. 
And yet, when I was younger, I'd get lost even on my own block. My 
mother says, when I was really small, I even had trouble with getting 
off the porch. Thankfully by now I have progressed, (mostly,) to the 
point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm really confused, that 
wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, don't understand how 
going around a block gets you to the same point you started from 
because you turned and had to walk along streets in the process, and I 
did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just a block away 
where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I managed to do 
that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's quite where 
the  connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it has to do, 
more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or the lack 
thereof, frankly, won't fix that.
I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it 
didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy person. :)

Jessica.

On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi Chris,
People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never 
grasp that!
As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have 
then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting 
yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you 
regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the 
bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to adapt 
life so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced 
by others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to 
think that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because 
of society's expectations.
As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really 
the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs 
would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because 
I'm actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a 
gun, I might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic 
shooting a long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming 
pool, you might get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be 
no swimming!
My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever 
quite knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born). 
My mum has difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now, 
so you can imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a 
kid. In fact, I always remember there were arguments between the 
school and my mum as to who should be teaching me basic practical 
skills (like dealing with different types of fastenings, using hooks, 
working out which is the right way to put clothes on, handling money 
and so on).
I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a 
bit harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed 
to have a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations 
have gone to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on 
chairs due to the risk that they'll snap from underneath us!
Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people 
could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went 
to boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that 
would have been out of the question anyway.
Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound 
really awesome, and are games that I would have never even dreamt of 
doing. Just goes to show what's possible with the right support 
network! Bet you're going to tell me you even had a go at writing and 
drawing and painting next!
As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those 
brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that 
correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone because of 
my fine motor skills (or lack thereof).

Cheers,
Damien.

On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

Hi,
I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff 
too 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Jessica Hodges]

Hello.
I would challenge, a little, the notion that mental mapping is tied to 
how much activity someone has had growing up. My mother encouraged me to 
wander, to play outside, sledding, etc. If I wanted to do something, she 
didn't tell me no, and she frequently pushed me to do things even when I 
didn't want to. Hide and seek was one of my favorite childhood games, 
because I've always liked small places and I liked finding unusual spots 
for me and my three brothers, (two more would come later) to hide. I 
would often wrestle with them, slide down the stairs with them on my 
back, and other assorted things, so I think its safe to say that, while 
I tended towards staying in and reading books, that I was not cut off 
from physical activity and exploration. And yet, when I was younger, I'd 
get lost even on my own block. My mother says, when I was really small, 
I even had trouble with getting off the porch. Thankfully by now I have 
progressed, (mostly,) to the point that, a lot of the time, unless I'm 
really confused, that wouldn't be an issue, but I still, for example, 
don't understand how going around a block gets you to the same point you 
started from because you turned and had to walk along streets in the 
process, and I did, just the other week, get lost going to a diner just 
a block away where I needed to cross nothing, (don't ask me how I 
managed to do that, :() Anyhow all that to say, I don't think that's 
quite where the  connection is. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it 
has to do, more than anything, with how the brain is wired. Coddling or 
the lack thereof, frankly, won't fix that.
I hope this ramble of a message has made sense, and beg pardon if it 
didn't, it has been written before breakfast by a very sleepy person. :)

Jessica.

On 7/31/2020 5:16 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi Chris,
People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never 
grasp that!
As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have 
then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting 
yourself. Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you 
regardless of how you get around, so you may as well just bite the 
bullet. It's sad when having a disability and being able to adapt life 
so you can attempt to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by 
others, even in the 21st century. In short, it makes me sick to think 
that a blind person doesn't want to seem or look blind because of 
society's expectations.
As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really 
the physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs 
would hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because I'm 
actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a gun, 
I might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic shooting 
a long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming pool, you 
might get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be no swimming!
My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever 
quite knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born). My 
mum has difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now, so 
you can imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a kid. 
In fact, I always remember there were arguments between the school and 
my mum as to who should be teaching me basic practical skills (like 
dealing with different types of fastenings, using hooks, working out 
which is the right way to put clothes on, handling money and so on).
I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a 
bit harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed 
to have a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations 
have gone to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on 
chairs due to the risk that they'll snap from underneath us!
Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people 
could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went 
to boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that 
would have been out of the question anyway.
Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound 
really awesome, and are games that I would have never even dreamt of 
doing. Just goes to show what's possible with the right support 
network! Bet you're going to tell me you even had a go at writing and 
drawing and painting next!
As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those 
brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that 
correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone because of 
my fine motor skills (or lack thereof).

Cheers,
Damien.

On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

Hi,
I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff 
too well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm 
a bit older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I 
cheerily exchange 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Damien Garwood]

Hi Chris,
People who have the skill of echo location are lucky - I could never 
grasp that!
As for competence versus safety: If you don't use the tools you have 
then you're not going to look competent if you end up hurting yourself. 
Think about it, those who are prejudiced will judge you regardless of 
how you get around, so you may as well just bite the bullet. It's sad 
when having a disability and being able to adapt life so you can attempt 
to live (so-called) normally, is prejudiced by others, even in the 21st 
century. In short, it makes me sick to think that a blind person doesn't 
want to seem or look blind because of society's expectations.
As for physical activities, you could well be right. I wasn't really the 
physical type of child. Even if we went out for a walk my legs would 
hurt (but then Mum recently discovered that's likely because I'm 
actually walking wrong). As for sports? Forget it. Put me near a gun, I 
might be able to shoot a few rounds (yes, I did do acoustic shooting a 
long time ago, but that was it). Put me in a swimming pool, you might 
get thrown around and splashed a lot, but there'll be no swimming!
My mum didn't mollycoddle me. If anything, I don't think she ever quite 
knew what to do with me (she was very young when I was born). My mum has 
difficulties showing and explaining things to me even now, so you can 
imagine how much she struggled even more so when I was a kid. In fact, I 
always remember there were arguments between the school and my mum as to 
who should be teaching me basic practical skills (like dealing with 
different types of fastenings, using hooks, working out which is the 
right way to put clothes on, handling money and so on).
I wouldn't agree with letting kids get cut and burned...That seems a bit 
harsh to me. But I do agree that they should at least be allowed to have 
a go. It doesn't help that UK's health and safety regulations have gone 
to the dogs - soon they probably won't even let us sit on chairs due to 
the risk that they'll snap from underneath us!
Now even I didn't realise hide and seek was a game that blind people 
could play. Then again, I never had brothers or sisters until I went to 
boarding school, and I never had friends as a young child, so that would 
have been out of the question anyway.
Sounds like you had a lot of fun. All those games actually sound really 
awesome, and are games that I would have never even dreamt of doing. 
Just goes to show what's possible with the right support network! Bet 
you're going to tell me you even had a go at writing and drawing and 
painting next!
As for the last part of your message, yup, I fit all three of those 
brackets, unfortunately. It took me seven years (yes, you read that 
correctly, seven) to learn how to use a touchscreen phone because of my 
fine motor skills (or lack thereof).

Cheers,
Damien.

On 31/07/2020 09:31 am, Chris Norman via groups.io wrote:

Hi,
I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff too 
well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm a bit 
older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I cheerily 
exchange looking competent for feeling safer.


In my experience - both through people I know, and people I work with - 
the main difference between people who can mental map "well", and those 
who can "not so well", seems to be the level and complexities of 
physical activities they performed when younger.


For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are: Those who 
approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to get out there 
fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't had the chance to 
think through how awful things could be. Those who sit back and worry 
about it tend to have worried themselves into a frenzy by the time it 
becomes necessary to get up and actually do something. In my experience, 
it's that latter group who struggle.


If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I have to 
work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets their 
kids climb trees, build fires, and run around with their mates. Show 
them how to use tools like knives and drills. Let them get cut, and 
burnt and gather blisters. Seriously, so many people tell me how amazing 
I am. I don't see it personally, I just think I had normal parents who 
weren't afraid to let me take the knocks, but it's a parenting style I 
see less and less these days.


When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted sister 
and her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt that I couldn't 
just stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they learnt that they 
couldn't just stand in front of me and stay still. Mutual respect earnt 
and gained.


If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of teaching 
blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to move quietly, 
what materials are transparent, and which ones only show shadows, how 
much 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Damien Garwood]

Hi Christy,
Yes, I've often been scorned at by people, blind and sighted alike, 
because I'm not skilled in those areas. Remarks like "A four-year-old 
could do this!", or, "Come on now, you're not thick", spring readily to 
mind from teachers and carers, and all kinds of nasty names that I won't 
even repeat here, from other blind people.
As it is, I see my education as a vicious circle. Because my primary, 
mainstream school had no experience teaching those who are blind, it 
more or less got left at raw basics. No mobility, no living skills, no 
computers, no music (My grandad taught me that!), nothing (at least 
until the very end when my mum and a select few of my support workers 
fought my corner). Oh, and nothing that might even sound like it could 
be anything vision-related!
Just basic directions, elementary arithmetic, a lot of spelling, and a 
lot of time cooped up in a "special room" playing with braillers, 
talking calculators and dictionaries and so on.
When I got to secondary, specialist school, it threw them right off seat 
when they realised I knew a lot less than I was meant to for my age! So 
then they start going through a lot of things with me that I'm just not 
getting, and they lose patience and say that I'm being awkward or lazy. 
But then I get diagnosed on the autism spectrum...At that point, there 
were only two members of staff there who knew what that meant - that I'm 
wired differently, not completely unwired!
Ever since then, the local authority is buffeting me around from pillar 
to post. The VI team refers me to the learning difficulties team ("How 
are we supposed to work with someone who is autistic and struggles to 
understand language that works for everyone else?"), and the learning 
difficulties team refer me back to VI ("How are we supposed to work with 
someone who is very eloquent, intelligent, knows his own mind...but 
blind?").
So, of course, 15 years later, I'm still sitting here, buzzing with the 
negative comments and experiences of my education, and letting the word 
"autism" get in the way of everything. After all, to quote my mum, my 
biggest disability is apparently my autism!

And as far as I'm concerned, it stops right here and now.
I share this because I feel it important to outline that, even if you 
have got mental problems (to put it bluntly), doesn't necessarily mean 
you're "stupid". And even if you are, it's a disability, just like other 
disabilities. Let's face it - I'm sure nobody would choose to be 
"stupid", given the choice! As far as I'm concerned, I'm determined to 
learn whatever I can, not for anybody else's benefit, but because I feel 
held back and restricted in my current situation, and I'm "smart" enough 
to know what kind of an impact that's having on my life and my emotional 
and mental wellbeing. I'm slowly gaining the confidence to come out of 
my very tight shell now.
Also, for the benefit of our US members. The mobility and independent 
living facilities (or should I say lack of them) are shocking in the UK 
as compared to the states. I know friends in the US who have been to 
training centres, workshops and a whole inventory of different services 
and facilities, we have only our local councils (and there's still a few 
of those that apparently don't even have VI teams, thankfully mine isn't 
one of them) and the specialist education sector (mainly for kids, or 
adults who have recently lost sight). So, as you can see. Not a lot of 
places to turn to.

Cheers,
Damien.

On 31/07/2020 05:53 am, Christy S wrote:

Damien and others,


I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts depending 
on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me 
thinking about this.



First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is that 
many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a digital 
one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and 
minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of 
detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all intended 
there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you.



I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial awareness, 
however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness as a 
foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that I 
realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the people I 
had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other 
cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I lumped the 
two together in my mind.



I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or mental 
mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping before I 
knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do this 
so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, thus 
helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, when I 
map something 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Hi,
I hear what you're saying about your friend who couldn't find stuff too
well. I used to laugh at blind folks using echo location. Now I'm a bit
older, and don't care as much what people think of me, I cheerily exchange
looking competent for feeling safer.

In my experience - both through people I know, and people I work with - the
main difference between people who can mental map "well", and those who can
"not so well", seems to be the level and complexities of physical
activities they performed when younger.

For adults, this seems to be more how bloody minded they are: Those who
approach their new found blindness as a challenge tend to get out there
fairly quickly, and take the knocks while they haven't had the chance to
think through how awful things could be. Those who sit back and worry about
it tend to have worried themselves into a frenzy by the time it becomes
necessary to get up and actually do something. In my experience, it's that
latter group who struggle.

If any of you have kids, I beg you to not be like the parents I have to
work with, who mollycoddle their kids. Be that parent who lets their kids
climb trees, build fires, and run around with their mates. Show them how to
use tools like knives and drills. Let them get cut, and burnt and gather
blisters. Seriously, so many people tell me how amazing I am. I don't see
it personally, I just think I had normal parents who weren't afraid to let
me take the knocks, but it's a parenting style I see less and less these
days.

When I was younger, I used to play hide and seek with my sighted sister and
her friends. The learning went both ways: I learnt that I couldn't just
stand quietly in the centre of a room, and they learnt that they couldn't
just stand in front of me and stay still. Mutual respect earnt and gained.

If you want games, hide and seek has to be natures best way of teaching
blind and sighted kids a whole multitude of stuff: How to move quietly,
what materials are transparent, and which ones only show shadows, how much
noise a still body makes, how big a space you can fit your body in.

Sadly, I think in this modern world of liability, correct speaking, and
buck-passing, it's far easier to shove kids into a corner and let them play
a computer game than to invent something amazing.

If you're looking for an amazing experience that doesn't involve spacial
awareness, shut down your computer, get yourself a tambourine, and fill it
with crap. Pass it round a circle without making a noise. Every time it
goes around the circle, remove a piece of stuff from it... Make sure
there's balls, and pens, and anything else that will roll inside it. That
will teach you to hold stuff level. A few rounds of that, and you'll not be
confused as to which way you're holding your cup of tea.

Seriously, kids learn from play! It's our job as gamers to make sure as
many of the next generation of blind folks as possible get the best input
when it really counts, before they get old enough to realise their fine
motor skills are shot because they always had the more delicate things done
for them, they can't find anything because they were always guided, and
they have their own deficiencies lodged in their brains because everyone
said "Oh, you can't do that".

There endeth today's sirman! :P

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 05:53, Christy S  wrote:

> Damien and others,
>
>
> I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts depending
> on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me
> thinking about this.
>
>
> First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is that
> many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a digital
> one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and
> minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of
> detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all intended
> there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you.
>
>
> I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial awareness,
> however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness as a
> foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that I
> realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the people I
> had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other
> cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I lumped the
> two together in my mind.
>
>
> I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or mental
> mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping before I
> knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do this
> so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, thus
> helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, when I
> map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature version
> of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit here on my bed
> in the bedroom 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Christy S]

Damien and others,


I know I'm behind on this. I tend to skip over a lot of posts depending 
on subject, but a conversation or two over the last few days got me 
thinking about this.



First thing's first. The reason the game you mentioned said 6:00 is that 
many people refer to directions using the face of a clock. Not a digital 
one that flashes numbers, but an analog clock that has an hour and 
minute hand that goes around a circle. Without going into a lot of 
detail that will probably just confuse you, no insult at all intended 
there, saying an enemy is at 6:00 probably means behind you.



I wanted to touch on the more generalized concept of spatial awareness, 
however. Many, though not all, audio games use spatial awareness as a 
foundation of playing the game. It wasn't until more recently that I 
realized this isn't always practical for some. In the past, the people I 
had run into who had poor spatial concepts or skills also had other 
cognitive issues and I suppose, without even realizing it, I lumped the 
two together in my mind.



I'm one of those who have always had decent spatial awareness, or mental 
mapping as Damien said. In fact, I used the term mental mapping before I 
knew a more correct term. I've always thought the reason I could do this 
so well had to do with having a little sight when I was younger, thus 
helping my brain to develop decently in that area. But really, when I 
map something in my head, it's more like picturing a miniature version 
of the space as I understand it. For example, I can sit here on my bed 
in the bedroom and picture the entire layout of this apartment, 
including where furniture and other large items are. I can even picture 
the basic layout of a house I lived in over 15 years ago, and using that 
mentally plan how I could get from any one point to any second point, in 
either place.



Anyway, I've recently been talking to someone I now consider a good 
friend, and this person struggles a lot with any kind of spatial 
awareness. Their general intelligence, though, is totally fine, with no 
other cognitive difficulties that I'm aware of. Likewise, reading 
Damien's message here, I don't see any hint of cognitive delays and that 
just confirms to me that I need to very much rethink that subconscious 
connection my mind has made. Unfortunately, this is common in the blind 
community. If a blind person isn't out walking everywhere, taking public 
transit all the time etc, they tend to be seen as either dumb or lazy. 
If a person admits they can't figure out on their own how to get to a 
place two blocks away, they're often met with shocked disapproval or 
worse. I mentioned to this friend that the house I used to live in had a 
very large, wide open kitchen as the center of the house and they just 
groaned. In fact, a different friend who sadly has since passed who had 
similar struggles and would get utterly disoriented in that kitchen. She 
could be standing by the fridge, and no matter how many times we had 
shown her before, could not figure out how to get to a bedroom that was 
probably 10 or 15 feet away. Looking back now, my then roommate and I 
could have handled that situation very differently and more gracefully. 
We just could not understand why she wasn't getting it.



The fact is, for whatever reason, there are those who, in addition to or 
because of blindness, literally don't have the mental ability to 
understand spatial concepts. It's not that they don't want to, or that 
they just haven't been taught right, but their brain quite literally 
can't process that kind of information. I think there might be some 
connection between that and never having sight, but it also seems to be 
a lot more complicated than that with certain eye conditions playing a 
part. The best parallel I can think of us for those of us who have no 
memory of sight, having someone try to explain colors to us. We can 
memorize certain things, red is hot for example, but our brains don't 
have the ability to bring what that color looks like into our minds 
because there's no concept of vision or varying colors to build on.



This sounds very similar to what you're dealing with Damien. I would 
never discourage attempting to learn, and if you can find a way that 
works for you, that is totally awesome. If you can't, though, please 
don't think that it means you are stupid or any other negative thing. It 
could simply be that your brain isn't wired to be able to process 
spatial concepts for whatever reason, and you should stick with whatever 
methods work for you.



For those of us who do have that kind of spatial awareness, I really 
hope we can all be understanding and not wave off these types of 
limitations as stupidity or laziness or anything of the sort. I'm 
talking to myself here too. As for those that find these 3d or 2d audio 
games overwhelming and confusing, I hope you can find others that work 
for you. Side scrollers come to mind, as those generally 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

OK, I'd like to clear up a few things for you. They probably won't
improve your life much, but they may shed light on some things.

Compass directions have nothing to do with the sun, they are to do with the
magnetic poles of the earth. If you imagine a lollipop (them balls of
sugary stuff stuck on a stick), the poles are like the stick, if the stick
were sticking all the way through. One point is the north pole, and the
other is the south.

Forget the fact that the earth is spinning and moving about the gaf, north
is always north. Solar and galactic drift don't mean a thing unless you're
in space, in which case I suspect you'd have bigger things to worry about.

The thing that relies on the sun is a sundial, which is a flat surface with
a stick poking up vertically out of it. As the earth spins, giving the
illusion that it is moving around the earth (which it isn't), the shadow of
the stick which appears on the opposite side of the stick to where the sun
is shining moves around, looking like an analogue watch face with a single
hand.

Next we have multiple coordinate systems:

The system we deal with on the earth is the polar coordinate system. You
have a longitude and a latitude reading, which as far as I know mark
coordinates from the centre of the earth. Let's forget that one for now,
other than to say that's how GPS systems know where you are.

The one you're talking about with x, y, and possibly z is what I believe is
called the cartesian coordinates system. The reason the implementation of
that one is so inconsistent is that you can define the coordinates however
you like. The most common I have seen has east as increasing x while west
decreases it, and north as increasing y as south decreases it. Up increases
z while down decreases it.

Whether or not 0, 0 is the centre of a thing, or the southwest corner is
entirely dependent on the mapping system, usually as a product of how
simple the creator of the game wants the coordinate system to be. In
mathematics, the centre of a graph, AKA the origin lies at coordinates 0, 0.

If you're using open AL I believe north is positive y, and z is east and
west, but honestly, it's all baffling, because it can be whatever the coder
wants it to be. Swamp has the worst implementation IMHO, where I believe
north is positive y, and east is positive x... Completely against most
other systems (unless I'm biased).

If you can get hold of a full circle protractor, that may help, if you know
what the lines mean. If you imagine you're standing in the hole at the
centre, then to your right is 90 degrees of you, behind is 180, and left is
270. Right might not always be east, unless you're currently facing north.

You face north, 90 degrees (going clockwise) is east, south is 180, and
west is 270. If you turn 90 degrees to your right and face east, then the
next 90 degrees is south at 180. Turn a further 45, then 90 degrees to your
right is now 225 degrees southwest.

This is why most 2d audio games pretend you're facing north the whole time.
That doesn't work in real life, because you don't walk only forwards and
backwards, then sidestep down adjacent hallways.

Coordinate and directions systems are only as complex as the information
you're trying to convey. You probably won't find your average FPS player
talking about polar coordinates because they primarily care about 2d;
particularly in audio gaming. Similarly, I'd bet the microsoft flight
simulator uses polar coordinates, because they're trying to convey more
information in a more concise manner than cartezian allows.

Let's pretend for a terrible second that we could move through time. Then
we'd need a coordinates system that would be exponentially worse, because
you'd need a way of tracking a position in space and time (4d), and take
into account galactic drift and all that good stuff.

Think that's all the points I wanted to cover. Sorry for the massively long
post.

Really interesting thread people. I personally find it fascinating to hear
others' difficulties with spatial awareness, as it's a topic which
fascinates me.

Also, if anyone is more mathematically minded than me, please feel free to
correct any mistakes I've made. Most of the stuff I know about trig is in
the form of formulae that I've copied from other people. I know how to use
them in code, but I'm not entirely sure of the maths behind them.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 at 19:15, Damien Garwood  wrote:

> Hi,
> This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to realise just
> how complicated spatial awareness can actually be.
> This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only managed A
> Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a reflex game. It
> says north, you turn around until it says north. Even then though,
> someone had to tell me that. I have no real understanding as to what
> that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times when you can't rely
> on beacons to get you places (like the 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Damien Garwood]

Hi,
This will be quite a long message, because I'm starting to realise just 
how complicated spatial awareness can actually be.
This is a thing I've been struggling with for years. I only managed A 
Hero's Call because following a beacon is like playing a reflex game. It 
says north, you turn around until it says north. Even then though, 
someone had to tell me that. I have no real understanding as to what 
that means or where I'm going. In fact, during times when you can't rely 
on beacons to get you places (like the goblin campsites and so on), 
someone actually had to do that for me!
As for Tank Commander, if it weren't for Raul's playthrough, I would 
have never beaten it.
Same in the real world, I always struggled with mobility. When I learned 
a route it was a case of remembering a set of instructions. That's why I 
often call it the "Bop-it dance" or the "Robot's dance". Think about 
it...Walk 20, turn right, walk 10...Just a glorified algorithm.
If someone tells me to try and do the route in reverse, I wouldn't have 
a clue.
You tell me to turn right, and I can do it. You ask me what's to the 
left of me, or what direction are the stairs from my front door, I'd 
have no idea, without physically going there. When my mum used to tell 
me to get out of the car and walk round the back, I wouldn't know what 
direction that was, because once I'm out of the car my direction has 
changed. And then there's the big one. If cars are moving forwards then 
why do they pan left to right? Or, if I'm sat in a vehicle that's 
reversing, why does it feel like it's moving forwards? What am I told? 
Surprise surprise, it's to do with directions again. And they all have 
one thing in common - it's the direction your facing.
I always thought that, although I could move in a given direction, I 
always struggled when I faced a different direction to what I'm used to.
My mum disagrees, and puts it like this: I don't have any "mental 
mapping skills". Thinking about it, I guess I can say that's accurate.
I never know where I am relative to other things, or where they are 
relative to me (Unless of course I can reach out and physically touch it).
I guess that's why I wasn't taught other forms of navigation. compass 
directions are just a series of meaningless words to me. All I know is 
that the compass has something to do with the sun.
And don't even get me started on the clockface...When I tried 3d 
Velocity and it told me there was an enemy at 06:00, I actually went 
looking in the manual for a way to check the gametime! Of course there's 
nothing in there, then someone corrected me and said, no, it's 
referencing direction, not time. As far as I know, I hit a button on my 
clock or computer and it tells me the time. What on earth has that got 
to do with directions? I guess the only thing I can think of is that 
they say the past is behind you and the future is in front...Headache 
tablets anyone?
I've also seen things like turning to 90 or 160 (they just sound like 
arbitrary numbers to me). Eurofly deals with latitude longitude and 
altitude. There just seems to be so much to consider with space.
I'd just say give me an x and a y coordinate. But then I've seen that in 
different ways (0 0 being bottom left in some cases, and top left in 
others, and then someone told me that could also refer to the centre 
under some circumstances as well). Also I've had disputes in the past as 
to whether the Y coordinate represents forwards and backwards, or up and 
down. I always thought z was up and down, but they'd argue that when 
you're talking 2d, y is up and down. But I thought if you're working 
with 2d, you're talking about something that's flat (unless of course 
you're playing BK3!)
Then, as if that wasn't enough, even my certainty about up and down came 
into question a few months ago when I learned that the world was just a 
big ball. In that case, people on the other side of the ball would say 
that their up was our down...And then they told me the earth is 
spinning, so our directions are always changing anyway...Sheesh! Thank 
goodness we don't have that level of complexity in games!
Honestly. Sometimes I think I ought to have a physics degree if I'm 
going to understand all this! And there was me thinking that spatial 
awareness was meant to be a basic skill.
As it is, I'm determined to learn this. I've gone six or seven years 
without any mobility training now because I just can't get my head 
around it. Now I'm trying again, and I thought that if I can understand 
how these games work, maybe it will improve my mental mapping skills and 
thus my mobility training, and stop everyone getting impatient with me 
and telling me what an idiot or slow learner I am.

Cheers,
Damien.

On 27/07/2020 04:08 pm, Luke Hewitt wrote:
I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my ability to 
navigate in games.


When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I was having 
trouble, and it wasn't until I 

Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

If only life provided such coordinates. :)

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 at 16:08, Luke Hewitt  wrote:

> I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my ability to
> navigate in games.
>
> When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I was having
> trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the physical spacial
> awareness test myself that I managed to get my head around the idea,
> since my own comprehension of space is actually pretty crappy.
>
>
> What I do do  though, both in games and rl, is to use landmarks as
> guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what direction I have to
> go from such and such is often a good way around.
>
>
> A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get into that game, but
> I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources of the corridors and
> many of the tools already provided like coordinates and the reminders of
> where I've gone before, helped considerably.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> Dark.
>
>
> 
>
>

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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Luke Hewitt]

I've found myself, that practicing has actually improved my ability to 
navigate in games.


When I started with shades of doom and gma tank commander, I was having 
trouble, and it wasn't until I thought out the physical spacial 
awareness test myself that I managed to get my head around the idea, 
since my own comprehension of space is actually pretty crappy.



What I do do  though, both in games and rl, is to use landmarks as 
guides, sound sources, smells, and working out what direction I have to 
go from such and such is often a good way around.



A hero's call I can't speak about as I've yet to get into that game, but 
I know in shades of doom, using the sound sources of the corridors and 
many of the tools already provided like coordinates and the reminders of 
where I've gone before, helped considerably.



All the best,


Dark.


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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

Hi,
You're absolutely right, we should be being a little more sensitive. I
sincerely hope I was not one of the people who gave off the afore mentioned
attitude. I do have a habit of doing that when I don't mean to, so I'm
really sorry if I caused any offense.

Also... I think statistics show that more cars bump into each other when
turning than we'd like to admit haha.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 at 14:32, Jessica Hodges  wrote:

> Hello:
> I have admittedly been watching this thread a little carefully, and have
> been impressed at the ingenuity of some of the helpful ideas. However, I
> have also seen, I think, a rather unfortunate amount of, "Duh, this
> should be obvious." While I recognize that cardinal directions,
> compasses, and on a broader level, spatial understanding, are concepts
> that are second nature in simplicity to many, I'd caution that this is
> not the case for all, perhaps as proved by the fact that this is a topic
> to begin with.
>  There are many reasons, neurological and otherwise, why someone
> might have trouble with ideas and understandings related to things in
> space. I speak to you as one of those people. No matter how much
> training I have received, I still have very limited comprehension of the
> way cardinal directions change and interact as you move in relation to
> you, why crossing walks form squares when two intersecting lines make an
> X, and why, when cars are on the road, they don't run into each other
> when turning. Though you have only my word on this, I can safely say
> that I have been blind since birth and have had many lessons throughout
> my life that have improved this very little, and I have been told this
> is quite common with my eye condition. On the gaming side, I gave up on
> a hero's call when I got lost for two hours in someone's back yard, and
> generally actively avoid games in which radar mapping, heavy cardinal
> directions,  and complex spatial awareness become necessary. So I beg
> people, in this day and age of inclusion, to temper dismissive responses
> to a very real, and I can imagine very frustrating, question from
> someone who wishes to help someone else enjoy a game. To the original
> poster, I hope that you find success with answering this question, and
> that both of you end up having a blast.
> May everyone have lots of fun playing, and forgive me for not speaking
> on this list more often.
> Jessica.
>
>  On 7/27/2020 7:21 AM, Luke Hewitt wrote:
> > Simple test, ask him about physical space.
> >
> > EG if your standing in your living room, with the sofa behind you and
> > the door to your left, and you turn to face the door, the sofa is now
> > on your left.
> >
> >
> > Better still if he has an Iphone or other smart phone device get him
> > to activate the compass and turn around physically.
> >
> >
> > for me at least, once I understood the physical difference between
> > absolute directions and where I was facing relative to them, getting
> > the compass in shades of doom and other first person titles was no
> > problem.
> >
> >
> > Hth.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> >
> > Dark.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>
>

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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Liam Erven]

I too have a major issue with spacial awareness. I'm able to understand 
it from a theoretical perspective, but I get turned around and lost very 
easily.



On 7/27/2020 7:59 AM, Jessica Hodges wrote:

Hello:
I have admittedly been watching this thread a little carefully, and 
have been impressed at the ingenuity of some of the helpful ideas. 
However, I have also seen, I think, a rather unfortunate amount of, 
"Duh, this should be obvious." While I recognize that cardinal 
directions, compasses, and on a broader level, spatial understanding, 
are concepts that are second nature in simplicity to many, I'd caution 
that this is not the case for all, perhaps as proved by the fact that 
this is a topic to begin with.
    There are many reasons, neurological and otherwise, why someone 
might have trouble with ideas and understandings related to things in 
space. I speak to you as one of those people. No matter how much 
training I have received, I still have very limited comprehension of 
the way cardinal directions change and interact as you move in 
relation to you, why crossing walks form squares when two intersecting 
lines make an X, and why, when cars are on the road, they don't run 
into each other when turning. Though you have only my word on this, I 
can safely say that I have been blind since birth and have had many 
lessons throughout my life that have improved this very little, and I 
have been told this is quite common with my eye condition. On the 
gaming side, I gave up on a hero's call when I got lost for two hours 
in someone's back yard, and generally actively avoid games in which 
radar mapping, heavy cardinal directions,  and complex spatial 
awareness become necessary. So I beg people, in this day and age of 
inclusion, to temper dismissive responses to a very real, and I can 
imagine very frustrating, question from someone who wishes to help 
someone else enjoy a game. To the original poster, I hope that you 
find success with answering this question, and that both of you end up 
having a blast.
May everyone have lots of fun playing, and forgive me for not speaking 
on this list more often.

Jessica.

                On 7/27/2020 7:21 AM, Luke Hewitt wrote:

Simple test, ask him about physical space.

EG if your standing in your living room, with the sofa behind you and 
the door to your left, and you turn to face the door, the sofa is now 
on your left.



Better still if he has an Iphone or other smart phone device get him 
to activate the compass and turn around physically.



for me at least, once I understood the physical difference between 
absolute directions and where I was facing relative to them, getting 
the compass in shades of doom and other first person titles was no 
problem.



Hth.


All the best,


Dark.










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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Jessica Hodges]

Hello:
I have admittedly been watching this thread a little carefully, and have 
been impressed at the ingenuity of some of the helpful ideas. However, I 
have also seen, I think, a rather unfortunate amount of, "Duh, this 
should be obvious." While I recognize that cardinal directions, 
compasses, and on a broader level, spatial understanding, are concepts 
that are second nature in simplicity to many, I'd caution that this is 
not the case for all, perhaps as proved by the fact that this is a topic 
to begin with.
    There are many reasons, neurological and otherwise, why someone 
might have trouble with ideas and understandings related to things in 
space. I speak to you as one of those people. No matter how much 
training I have received, I still have very limited comprehension of the 
way cardinal directions change and interact as you move in relation to 
you, why crossing walks form squares when two intersecting lines make an 
X, and why, when cars are on the road, they don't run into each other 
when turning. Though you have only my word on this, I can safely say 
that I have been blind since birth and have had many lessons throughout 
my life that have improved this very little, and I have been told this 
is quite common with my eye condition. On the gaming side, I gave up on 
a hero's call when I got lost for two hours in someone's back yard, and 
generally actively avoid games in which radar mapping, heavy cardinal 
directions,  and complex spatial awareness become necessary. So I beg 
people, in this day and age of inclusion, to temper dismissive responses 
to a very real, and I can imagine very frustrating, question from 
someone who wishes to help someone else enjoy a game. To the original 
poster, I hope that you find success with answering this question, and 
that both of you end up having a blast.
May everyone have lots of fun playing, and forgive me for not speaking 
on this list more often.

Jessica.

                On 7/27/2020 7:21 AM, Luke Hewitt wrote:

Simple test, ask him about physical space.

EG if your standing in your living room, with the sofa behind you and 
the door to your left, and you turn to face the door, the sofa is now 
on your left.



Better still if he has an Iphone or other smart phone device get him 
to activate the compass and turn around physically.



for me at least, once I understood the physical difference between 
absolute directions and where I was facing relative to them, getting 
the compass in shades of doom and other first person titles was no 
problem.



Hth.


All the best,


Dark.






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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Luke Hewitt]

Simple test, ask him about physical space.

EG if your standing in your living room, with the sofa behind you and 
the door to your left, and you turn to face the door, the sofa is now on 
your left.



Better still if he has an Iphone or other smart phone device get him to 
activate the compass and turn around physically.



for me at least, once I understood the physical difference between 
absolute directions and where I was facing relative to them, getting the 
compass in shades of doom and other first person titles was no problem.



Hth.


All the best,


Dark.


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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Charles Rivard]

>From Nort, move clockwise to East, SouthWest and back to North.  
>Counterclockwise would from North, West,South, East and back to North, just 
>like traveling streets.


If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!

From: Gary Price(Gmail) 
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:30 AM
To: Blind Gamers Group 
Subject: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

Morning everyone!
Please can anyone come up with any ideas.

I'm trying to help a new friend Damien Garwood complete level one on Shades of 
Doom.

But he can't understand the basic points of the compass. North, South, East and 
West.

My friend Chris Graham in Australia came up with the idea of a box.
This he gets I think, but what's really confusing him is the fact you've got to 
walk forward to go in a certain direction.

When I mentioned the box thing on WhatsApp he responded yeh, but you can't turn 
forwards or backwards.

Another thing Chris Graham came up with was the four basic directions, up down 
left and right.
Up North, down South, left West and right East.
I think he understands but I'm not sure.

How else can I explain it? Any ideas welcomed! I'm stumped.
Thanks look forward to hopefully some responses!
.
-- 

Gary Price.
This is my backup Email address.
gazwpr...@gmail.com

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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Uniquely Able]

What's his confusion? They're the cardinal directions.


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On 7/26/20, Chris Norman via groups.io
 wrote:
> If you're facing north, east is to your right, and west is to your left
> (left sort of rhymes with west).
>
> Never Eat Shreaded Wheat is how I was told to remember it, for north, east,
> south, west. That or Naughty Elephants Squirt Water.
>
> Could imagine standing at the centre of a cross for those of a religious
> persuasion, the centre of a crossroads for travel enthusiasts, or lying
> flat on your back with your legs tied together and your arms stretched out
> to either side with someone standing on your belly button for those of a
> ... whatever.
>
> All of those things describe the "cardinal" directions nicely. The
> confusing bit comes when you're facing any direction that isn't north.
>
> Maybe get this person to build a mockup of the compass with pens, wiki
> sticks, spaghetti, or whatever else takes their fancy. Keep their finger on
> one of the ends, or somehow mark it differently to show direction facing,
> then spin it and say the directions out loud? Clockwise takes you through
> east, south, westand finally back to north, while anticlockwise takes you
> through west, south, east, then back to north.
>
> If you need some kind of way to remember the directions backwards, come up
> with some kind of rhyme (the ruder the better in my experience).
>
> Hope this rambling helps somewhat.
>
> Take care,
>
> Chris Norman
>
>
>
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 at 07:31, Gary Price(Gmail) 
> wrote:
>
>> Morning everyone!
>> Please can anyone come up with any ideas.
>>
>> I'm trying to help a new friend Damien Garwood complete level one on
>> Shades of Doom.
>>
>> But he can't understand the basic points of the compass. North, South,
>> East and West.
>>
>> My friend Chris Graham in Australia came up with the idea of a box.
>> This he gets I think, but what's really confusing him is the fact you've
>> got to walk forward to go in a certain direction.
>>
>> When I mentioned the box thing on WhatsApp he responded yeh, but you
>> can't
>> turn forwards or backwards.
>>
>> Another thing Chris Graham came up with was the four basic directions, up
>> down left and right.
>> Up North, down South, left West and right East.
>> I think he understands but I'm not sure.
>>
>> How else can I explain it? Any ideas welcomed! I'm stumped.
>> Thanks look forward to hopefully some responses!
>> .
>> --
>> Gary Price.
>> This is my backup Email address.
>> gazwpr...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> 
>
>


-- 
"If you want lightning to strike twice, you need to plant more
lightning rods,"-Keven J. Anderson

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Re: [blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Chris Norman via groups.io]

If you're facing north, east is to your right, and west is to your left
(left sort of rhymes with west).

Never Eat Shreaded Wheat is how I was told to remember it, for north, east,
south, west. That or Naughty Elephants Squirt Water.

Could imagine standing at the centre of a cross for those of a religious
persuasion, the centre of a crossroads for travel enthusiasts, or lying
flat on your back with your legs tied together and your arms stretched out
to either side with someone standing on your belly button for those of a
... whatever.

All of those things describe the "cardinal" directions nicely. The
confusing bit comes when you're facing any direction that isn't north.

Maybe get this person to build a mockup of the compass with pens, wiki
sticks, spaghetti, or whatever else takes their fancy. Keep their finger on
one of the ends, or somehow mark it differently to show direction facing,
then spin it and say the directions out loud? Clockwise takes you through
east, south, westand finally back to north, while anticlockwise takes you
through west, south, east, then back to north.

If you need some kind of way to remember the directions backwards, come up
with some kind of rhyme (the ruder the better in my experience).

Hope this rambling helps somewhat.

Take care,

Chris Norman



On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 at 07:31, Gary Price(Gmail)  wrote:

> Morning everyone!
> Please can anyone come up with any ideas.
>
> I'm trying to help a new friend Damien Garwood complete level one on
> Shades of Doom.
>
> But he can't understand the basic points of the compass. North, South,
> East and West.
>
> My friend Chris Graham in Australia came up with the idea of a box.
> This he gets I think, but what's really confusing him is the fact you've
> got to walk forward to go in a certain direction.
>
> When I mentioned the box thing on WhatsApp he responded yeh, but you can't
> turn forwards or backwards.
>
> Another thing Chris Graham came up with was the four basic directions, up
> down left and right.
> Up North, down South, left West and right East.
> I think he understands but I'm not sure.
>
> How else can I explain it? Any ideas welcomed! I'm stumped.
> Thanks look forward to hopefully some responses!
> .
> --
> Gary Price.
> This is my backup Email address.
> gazwpr...@gmail.com
> 
>
>

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[blind-gamers] Explaining the compass, any ideas?

[Gary Price(Gmail)]

Morning everyone!
Please can anyone come up with any ideas.

I'm trying to help a new friend Damien Garwood complete level one on Shades
of Doom.

But he can't understand the basic points of the compass. North, South, East
and West.

My friend Chris Graham in Australia came up with the idea of a box.
This he gets I think, but what's really confusing him is the fact you've
got to walk forward to go in a certain direction.

When I mentioned the box thing on WhatsApp he responded yeh, but you can't
turn forwards or backwards.

Another thing Chris Graham came up with was the four basic directions, up
down left and right.
Up North, down South, left West and right East.
I think he understands but I'm not sure.

How else can I explain it? Any ideas welcomed! I'm stumped.
Thanks look forward to hopefully some responses!
.
-- 
Gary Price.
This is my backup Email address.
gazwpr...@gmail.com

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